RUMOUR - Lewis baker

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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by Vision » 10 Jan 2019 09:43

Hound Think there is a fair amount of complacency in the two signings and a lack of acceptance as to where we are in the table. I like the fact that Gomes has a clear idea of how he wants to play - but making up a 5 point gap and playing your way out of the bottom 3 - it’s certainly brave, but I don’t think will be successful

I think a GK who can pass the ball will be on the way. Walker will go along with Kelly (Zwolle?)/Bacuna. Interesting after that.


Little point in the club appointing Gomes and then expecting him to go all "Pulis" though surely.

Like it or not, Gomes has a way he wants us to play and we've committed ourselves to it. In that sense if one of the two signings so far fulfils the potential they showed at a younger age (Baker in particular) and we can find that all elusive goalscorer for this system then it will give us our best chance to survive.

Also this is still a squad who from a footballing point of view is far more suited to how Gomes wants to play than say a Pulis or a Parkinson. Our best bet is to utilise what we already have and supplement it. If we want to be more direct then I'd suggest we'd need even more of an overhaul in personnel than we do right now.

I don't think anyone would deny for the last season and a half (probably even earlier) we simply haven't created enough chances for the strikers we have. Adding these two attempts to address that. Of course it's all moot if we don't bring in ( or develop from within) a goalscorer who also fits the style and can benefit from it. But signing these two players doesn't mean that player won't arrive or emerge.

FWIW, as much as I realise this is a minority view, I think McNulty might well have been that player but I guess we'll never know.

I'd also like to see how Barrow would get on down the middle but that's even more of a minority view ;-)

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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by Old Man Andrews » 10 Jan 2019 09:47

Vision
Hound Think there is a fair amount of complacency in the two signings and a lack of acceptance as to where we are in the table. I like the fact that Gomes has a clear idea of how he wants to play - but making up a 5 point gap and playing your way out of the bottom 3 - it’s certainly brave, but I don’t think will be successful

I think a GK who can pass the ball will be on the way. Walker will go along with Kelly (Zwolle?)/Bacuna. Interesting after that.


FWIW, as much as I realise this is a minority view, I think McNulty might well have been that player but I guess we'll never know.


For me there are some players you can look at and just know they are not the required level, McNulty is one of them.

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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by Vision » 10 Jan 2019 09:52

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Hound Think there is a fair amount of complacency in the two signings and a lack of acceptance as to where we are in the table. I like the fact that Gomes has a clear idea of how he wants to play - but making up a 5 point gap and playing your way out of the bottom 3 - it’s certainly brave, but I don’t think will be successful

I think a GK who can pass the ball will be on the way. Walker will go along with Kelly (Zwolle?)/Bacuna. Interesting after that.


FWIW, as much as I realise this is a minority view, I think McNulty might well have been that player but I guess we'll never know.


For me there are some players you can look at and just know they are not the required level, McNulty is one of them.


Interesting. From what we saw of him I'd say he was one of the few who I believe definitely has it from an ability point of view for this level. Easily a better "first touch" than the likes of Baldock/Meite/Bod and showed signs of creativity too. His goalscoring record in the level below shows he's got finishing ability too.

It may be that there is something of an attitude/training issue ( I haven't heard anything like that though) but in terms of ability I think he's got something. certainly not one I'd say didn't look the required level.

But opinions eh?

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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by leon » 10 Jan 2019 09:53

Vision
Hound Think there is a fair amount of complacency in the two signings and a lack of acceptance as to where we are in the table. I like the fact that Gomes has a clear idea of how he wants to play - but making up a 5 point gap and playing your way out of the bottom 3 - it’s certainly brave, but I don’t think will be successful

I think a GK who can pass the ball will be on the way. Walker will go along with Kelly (Zwolle?)/Bacuna. Interesting after that.


Little point in the club appointing Gomes and then expecting him to go all "Pulis" though surely.

Like it or not, Gomes has a way he wants us to play and we've committed ourselves to it. In that sense if one of the two signings so far fulfils the potential they showed at a younger age (Baker in particular) and we can find that all elusive goalscorer for this system then it will give us our best chance to survive.

