Clement

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Clement in or out

Poll ended at 02 Oct 2018 15:29
Out
35
25%
In
68
49%
Out but in a funny accent
3
2%
Oxf*rd off Maff
17
12%
Ian Royal
16
12%
 
Total votes: 139
Coppells Lost Coat
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Re: Clement

by Coppells Lost Coat » 12 Sep 2018 09:53

bobby1413 How have we ended up with uninspiring squad that no one fears?

How, after several years and several managers are we now left wii 15-20 players who are all fairly uninspiring when put together?

I do think that uninspiring and poor performing players can turn it around. I'm just worried that often this is linked directly the manager really getting them going and filling them with belief.

It's funny. I can imagine Stam doing that but not Clement. Maybe that explains why we were 2 kicks from PL football at one stage with him in charge


We have had so many sucker punches recently the squad need a run of not losing / not conceding. Until then, confidence will be rock bottom. Only the best managers can turn this shambles around in 6 games. Good managers should be able to by december. I am prepared to see what we have.
The link between players under performing and the manager is a very fine. Its down to the manger to set the team up how he wants the players to play. Its down to the players to implement this. If they do not apply themselves fully then the whole system fails and it falls on the manager.
Would love Clement to have the balls and drop the non performers however there is no replacements.

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Re: Clement

by Hound » 12 Sep 2018 12:23

TBF he has dropped Meyler, McShane and Swift already for playing poorly. Be nice for Aluko to get the same treatment. I don't think he lacks the guts to make the big calls

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Re: Clement

by Snowball » 12 Sep 2018 12:47

Brain Traysers
Hound We really have been utter dogsh1t for quite a while haven’t we?

Didn’t actually realise we were as good as that suggests in the first 20 games last year though


After 23 games we were solidly mid table (14th) on 27 points - 1pt better off than xG suggested we should have been. We capped off that half season with the home loss to Burton. I'm not sure that is 'good' for a team who finished 3rd in the season before (albeit false third), but oh to be average/mid table right now!

In the second half we picked up a further 19 points, 6 (!) more than xG suggests we should have. We were very very lucky not to go down.



Would that be the two "surprise" 1-0 wins we had early in Clement's management?

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Re: Clement

by Snowball » 12 Sep 2018 13:04

Nor sure how best to phrase this, but since 2005/06 we had, for a few years,
many "unfancied" players who have stepped up, performed well above
expectations. We have had PASSION, commitment, aggression and
this seemed to carry us beyond mere playing ability.

I'm thinking of "ordinary" players like Noel Hunt - God what I'd give for him
at his peak now. Karacan, Murts, Gunnarson, Stephen Hunt, Leigertwood

Long v Church (when Church, allegedly had all the ability)

We seem to have lost players prepared to go in when it hurts - I lost count
at the number of times Noel Hunt had head injuries.

I'd include the disliked Matt Mills.

Also Andy Griffin, Tabb, McAnuff, Harte, Kasper Gorks... Alf?

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Re: Clement

by pwb » 12 Sep 2018 13:41

Snowball Nor sure how best to phrase this, but since 2005/06 we had, for a few years,
many "unfancied" players who have stepped up, performed well above
expectations. We have had PASSION, commitment, aggression and
this seemed to carry us beyond mere playing ability.

I'm thinking of "ordinary" players like Noel Hunt - God what I'd give for him
at his peak now. Karacan, Murts, Gunnarson, Stephen Hunt, Leigertwood

Long v Church (when Church, allegedly had all the ability)

We seem to have lost players prepared to go in when it hurts - I lost count
at the number of times Noel Hunt had head injuries.

I'd include the disliked Matt Mills.

Also Andy Griffin, Tabb, McAnuff, Harte, Kasper Gorks... Alf?


Don't forget Kitson, Harper,Sidwell....


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Re: Clement

by Ascotexgunner » 12 Sep 2018 14:49

Snowball Nor sure how best to phrase this, but since 2005/06 we had, for a few years,
many "unfancied" players who have stepped up, performed well above
expectations. We have had PASSION, commitment, aggression and
this seemed to carry us beyond mere playing ability.

I'm thinking of "ordinary" players like Noel Hunt - God what I'd give for him
at his peak now. Karacan, Murts, Gunnarson, Stephen Hunt, Leigertwood

Long v Church (when Church, allegedly had all the ability)

We seem to have lost players prepared to go in when it hurts - I lost count
at the number of times Noel Hunt had head injuries.

I'd include the disliked Matt Mills.

Also Andy Griffin, Tabb, McAnuff, Harte, Kasper Gorks... Alf?


I'm probably the only person that liked Matt Mills. I though he had every attribute needed to be a good captain and CB. Was sad when he left, and the way he left.

