51 Academy players

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Re: 51 Academy players

by Hound » 28 Mar 2019 10:14

Be interesting to hear how Watson has got on. Seems to be a bit in and out but at least seems to have stayed fit. Think there was an element of thinking Watson had more potential hence not making more of an effort to keep Stacey

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Re: 51 Academy players

by Vision » 28 Mar 2019 15:22

Hound Be interesting to hear how Watson has got on. Seems to be a bit in and out but at least seems to have stayed fit. Think there was an element of thinking Watson had more potential hence not making more of an effort to keep Stacey


Glad someone actually mentioned Watson. He was obviously our back up Right Back and a very promising one at the time. Sadly injury has de-railed him as much as a lack of ability.

Whether people like it or not , all academy players started from scratch the moment Stam came in. It was Stacey and Fosu's opportunity to really force themselves into first team contention as Liam Kelly (who lest we forget was a pretty left field selection that few saw coming given he'd spent the previous season at Bath City) did.

Rob Dickie also leap-frogged other centre half contenders that pre-season but he decided he wanted to play first team football rather than be a 4th choice centre half/ 3rd choice right back.

Stacey and Fosu didn't convince Stam enough for him to give them the assurances they were seeking so went elsewhere. The subsequent progress they've made has generally been in positions that they weren't playing when they were here.

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Re: 51 Academy players

by Snowflake Royal » 28 Mar 2019 17:25

Vision
Hound Be interesting to hear how Watson has got on. Seems to be a bit in and out but at least seems to have stayed fit. Think there was an element of thinking Watson had more potential hence not making more of an effort to keep Stacey


Glad someone actually mentioned Watson. He was obviously our back up Right Back and a very promising one at the time. Sadly injury has de-railed him as much as a lack of ability.

Whether people like it or not , all academy players started from scratch the moment Stam came in. It was Stacey and Fosu's opportunity to really force themselves into first team contention as Liam Kelly (who lest we forget was a pretty left field selection that few saw coming given he'd spent the previous season at Bath City) did.

Rob Dickie also leap-frogged other centre half contenders that pre-season but he decided he wanted to play first team football rather than be a 4th choice centre half/ 3rd choice right back.

Stacey and Fosu didn't convince Stam enough for him to give them the assurances they were seeking so went elsewhere. The subsequent progress they've made has generally been in positions that they weren't playing when they were here.

Fair point Vision, I did forget Watson... he was another I had high hopes for. But after his injury he seemed to go backwards. His loan seems to have helped there though.

Also very disappointed not to see more of Dickie and Hyam.

I thought Watson, Owusu, Dickie, Hyam, Stacey, Kuhl and Tanner all had very good chances of making it here. So of course they didn't and Kelly, Rino, Richards and Tish did.

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Re: 51 Academy players

by SCIAG » 28 Mar 2019 20:34

Vision Rob Dickie also leap-frogged other centre half contenders that pre-season but he decided he wanted to play first team football rather than be a 4th choice centre half/ 3rd choice right back.

Not quite what happened. Dickie was actually one of the players who lost out under Stam, who had this weird habit of rapidly cycling between young centre backs. At various times, Cooper, Jules, Blackett, Ilori, Oxford, Axel, McIntyre, and Holmes, were all his favourite. When Dickie came back from his loan he couldn't get in the U23s because Ilori was in there recovering from injury and Oxford was in there pretending he was still at West Ham. The next January he wanted to sell Blackett and play McIntyre instead, but McIntyre got injured.

One of the worst aspects of our rapid cycling between managers is the impact it has on our squad building, which inevitably impacts upon our youngsters. Can't help but feel we'd have been better off sticking with Adkins or even McDermott 2.0 rather than the aimless oscillation we've seen for the past five years.

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Re: 51 Academy players

by Vision » 29 Mar 2019 07:51

SCIAG
Vision Rob Dickie also leap-frogged other centre half contenders that pre-season but he decided he wanted to play first team football rather than be a 4th choice centre half/ 3rd choice right back.

Not quite what happened. Dickie was actually one of the players who lost out under Stam, who had this weird habit of rapidly cycling between young centre backs. At various times, Cooper, Jules, Blackett, Ilori, Oxford, Axel, McIntyre, and Holmes, were all his favourite. When Dickie came back from his loan he couldn't get in the U23s because Ilori was in there recovering from injury and Oxford was in there pretending he was still at West Ham. The next January he wanted to sell Blackett and play McIntyre instead, but McIntyre got injured.


Fair enough SCIAG, you'll know the Academy ins and outs better than I but my point (somewhat lost in your judicious quoting) was in relation to that first Stam summer and Fosu/Stacey not doing enough to impress him in training in the way that the likes of Dickie, Kelly and Watson did. Clearly attention to training was Stam's MO which was evident in some of his more baffling team selections over his time here. With that in mind it's no surprise that others came to the fore whilst Dickie was out on loan. Obviously a major flaw if players out on loan are somewhat forgotten about. Of course by the time Illori and Oxford came along the whole club strategy had changed.