Also this is still a squad who from a footballing point of view is far more suited to how Gomes wants to play than say a Pulis or a Parkinson. Our best bet is to utilise what we already have and supplement it. If we want to be more direct then I'd suggest we'd need even more of an overhaul in personnel than we do right now.

I don't think anyone would deny for the last season and a half (probably even earlier) we simply haven't created enough chances for the strikers we have. Adding these two attempts to address that. Of course it's all moot if we don't bring in ( or develop from within) a goalscorer who also fits the style and can benefit from it. But signing these two players doesn't mean that player won't arrive or emerge.

FWIW, as much as I realise this is a minority view, I think McNulty might well have been that player but I guess we'll never know.

I'd also like to see how Barrow would get on down the middle but that's even more of a minority view ;-)


Whilst I get your points re playing style (but not Barrow...) we're not even doing the basics right. I think any decent coach/manager drilling the team could improve that area.

The fear is that Gomes will make the same mistakes that Clement (and to an extent Stam and Clarke) made in not bolstering the defensive side of the midfield (JVdB was just not any good at it) and we'll lose possession and be overrun by teams in the middle.

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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by Old Man Andrews » 10 Jan 2019 09:55

leon
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Hound Think there is a fair amount of complacency in the two signings and a lack of acceptance as to where we are in the table. I like the fact that Gomes has a clear idea of how he wants to play - but making up a 5 point gap and playing your way out of the bottom 3 - it’s certainly brave, but I don’t think will be successful

I think a GK who can pass the ball will be on the way. Walker will go along with Kelly (Zwolle?)/Bacuna. Interesting after that.


Little point in the club appointing Gomes and then expecting him to go all "Pulis" though surely.

Like it or not, Gomes has a way he wants us to play and we've committed ourselves to it. In that sense if one of the two signings so far fulfils the potential they showed at a younger age (Baker in particular) and we can find that all elusive goalscorer for this system then it will give us our best chance to survive.

Also this is still a squad who from a footballing point of view is far more suited to how Gomes wants to play than say a Pulis or a Parkinson. Our best bet is to utilise what we already have and supplement it. If we want to be more direct then I'd suggest we'd need even more of an overhaul in personnel than we do right now.

I don't think anyone would deny for the last season and a half (probably even earlier) we simply haven't created enough chances for the strikers we have. Adding these two attempts to address that. Of course it's all moot if we don't bring in ( or develop from within) a goalscorer who also fits the style and can benefit from it. But signing these two players doesn't mean that player won't arrive or emerge.

FWIW, as much as I realise this is a minority view, I think McNulty might well have been that player but I guess we'll never know.

I'd also like to see how Barrow would get on down the middle but that's even more of a minority view ;-)


Whilst I get your points re playing style (but not Barrow...) we're not even doing the basics right. I think any decent coach/manager drilling the team could improve that area.

The fear is that Gomes will make the same mistakes that Clement (and to an extent Stam and Clarke) made in not bolstering the defensive side of the midfield (JVdB was just not any good at it) and we'll lose possession and be overrun by teams in the middle.


We've had a Danny Williams shaped hole in our team since he left, we miss that player who can do both the defensive and attacking sides of a central midfielder. If we lost the ball Williams could get back to help the defenders he'd then also have the fitness and energy to get forward to support on counter attacks too. We got Bacuna in to do a similar job but he has been a complete flop for me.


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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by Hound » 10 Jan 2019 09:56

leon
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Hound Think there is a fair amount of complacency in the two signings and a lack of acceptance as to where we are in the table. I like the fact that Gomes has a clear idea of how he wants to play - but making up a 5 point gap and playing your way out of the bottom 3 - it’s certainly brave, but I don’t think will be successful

I think a GK who can pass the ball will be on the way. Walker will go along with Kelly (Zwolle?)/Bacuna. Interesting after that.


Little point in the club appointing Gomes and then expecting him to go all "Pulis" though surely.

