Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

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Maneki Neko
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Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Maneki Neko » 11 Sep 2018 16:37

St Pauli wrote:Success on the pitch/entertaining football would bring more back, and improve the atmosphere, but personally though I'm not sure I would for the reasons Mags gives.

There is a problem with football generally though. It's too expensive for what it is. As a result the young male teenage fan base will shrink in most clubs year in year out. When you consider all the other entertainment out there for teens, most of it free, or very cheap, and if not, easily obtainable illegally for free with zero chance of getting caught, then shelling out the cost of travel too and entry to a match turns off the young.


tbf isnt it a tenner a game for up to 24 year olds and 100 pound for a season ticket for teens
that's not massively restrictive

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Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Zip » 11 Sep 2018 17:58

Maneki Neko wrote:
St Pauli wrote:Success on the pitch/entertaining football would bring more back, and improve the atmosphere, but personally though I'm not sure I would for the reasons Mags gives.

There is a problem with football generally though. It's too expensive for what it is. As a result the young male teenage fan base will shrink in most clubs year in year out. When you consider all the other entertainment out there for teens, most of it free, or very cheap, and if not, easily obtainable illegally for free with zero chance of getting caught, then shelling out the cost of travel too and entry to a match turns off the young.


tbf isnt it a tenner a game for up to 24 year olds and 100 pound for a season ticket for teens
that's not massively restrictive


Yes it’s great value for younger people. Just to add it’s only £59 for my 15 year old. I don’t think it’s money related at those prices.

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Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Hiram K Hackenbacker » 12 Sep 2018 13:04

Zip wrote:
Maneki Neko wrote:
St Pauli wrote:Success on the pitch/entertaining football would bring more back, and improve the atmosphere, but personally though I'm not sure I would for the reasons Mags gives.

There is a problem with football generally though. It's too expensive for what it is. As a result the young male teenage fan base will shrink in most clubs year in year out. When you consider all the other entertainment out there for teens, most of it free, or very cheap, and if not, easily obtainable illegally for free with zero chance of getting caught, then shelling out the cost of travel too and entry to a match turns off the young.


tbf isnt it a tenner a game for up to 24 year olds and 100 pound for a season ticket for teens
that's not massively restrictive


Yes it’s great value for younger people. Just to add it’s only £59 for my 15 year old. I don’t think it’s money related at those prices.

I agree

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Wimb
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Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Wimb » 14 Sep 2018 12:02

bobby1413 wrote:
Old Man Andrews wrote:Players only want to talk when things are rosey. All of our squad are hiders unfortunately, not one of them can front it up.


I think some would be up for it. Meyler is always responding to sh*tty 12 year olds on twitter who whine at him. I'd rather someone who has been at the club longer do it though.

I also think some would rather engage off twitter and if it was a more organised, professional thing they'd like it. E.g. if in a radio studio they'd have the chance to discuss things and respond in their way, rather than in 140/280 characters on twitter where each word of their response is examined.

If not players then Clement... if not him then second in command... just someone to take the lead and to engage regularly.

Even hearing someone talk about these players regularly would help build a better connection. E.g. knowing what the players are doing in training, how they're getting on, whose the joker of the pack, discussions after the game, their thoughts on the upcoming game.
As host of the earlier quoted 'desperately stage managed' Royal Exchange, I can tell you that there are players happy to talk, to open up and be as honest as realistically possible. We had Dave Edwards come on the show a few days after his red card at Villa and he fronted up. Likewise we had Vito Mannone on after some tough times as well. Could it have been harder hitting? Of course. However, be realistic about what a club is going to put out on its own media channels given the fact that they're still (unfortunately) a business.

Personally I thought we did as good a job in the circumstances and I give the club credit for putting trust in me to ask some tougher questions where appropriate. I didn't feel censored but I'm wise enough to know the rough limits of what I could ask and what a player was likely to answer.

The feedback I got from the players themselves was that they really enjoyed it and found it a good forum to be able to talk a little bit more about their lives beyond 30' post-match soundbites or a news conference. Had/If we keep going, I think the trust levels would also go up and that leads to even more open discussion. So, I really hope we can bring it back and I like to think we'd make it even better if given the opportunity.