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Re: Clement

by Maneki Neko » 12 Sep 2018 15:00

id still take a 3 man defence of Pearce, Morrison and Mills over our current lot

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Re: Clement

by Snowball » 12 Sep 2018 16:45

pwb
Snowball Nor sure how best to phrase this, but since 2005/06 we had, for a few years,
many "unfancied" players who have stepped up, performed well above
expectations. We have had PASSION, commitment, aggression and
this seemed to carry us beyond mere playing ability.

I'm thinking of "ordinary" players like Noel Hunt - God what I'd give for him
at his peak now. Karacan, Murts, Gunnarson, Stephen Hunt, Leigertwood

Long v Church (when Church, allegedly had all the ability)

We seem to have lost players prepared to go in when it hurts - I lost count
at the number of times Noel Hunt had head injuries.

I'd include the disliked Matt Mills.

Also Andy Griffin, Tabb, McAnuff, Harte, Kasper Gorks... Alf?


Don't forget Kitson, Harper,Sidwell....



And Doyle? I knew I wouldn't remember everyone of the ilk to which I refer
but looking back at older team-sheets it isn't SKILLS I remember but courage,
tenacity, never-say-die

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Re: Clement

by John Smith » 12 Sep 2018 17:16

Maneki Neko id still take a 3 man defence of Pearce, Morrison and Mills over our current lot

Oh dear, there's always one


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Re: Clement

by Snowflake Royal » 12 Sep 2018 20:25

Hound TBF he has dropped Meyler, McShane and Swift already for playing poorly. Be nice for Aluko to get the same treatment. I don't think he lacks the guts to make the big calls

In the case of Meyler, for one league game, before bringing him straight back in. Admittedly in an area where we have literally not a single player in any sort of form.

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Re: Clement

by Brain Traysers » 12 Sep 2018 20:39

Snowball Would that be the two "surprise" 1-0 wins we had early in Clement's management?


Essentially yes (or certainly 5 of the 6 points)
1x +3 points for winning when we deserved to lose (v QPR)
1x +2 points for winning when we deserved to draw (v Preston)
5x +1 point for drawing when we deserved to lose (v Barnsley, Hull, Forest, Bolton and Cardiff)

2x -1 point for losing when we deserved to draw (v Bristol C and Ipswich)
1x -2 points for drawing when we deserved to win. (v Leeds)

In semi-helpful chart form, that looks like this

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Re: Clement

by Hound » 12 Sep 2018 20:48

Snowflake Royal
Hound TBF he has dropped Meyler, McShane and Swift already for playing poorly. Be nice for Aluko to get the same treatment. I don't think he lacks the guts to make the big calls

In the case of Meyler, for one league game, before bringing him straight back in. Admittedly in an area where we have literally not a single player in any sort of form.


Well exactly

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Re: Clement

by Snowflake Royal » 12 Sep 2018 21:55

Hound
Snowflake Royal
Hound TBF he has dropped Meyler, McShane and Swift already for playing poorly. Be nice for Aluko to get the same treatment. I don't think he lacks the guts to make the big calls

In the case of Meyler, for one league game, before bringing him straight back in. Admittedly in an area where we have literally not a single player in any sort of form.


Well exactly

Although I'd argue we don't have any midfielders playing worse than Meyler at the moment.


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Re: Clement

by John Smith » 13 Sep 2018 03:00

Brain Traysers
Hound We really have been utter dogsh1t for quite a while haven’t we?

Didn’t actually realise we were as good as that suggests in the first 20 games last year though


After 23 games we were solidly mid table (14th) on 27 points - 1pt better off than xG suggested we should have been. We capped off that half season with the home loss to Burton. I'm not sure that is 'good' for a team who finished 3rd in the season before (albeit false third), but oh to be average/mid table right now!

In the second half we picked up a further 19 points, 6 (!) more than xG suggests we should have. We were very very lucky not to go down.

Yeah yeah you can look at stats until the cows come home. There's so many variables in football that these ultimately mean nothing. We are only 6 games into a 46 game season. We will pick up points along the way where we "shouldn't". So what if we play those teams in the final run in too? We have to play them sometime - Stoke have looked poor so far and the pressure could well get to a Leeds or Boro should the be in with a chance of promotion

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Re: Clement

by Brain Traysers » 13 Sep 2018 22:58

John Smith Yeah yeah you can look at stats until the cows come home. There's so many variables in football that these ultimately mean nothing. We are only 6 games into a 46 game season. We will pick up points along the way where we "shouldn't". So what if we play those teams in the final run in too? We have to play them sometime - Stoke have looked poor so far and the pressure could well get to a Leeds or Boro should the be in with a chance of promotion


Certainly a common held view, but one I disagree with. As unique as football is, I don't think there are any mainstream sports where performance couldn't be improved by effectively utilising the right statistics. Most US sports are years ahead of us for this, with numerous success stories documented across sports. Closer to home, the Brentford xG approach has also been well documented, and allowed them to consistently punch above their weight (relative budget/wages). In addition their stats based player recruitment has given them a stellar record in the transfer markets, and this season they look a good bet to finally crack the play-offs. This has been led by their chairman, Matthew Benham, who made his fortune by using stats to identifying and exploit edges in betting markets. He also owns FC Midtjylland in Denmark and led them to their first ever Danish title in 2014-15, where they scored 25 goals from set pieces alone (2nd best was 11, league average was 9).