Like it or not, Gomes has a way he wants us to play and we've committed ourselves to it. In that sense if one of the two signings so far fulfils the potential they showed at a younger age (Baker in particular) and we can find that all elusive goalscorer for this system then it will give us our best chance to survive.

Also this is still a squad who from a footballing point of view is far more suited to how Gomes wants to play than say a Pulis or a Parkinson. Our best bet is to utilise what we already have and supplement it. If we want to be more direct then I'd suggest we'd need even more of an overhaul in personnel than we do right now.

I don't think anyone would deny for the last season and a half (probably even earlier) we simply haven't created enough chances for the strikers we have. Adding these two attempts to address that. Of course it's all moot if we don't bring in ( or develop from within) a goalscorer who also fits the style and can benefit from it. But signing these two players doesn't mean that player won't arrive or emerge.

FWIW, as much as I realise this is a minority view, I think McNulty might well have been that player but I guess we'll never know.

I'd also like to see how Barrow would get on down the middle but that's even more of a minority view ;-)


Whilst I get your points re playing style (but not Barrow...) we're not even doing the basics right. I think any decent coach/manager drilling the team could improve that area.

The fear is that Gomes will make the same mistakes that Clement (and to an extent Stam and Clarke) made in not bolstering the defensive side of the midfield (JVdB was just not any good at it) and we'll lose possession and be overrun by teams in the middle.


Agree Vision, and made a similar point to yours on another thread. At least we are trying to play to a system now, and the signings of Baker, Ejaria and Perreira if he comes, at least show some joined up thinking.

I'd extend the idea of complacency to the selection of Gomes. Its a very brave (or as I say, complacent) idea that we can pass our way out of trouble. It might work - personally think not - but at least we are going full on with one style rather than PC's scattergun hit and hope

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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by stealthpapes » 10 Jan 2019 10:01

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FWIW, as much as I realise this is a minority view, I think McNulty might well have been that player but I guess we'll never know.


For me there are some players you can look at and just know they are not the required level, McNulty is one of them.


Interesting. From what we saw of him I'd say he was one of the few who I believe definitely has it from an ability point of view for this level. Easily a better "first touch" than the likes of Baldock/Meite/Bod and showed signs of creativity too. His goalscoring record in the level below shows he's got finishing ability too.

It may be that there is something of an attitude/training issue ( I haven't heard anything like that though) but in terms of ability I think he's got something. certainly not one I'd say didn't look the required level.

But opinions eh?


Quite. In the games I've seen, admittedly a limited sample, his movement and awareness were of a better standard than most Championship strikers but, in contrast, his physicality is markedly lower. With time, I think he would come good - you can make someone stronger, faster and have a better understanding of the level. It will be much harder to improve the mental attributes that are generally far more important.

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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by Vision » 10 Jan 2019 10:02

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Hound Think there is a fair amount of complacency in the two signings and a lack of acceptance as to where we are in the table. I like the fact that Gomes has a clear idea of how he wants to play - but making up a 5 point gap and playing your way out of the bottom 3 - it’s certainly brave, but I don’t think will be successful

I think a GK who can pass the ball will be on the way. Walker will go along with Kelly (Zwolle?)/Bacuna. Interesting after that.


Little point in the club appointing Gomes and then expecting him to go all "Pulis" though surely.

Like it or not, Gomes has a way he wants us to play and we've committed ourselves to it. In that sense if one of the two signings so far fulfils the potential they showed at a younger age (Baker in particular) and we can find that all elusive goalscorer for this system then it will give us our best chance to survive.

Also this is still a squad who from a footballing point of view is far more suited to how Gomes wants to play than say a Pulis or a Parkinson. Our best bet is to utilise what we already have and supplement it. If we want to be more direct then I'd suggest we'd need even more of an overhaul in personnel than we do right now.

I don't think anyone would deny for the last season and a half (probably even earlier) we simply haven't created enough chances for the strikers we have. Adding these two attempts to address that. Of course it's all moot if we don't bring in ( or develop from within) a goalscorer who also fits the style and can benefit from it. But signing these two players doesn't mean that player won't arrive or emerge.