In the wider context, as others have pointed out, players often can't win. The Meyler example being the most recent but we've seen the likes of McCleary, Karacan and others all laid into and have their comments and social exchanges blown up by certain 'fans' the second they make minor slip ups. Sure it's often a minority who kick up a stink but they tend to be the most vocal and if you were a player why would you bother?

It's impossible to understate just how much social media has changed the game. Everyone has a recording device on them, everyone has access to social media where their comments can be seen be millions of people. Even a decade ago, if you said something mildly controversial on BBC Berks, it would probably fly under the radar of a lot of people. Likewise, something in the Evening Post or the Chronicle could be quickly glossed over. Now, it lingers and everyone gets to see any piece of dirty laundry, even when in the greater context, that laundry isn't that dirty. Everything is archived and burying any regrettable moment of your past is getting harder and harder.

So, the risk vs. reward for players being open via the media has swung totally towards the risk. Yes there are some who break the mould and take those risks but its easy to see why the majority stick to the 'boring', safe and mundane.

Yet this goes back to the whole success on the pitch thing. I don't recall many of these things being brought up as issues in 2011/12 or 2010/11 when we had our most recent periods of entertaining success. Everything gets magnified and everything feels much more of a chore/problem when results are bad or performances less entertaining.

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Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Old Man Andrews » 14 Sep 2018 12:05

Wimb wrote:
bobby1413 wrote:
Old Man Andrews wrote:Players only want to talk when things are rosey. All of our squad are hiders unfortunately, not one of them can front it up.


I think some would be up for it. Meyler is always responding to sh*tty 12 year olds on twitter who whine at him. I'd rather someone who has been at the club longer do it though.

I also think some would rather engage off twitter and if it was a more organised, professional thing they'd like it. E.g. if in a radio studio they'd have the chance to discuss things and respond in their way, rather than in 140/280 characters on twitter where each word of their response is examined.

If not players then Clement... if not him then second in command... just someone to take the lead and to engage regularly.

Even hearing someone talk about these players regularly would help build a better connection. E.g. knowing what the players are doing in training, how they're getting on, whose the joker of the pack, discussions after the game, their thoughts on the upcoming game.
As host of the earlier quoted 'desperately stage managed' Royal Exchange, I can tell you that there are players happy to talk, to open up and be as honest as realistically possible. We had Dave Edwards come on the show a few days after his red card at Villa and he fronted up. Likewise we had Vito Mannone on after some tough times as well. Could it have been harder hitting? Of course. However, be realistic about what a club is going to put out on its own media channels given the fact that they're still (unfortunately) a business.


The feedback I got from the players themselves was that they really enjoyed it and found it a good forum to be able to talk a little bit more about their lives beyond 30' post-match soundbites or a news conference. Had/If we keep going, I think the trust levels would also go up and that leads to even more open discussion. So, I really hope we can bring it back and I like to think we'd make it even better if given the opportunity.


So why was the plug pulled by the club? Are those at the top so out of touch with the supporters that they think we don't want or deserve to hear from the players on a regular basis? Was it a funding issue? Sounds to me like a ball was well and truly dropped on this.


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Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Tilehurstsouthbank » 14 Sep 2018 12:33

Old Man Andrews wrote:
Wimb wrote:
bobby1413 wrote:
I think some would be up for it. Meyler is always responding to sh*tty 12 year olds on twitter who whine at him. I'd rather someone who has been at the club longer do it though.

I also think some would rather engage off twitter and if it was a more organised, professional thing they'd like it. E.g. if in a radio studio they'd have the chance to discuss things and respond in their way, rather than in 140/280 characters on twitter where each word of their response is examined.

If not players then Clement... if not him then second in command... just someone to take the lead and to engage regularly.

Even hearing someone talk about these players regularly would help build a better connection. E.g. knowing what the players are doing in training, how they're getting on, whose the joker of the pack, discussions after the game, their thoughts on the upcoming game.
As host of the earlier quoted 'desperately stage managed' Royal Exchange, I can tell you that there are players happy to talk, to open up and be as honest as realistically possible. We had Dave Edwards come on the show a few days after his red card at Villa and he fronted up. Likewise we had Vito Mannone on after some tough times as well. Could it have been harder hitting? Of course. However, be realistic about what a club is going to put out on its own media channels given the fact that they're still (unfortunately) a business.