England also suddenly being good as set pieces wasn't a coincidence - that's a set piece coach who almost certainly has designed routines ultimately based on stats. Indeed, Liverpool have hired a coach who is the world expert in throw ins - that is another 'edge' gained through analytics. All these things add up over the course of a season.

More examples of forward thinking clubs include Man City who arrange an annual 'hackathon' (inviting analysts in to 'play' with their player data, presumably to hire the best), and PSG who have just been publicly announced they have partnered with a leading sports analytics company (which possibly explains the seemingly bizarre signing of Chupo-Moting). These are two huge clubs who have made their involvement public, I can almost guarantee others are quietly in on the act so as not to reveal anything and lose whatever edge they are targeting. (Check out Bournemouth joint topping the PL charts for goals from corners last season for a likely candidate - 0.24 per game)

Put another way - we demonstrated that we could't afford to buy a 15-20 goal striker, but if we hired a (data driven) set-piece expert to consult it wouldn't be unreasonable to get those 15 extra goals for a fraction of the cost (and if we hired an in house coach to learn from the expert it would cost even less going forward...) Those 15 goals would be worth a lot of very valuable points.

Unfortunately I think it's pretty likely our club is one of the many that still share your mindset - one of guys who worked for Benham at Brentford/FC Midtjylland started an analytics company who offer set piece services publicly said zero clubs had been in touch with them after the World Cup, despite England clearly showcasing the benefits on the largest stage.

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Re: Clement

by Denver Royal » 14 Sep 2018 00:41

Excellent post.

Without knowing, I had assumed many clubs were utilizing stats these days, but maybe not? Your example of Brentford (a club without an academy) is telling. Do you know whether we employ similar? (Or was that another of the cuts made by Gourlay with his machete?) At a guess, having been a coach at big clubs, Clement strikes me as a guy who might utilize stats?
I wouldn’t say stats are everything, but could/should be a relatively low-cost part of your arsenal, a ‘nothing to lose, additional string to your bow’, if you will.
For us, at this juncture, we should be considering any advantage or benefit we can.
And yes, I don’t know the stats, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we were deficient at set pieces compared to our rivals. At both ends of the pitch.

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Re: Clement

by Cape Town Royal » 14 Sep 2018 02:04

Denver Royal Excellent post.

Without knowing, I had assumed many clubs were utilizing stats these days, but maybe not? Your example of Brentford (a club without an academy) is telling. Do you know whether we employ similar? (Or was that another of the cuts made by Gourlay with his machete?) At a guess, having been a coach at big clubs, Clement strikes me as a guy who might utilize stats?
I wouldn’t say stats are everything, but could/should be a relatively low-cost part of your arsenal, a ‘nothing to lose, additional string to your bow’, if you will.
For us, at this juncture, we should be considering any advantage or benefit we can.
And yes, I don’t know the stats, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we were deficient at set pieces compared to our rivals. At both ends of the pitch.


Good post - If I was clement I would be drilling them hard to create chances from set pieces. It's an easily identifiable part of the game and with our confidence being so low if we could start to get a few goals from corners and free kicks it will start to give the team some belief that we can win matches.

I feel we really needed to have won the Blackburn game, 2 up away from home and largely in control, that was a game where had we seen it out would have given the team a huge lift. The result and the nature of how it happened was a large kick in the teeth...

Boy do we need an ugly win or two....

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Re: Clement

by Hound » 14 Sep 2018 07:14

Good post on the stats and one I generally agree with

Clement did say in his presser yesterday ‘we have all the stats’ - this was relating to distances run, but suggests he is also a keen user

Set pieces would help if neither Kelly or Aluko never took them again. Bacuna has a couple of assists from them I believe. Definitely keep him on them

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Re: Clement

by Sutekh » 14 Sep 2018 09:28

Hound Set pieces would help if neither Kelly or Aluko never took them again. Bacuna has a couple of assists from them I believe. Definitely keep him on them


If the management need stats to tell them that then they shouldn't be managing anything.

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Re: Clement

by Hound » 14 Sep 2018 09:54

Sutekh
Hound Set pieces would help if neither Kelly or Aluko never took them again. Bacuna has a couple of assists from them I believe. Definitely keep him on them


If the management need stats to tell them that then they shouldn't be managing anything.


it was kind of a side point not really related to the stats - but yeah anyone watching could see how poor our set pieces are under Kelly/Aluko

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