FWIW, as much as I realise this is a minority view, I think McNulty might well have been that player but I guess we'll never know.

I'd also like to see how Barrow would get on down the middle but that's even more of a minority view ;-)


Whilst I get your points re playing style (but not Barrow...) we're not even doing the basics right. I think any decent coach/manager drilling the team could improve that area.

The fear is that Gomes will make the same mistakes that Clement (and to an extent Stam and Clarke) made in not bolstering the defensive side of the midfield (JVdB was just not any good at it) and we'll lose possession and be overrun by teams in the middle.


I honestly think it's a mental thing as much as ability or even signings. Swansea was obviously an aberration but Gomes himself recognised that and highlighted the issues pretty succinctly. Other than that there was no sign against a physical Millwall with only 10 men, an inform QPR and Manchester Utd at Old Trafford that we aren't organised enough not to be overrun in midfield. In fact I'd say the main reason we didn't get better results in those games was more down to lack of killer instinct both in creativity and execution in the final 3rd.

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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by leon » 10 Jan 2019 10:03

Why isn't this thread CONFIMRED?


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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by stealthpapes » 10 Jan 2019 10:03

I'd extend the idea of complacency to the selection of Gomes. Its a very brave (or as I say, complacent) idea that we can pass our way out of trouble. It might work - personally think not - but at least we are going full on with one style rather than PC's scattergun hit and hope


I agree with this. I don't think its complacency per se, as its a really, really brave decision.

we're going to struggle. Let's struggle on our terms.

Incidentally, this is what we should have done in 2012-13.

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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by leon » 10 Jan 2019 10:10

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Little point in the club appointing Gomes and then expecting him to go all "Pulis" though surely.

Like it or not, Gomes has a way he wants us to play and we've committed ourselves to it. In that sense if one of the two signings so far fulfils the potential they showed at a younger age (Baker in particular) and we can find that all elusive goalscorer for this system then it will give us our best chance to survive.

Also this is still a squad who from a footballing point of view is far more suited to how Gomes wants to play than say a Pulis or a Parkinson. Our best bet is to utilise what we already have and supplement it. If we want to be more direct then I'd suggest we'd need even more of an overhaul in personnel than we do right now.

I don't think anyone would deny for the last season and a half (probably even earlier) we simply haven't created enough chances for the strikers we have. Adding these two attempts to address that. Of course it's all moot if we don't bring in ( or develop from within) a goalscorer who also fits the style and can benefit from it. But signing these two players doesn't mean that player won't arrive or emerge.

FWIW, as much as I realise this is a minority view, I think McNulty might well have been that player but I guess we'll never know.

I'd also like to see how Barrow would get on down the middle but that's even more of a minority view ;-)


Whilst I get your points re playing style (but not Barrow...) we're not even doing the basics right. I think any decent coach/manager drilling the team could improve that area.

The fear is that Gomes will make the same mistakes that Clement (and to an extent Stam and Clarke) made in not bolstering the defensive side of the midfield (JVdB was just not any good at it) and we'll lose possession and be overrun by teams in the middle.


I honestly think it's a mental thing as much as ability or even signings. Swansea was obviously an aberration but Gomes himself recognised that and highlighted the issues pretty succinctly. Other than that there was no sign against a physical Millwall with only 10 men, an inform QPR and Manchester Utd at Old Trafford that we aren't organised enough not to be overrun in midfield. In fact I'd say the main reason we didn't get better results in those games was more down to lack of killer instinct both in creativity and execution in the final 3rd.


I'll give you QPR. Millwall are just as shit as us and Man U, although we passed it well and looked confident, they did what they had to do and no more. They didn't play how a championship team would play. You're also missing out the aberration against Swansea.

Whilst I think Rinomhota has helped greatly, we need more steel in there. Not less.

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Re: Confirmed Lewis Baker on Loan

by paultheroyal » 10 Jan 2019 10:12

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Just don’t understand this kind of post. One of many. Has it not occurred to anyone that the current midfield dynamos are just not very good and need a kick up the backside. Replaced with new energy, better schooling etc? Just a thought.