The feedback I got from the players themselves was that they really enjoyed it and found it a good forum to be able to talk a little bit more about their lives beyond 30' post-match soundbites or a news conference. Had/If we keep going, I think the trust levels would also go up and that leads to even more open discussion. So, I really hope we can bring it back and I like to think we'd make it even better if given the opportunity.


So why was the plug pulled by the club? Are those at the top so out of touch with the supporters that they think we don't want or deserve to hear from the players on a regular basis? Was it a funding issue? Sounds to me like a ball was well and truly dropped on this.


Indeed. Would be good to see this again and would certainly go a long way to building bridges between players and fans. Now if we could only filter out the cretins....
Last edited by Tilehurstsouthbank on 14 Sep 2018 15:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Wimb » 14 Sep 2018 14:34

Tilehurstsouthbank wrote:
Old Man Andrews wrote:
Wimb wrote:As host of the earlier quoted 'desperately stage managed' Royal Exchange, I can tell you that there are players happy to talk, to open up and be as honest as realistically possible. We had Dave Edwards come on the show a few days after his red card at Villa and he fronted up. Likewise we had Vito Mannone on after some tough times as well. Could it have been harder hitting? Of course. However, be realistic about what a club is going to put out on its own media channels given the fact that they're still (unfortunately) a business.


The feedback I got from the players themselves was that they really enjoyed it and found it a good forum to be able to talk a little bit more about their lives beyond 30' post-match soundbites or a news conference. Had/If we keep going, I think the trust levels would also go up and that leads to even more open discussion. So, I really hope we can bring it back and I like to think we'd make it even better if given the opportunity.


So why was the plug pulled by the club? Are those at the top so out of touch with the supporters that they think we don't want or deserve to hear from the players on a regular basis? Was it a funding issue? Sounds to me like a ball was well and truly dropped on this.


Indeed. Would be good to see this again and would certainly go a long way to building bridges between players and fans. No if we could only filter out the cretins....


Thanks for the kind words TSB

OMA all I know is that the show is on hiatus for reasons beyond my control. Whether it’s budget/resources/time I have no honest idea what the main holdup is.

The club do put out regular interviews and content with players via the matchday programme, iFollow the website and social media so there are already plenty of outlets. I don’t think for a second there’s an arrogance that the players shouldn’t have to speak to fans.

As mentioned, I’m keen to do the show and I’m told the club do want to bring it back. I just don’t know when and if that will ultimately happen. I do think that if it’s brought back the club want to do it properly with regular time slots/scheduling so if we do come back then timing is important.

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Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Sutekh » 14 Sep 2018 14:43

Tilehurstsouthbank wrote:
Old Man Andrews wrote:
Wimb wrote:As host of the earlier quoted 'desperately stage managed' Royal Exchange, I can tell you that there are players happy to talk, to open up and be as honest as realistically possible. We had Dave Edwards come on the show a few days after his red card at Villa and he fronted up. Likewise we had Vito Mannone on after some tough times as well. Could it have been harder hitting? Of course. However, be realistic about what a club is going to put out on its own media channels given the fact that they're still (unfortunately) a business.


The feedback I got from the players themselves was that they really enjoyed it and found it a good forum to be able to talk a little bit more about their lives beyond 30' post-match soundbites or a news conference. Had/If we keep going, I think the trust levels would also go up and that leads to even more open discussion. So, I really hope we can bring it back and I like to think we'd make it even better if given the opportunity.


So why was the plug pulled by the club? Are those at the top so out of touch with the supporters that they think we don't want or deserve to hear from the players on a regular basis? Was it a funding issue? Sounds to me like a ball was well and truly dropped on this.


Indeed. Would be good to see this again and would certainly go a long way to building bridges between players and fans. No if we could only filter out the cretins....


STAR sometimes do forums with 2/3 players and the questions asked will be anything from the standard "filler" like who/what has been the biggest influence to the more searching things like how are things going and where do you think you can improve. Likewise there is the same element of trust so players are a bit more open and less on their guard. Be great if there could be one at some point later this season as I think it would be good to be able to get the player's take with things being so much more of a struggle - but that'll all come down to whether the club are happy to put anyone up for it (always presuming STAR have the time and resource to organise of course).