Consensus seems to be that Rinomhota and Swift are our two best performers right now and that when he's fit Ezatolahi has to play. Regardless of how you think Bacuna and Kelly have been playing, we can't fit five midfielders into two or three slots.

Swift and Baker have the same education.


How do you know Ezatolahi is favoured by Gomez?.....its not a given. Nothing seems to be a "given" at the minute at this club.


and not ignoring the fact that everyone seems to be bigging up our best performers and midfield dynamos when we are 5 points from safety. Really do have to scratch your head at times.

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Re: Confirmed Lewis Baker on Loan

by paultheroyal » 10 Jan 2019 10:13

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Perhaps a true reflection of how poor our options were previously. Better than, though not the ultimate solution.


The options have been poor. Rinomhota has improved things but Swift remains an enigma. Will we see Ezatolahi play for us again? For now this looks our strongest midfield if all three are available.

Nothing sums up our midfield more than the erratic performances of Leandro Bacuna. His passing is so inconsistent. Every game he mixes good passes with dreadful ones. Kelly has shown a better attitude in recent appearances. He has at least worked harder but lacks creativity.

It says an awful lot that our mediocre midfield has been the least of our problems this season.


I would say midfield is absolutely our biggest problem this season. It cant stop the opposition and can’t create.

Yeah defence has been shit but if you’re a full back trying to defend against two players when the guy in front of you is doing fcuk all or a centre back constantly having midfielders running at you through the central midfield unmolested you’re going to struggle.

No one bar Rinomhota can do their job properly.

Edit: so maybe we’re replacing Swift and Kelly with these lads.


Some sense and realism at last.


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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by Vision » 10 Jan 2019 10:24

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Whilst I get your points re playing style (but not Barrow...) we're not even doing the basics right. I think any decent coach/manager drilling the team could improve that area.

The fear is that Gomes will make the same mistakes that Clement (and to an extent Stam and Clarke) made in not bolstering the defensive side of the midfield (JVdB was just not any good at it) and we'll lose possession and be overrun by teams in the middle.


I honestly think it's a mental thing as much as ability or even signings. Swansea was obviously an aberration but Gomes himself recognised that and highlighted the issues pretty succinctly. Other than that there was no sign against a physical Millwall with only 10 men, an inform QPR and Manchester Utd at Old Trafford that we aren't organised enough not to be overrun in midfield. In fact I'd say the main reason we didn't get better results in those games was more down to lack of killer instinct both in creativity and execution in the final 3rd.


I'll give you QPR. Millwall are just as shit as us and Man U, although we passed it well and looked confident, they did what they had to do and no more. They didn't play how a championship team would play. You're also missing out the aberration against Swansea.

Whilst I think Rinomhota has helped greatly, we need more steel in there. Not less.


No I definitely included the "aberration against Swansea". I used the exact same phrase ;-) Lets be honest if you make the mistakes we did that day it doesn't matter what style/formation you play or how many defensive midfielders you have, it's going to end in tears.

If we can't get that steel in January (and those type of players are becoming rarer and rarer in the modern game) then we need to concentrate on compensating in other ways. Besides we finished 3rd with a few aberrations a couple of seasons ago. It's going to happen from time to time when you play this way.

Doesn't mean it's not still the best way to go on the whole though.

EDIT: Aren't Millwall exactly the type of physical Championship side you're referring to though. We definitely weren't overrun by them even with a man light for most of it. It's early days of course and we've not won a bloody game yet so it's not like I can say with certainty Gomes has made great strides. I just think he's going about it the right way. It still might not be enough to save us but I'm genuinely looking forward to seeing it pan out.
Last edited by Vision on 10 Jan 2019 10:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by 72 bus » 10 Jan 2019 10:27

https://www.readingfc.co.uk/news/2019/j ... r-on-loan/

On the international scene, Baker has been awarded England caps at Under-17, Under-19 and Under-20 level before scoring eight times in just 17 appearances alongside midfield compatriot John Swift as an England Under-21.

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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by leon » 10 Jan 2019 10:28

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I honestly think it's a mental thing as much as ability or even signings. Swansea was obviously an aberration but Gomes himself recognised that and highlighted the issues pretty succinctly. Other than that there was no sign against a physical Millwall with only 10 men, an inform QPR and Manchester Utd at Old Trafford that we aren't organised enough not to be overrun in midfield. In fact I'd say the main reason we didn't get better results in those games was more down to lack of killer instinct both in creativity and execution in the final 3rd.


I'll give you QPR. Millwall are just as shit as us and Man U, although we passed it well and looked confident, they did what they had to do and no more. They didn't play how a championship team would play. You're also missing out the aberration against Swansea.

Whilst I think Rinomhota has helped greatly, we need more steel in there. Not less.


No I definitely included the "aberration against Swansea". I used the exact same phrase ;-) Lets be honest if you make the mistakes we did that day it doesn't matter what style/formation you play or how many defensive midfielders you have, it's going to end in tears.

If we can't get that steel in January (and those type of players are becoming rarer and rarer in the modern game) then we need to concentrate on compensating in other ways. Besides we finished 3rd with a few aberrations a couple of seasons ago. It's going to happen from time to time when you play this way.

Doesn't mean it's not still the best way to go on the whole though.


Not sure midfielders who are strong defensively are rarer and rarer? We're not talking hackers here - I think they're more prevalent than you think.

Mobility is key, as is strength and positional awareness and discipline.

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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by Vision » 10 Jan 2019 10:36

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I'll give you QPR. Millwall are just as shit as us and Man U, although we passed it well and looked confident, they did what they had to do and no more. They didn't play how a championship team would play. You're also missing out the aberration against Swansea.

Whilst I think Rinomhota has helped greatly, we need more steel in there. Not less.


No I definitely included the "aberration against Swansea". I used the exact same phrase ;-) Lets be honest if you make the mistakes we did that day it doesn't matter what style/formation you play or how many defensive midfielders you have, it's going to end in tears.

If we can't get that steel in January (and those type of players are becoming rarer and rarer in the modern game) then we need to concentrate on compensating in other ways. Besides we finished 3rd with a few aberrations a couple of seasons ago. It's going to happen from time to time when you play this way.

Doesn't mean it's not still the best way to go on the whole though.


Not sure midfielders who are strong defensively are rarer and rarer? We're not talking hackers here - I think they're more prevalent than you think.

Mobility is key, as is strength and positional awareness and discipline.


I obviously misinterpreted what you meant by steel , probably due to an earlier reference to JVDB.

I totally agree with the above which is my point. The Makele type of individual player doesn't really exist any more. There is nothing to suggest that a midfield three from a combination of Rinomhota/Bacuna/Kelly/Baker/Ojaria can't provide what you ascribe. I don't think adding the latter two can't add more protection to the back four than the likes of Meyler/Edwards/JVDB for example with the discipline and organisation you're talking about. They'll also be a damn sight more useful in an attacking sense too.
Last edited by Vision on 10 Jan 2019 11:47, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by Hound » 10 Jan 2019 10:37

One of the most frustrating things about the Swansea game is they only got into our area about 5 times in the match. Obvs they had less motivation to after they went 2 up, but defensively the midfield didn't actually do too bad a job. The goals were from Ilori rubbish marking, Barrow crap clearance and then rubbish defending, crap free kick (Ilori) and poor marking and a dodgy pen giving away by our fb

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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by Duffy » 10 Jan 2019 10:38

At least we have a bit more youth and energy in our squad after this transfer window.

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Re: RUMOUR - Lewis baker

by Theroyalbox » 10 Jan 2019 10:50

Swift and Baker together behind a striker could be a fantastic combination

Meite
Baker Swift
Bacuna Rinomata Kelly

Gomes has been playing the fullbacks really wide and going forward a lot imagine this is the style he will play for us and also imagine that's why his teams concede a lot of goals can see the midfield being very narrow

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