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Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by STAR Liaison » 14 Sep 2018 14:48

We are planning to have a Fans forum with some current players in November.


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Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Old Man Andrews » 14 Sep 2018 14:51

Anyone else get the impression Sutekh might be STAR Liason too? That was far too seemless of a link. :D

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Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by KC Royal » 16 Sep 2018 15:41

Great thread.

A few years ago my personal circumstances changed and so I don't plan to go to as many games as I used to. I've only been to two games since Stam came (although there were numerous games that I wanted to go to but couldn't for whatever reason - though for balance I was lucky to go to as many as I did in 2015/16). This season I haven't even considered when i'll go next. It doesn't help that there aren't any appealing away trips (I wouldn't get a ticket for Brentford), and the car parking issues definitely don't help either.

Anyone think that the success of Maidenhead in the last couple of years has played a part too? I've heard/read about several fans who've been to Maidenhead games in that time, and not just when we've not had a game on.

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Re: Where have the hardcore gone? Culture loss.

by Snowflake Royal » 16 Sep 2018 18:55

Wimb wrote:
bobby1413 wrote:
Old Man Andrews wrote:Players only want to talk when things are rosey. All of our squad are hiders unfortunately, not one of them can front it up.


I think some would be up for it. Meyler is always responding to sh*tty 12 year olds on twitter who whine at him. I'd rather someone who has been at the club longer do it though.

I also think some would rather engage off twitter and if it was a more organised, professional thing they'd like it. E.g. if in a radio studio they'd have the chance to discuss things and respond in their way, rather than in 140/280 characters on twitter where each word of their response is examined.

If not players then Clement... if not him then second in command... just someone to take the lead and to engage regularly.

Even hearing someone talk about these players regularly would help build a better connection. E.g. knowing what the players are doing in training, how they're getting on, whose the joker of the pack, discussions after the game, their thoughts on the upcoming game.
As host of the earlier quoted 'desperately stage managed' Royal Exchange, I can tell you that there are players happy to talk, to open up and be as honest as realistically possible. We had Dave Edwards come on the show a few days after his red card at Villa and he fronted up. Likewise we had Vito Mannone on after some tough times as well. Could it have been harder hitting? Of course. However, be realistic about what a club is going to put out on its own media channels given the fact that they're still (unfortunately) a business.

Personally I thought we did as good a job in the circumstances and I give the club credit for putting trust in me to ask some tougher questions where appropriate. I didn't feel censored but I'm wise enough to know the rough limits of what I could ask and what a player was likely to answer.

The feedback I got from the players themselves was that they really enjoyed it and found it a good forum to be able to talk a little bit more about their lives beyond 30' post-match soundbites or a news conference. Had/If we keep going, I think the trust levels would also go up and that leads to even more open discussion. So, I really hope we can bring it back and I like to think we'd make it even better if given the opportunity.

In the wider context, as others have pointed out, players often can't win. The Meyler example being the most recent but we've seen the likes of McCleary, Karacan and others all laid into and have their comments and social exchanges blown up by certain 'fans' the second they make minor slip ups. Sure it's often a minority who kick up a stink but they tend to be the most vocal and if you were a player why would you bother?

It's impossible to understate just how much social media has changed the game. Everyone has a recording device on them, everyone has access to social media where their comments can be seen be millions of people. Even a decade ago, if you said something mildly controversial on BBC Berks, it would probably fly under the radar of a lot of people. Likewise, something in the Evening Post or the Chronicle could be quickly glossed over. Now, it lingers and everyone gets to see any piece of dirty laundry, even when in the greater context, that laundry isn't that dirty. Everything is archived and burying any regrettable moment of your past is getting harder and harder.

So, the risk vs. reward for players being open via the media has swung totally towards the risk. Yes there are some who break the mould and take those risks but its easy to see why the majority stick to the 'boring', safe and mundane.

Yet this goes back to the whole success on the pitch thing. I don't recall many of these things being brought up as issues in 2011/12 or 2010/11 when we had our most recent periods of entertaining success. Everything gets magnified and everything feels much more of a chore/problem when results are bad or performances less entertaining.

Good post

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