SCIAG One of the worst aspects of our rapid cycling between managers is the impact it has on our squad building, which inevitably impacts upon our youngsters. Can't help but feel we'd have been better off sticking with Adkins or even McDermott 2.0 rather than the aimless oscillation we've seen for the past five years.


Totally agree. Adkins wasn't perfect but he did a decent job here with the hand he was dealt and certainly the youngsters would have had a viable pathway. Ironically he suffered ultimately because he wasn't McDermott whilst McDermott himself suffered because he was.


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Re: 51 Academy players

by Sutekh » 29 Mar 2019 07:59

SCIAG
Vision Rob Dickie also leap-frogged other centre half contenders that pre-season but he decided he wanted to play first team football rather than be a 4th choice centre half/ 3rd choice right back.

Not quite what happened. Dickie was actually one of the players who lost out under Stam, who had this weird habit of rapidly cycling between young centre backs. At various times, Cooper, Jules, Blackett, Ilori, Oxford, Axel, McIntyre, and Holmes, were all his favourite. When Dickie came back from his loan he couldn't get in the U23s because Ilori was in there recovering from injury and Oxford was in there pretending he was still at West Ham. The next January he wanted to sell Blackett and play McIntyre instead, but McIntyre got injured.

One of the worst aspects of our rapid cycling between managers is the impact it has on our squad building, which inevitably impacts upon our youngsters. Can't help but feel we'd have been better off sticking with Adkins or even McDermott 2.0 rather than the aimless oscillation we've seen for the past five years.


Adkins had to go I think - it just wasn’t working for him.

Disappointed the club didn’t spend some time then looking for the real successor as there were a good few managers available with better track records and experience than SC (eg. Chris Hughton).

Additionally the removal of Brian for the second time was utterly ludicrous.

To their credit though the board gave JS more than enough time to turn it around.

But it is what it is and if JG can keep the club up he may well be the best thing since Sir Steve. Fear for him and his preferred style though if the club sinks into the abyss of the 3rd division.

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Re: 51 Academy players

by Snowflake Royal » 30 Mar 2019 16:09

Vision
SCIAG
Vision Rob Dickie also leap-frogged other centre half contenders that pre-season but he decided he wanted to play first team football rather than be a 4th choice centre half/ 3rd choice right back.

Not quite what happened. Dickie was actually one of the players who lost out under Stam, who had this weird habit of rapidly cycling between young centre backs. At various times, Cooper, Jules, Blackett, Ilori, Oxford, Axel, McIntyre, and Holmes, were all his favourite. When Dickie came back from his loan he couldn't get in the U23s because Ilori was in there recovering from injury and Oxford was in there pretending he was still at West Ham. The next January he wanted to sell Blackett and play McIntyre instead, but McIntyre got injured.


Fair enough SCIAG, you'll know the Academy ins and outs better than I but my point (somewhat lost in your judicious quoting) was in relation to that first Stam summer and Fosu/Stacey not doing enough to impress him in training in the way that the likes of Dickie, Kelly and Watson did. Clearly attention to training was Stam's MO which was evident in some of his more baffling team selections over his time here. With that in mind it's no surprise that others came to the fore whilst Dickie was out on loan. Obviously a major flaw if players out on loan are somewhat forgotten about. Of course by the time Illori and Oxford came along the whole club strategy had changed.

SCIAG One of the worst aspects of our rapid cycling between managers is the impact it has on our squad building, which inevitably impacts upon our youngsters. Can't help but feel we'd have been better off sticking with Adkins or even McDermott 2.0 rather than the aimless oscillation we've seen for the past five years.


Totally agree. Adkins wasn't perfect but he did a decent job here with the hand he was dealt and certainly the youngsters would have had a viable pathway. Ironically he suffered ultimately because he wasn't McDermott whilst McDermott himself suffered because he was.

Yeah. Adkins got more shafted than pretty much any manager we've had in ages by the ownership shenanigans and lack of money. And was always viewed with hostility by the McDermott fanboys from the start. We've slowly gone downhill since he was sacked. McDermott being brought in for a few months and then unceremoniously dumped again was an absolute disgrace. Sticking with either would have given better stability IMO. We might not have had a finish as high as 3rd with either, but I doubt we'd have consistently been below 16th either.

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Re: 51 Academy players

by sandman » 30 Mar 2019 17:27

Sorry but he wasn't. Failed to make the play offs despite having one of the best squads in the Championship.

He was allowed to bring in Billy Sharp on loan despite the club not being on a sound footing financially.

Just wasn't good enough.

Those who stuck up for McDermott despite 98% of the fan base hating Brian and shamefully calling him every name under the sun had no effect whatsoever on Adkins failure to succeed in his job.
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Re: 51 Academy players

by SCIAG » 06 Apr 2019 09:27

Vision
SCIAG
Vision Rob Dickie also leap-frogged other centre half contenders that pre-season but he decided he wanted to play first team football rather than be a 4th choice centre half/ 3rd choice right back.

Not quite what happened. Dickie was actually one of the players who lost out under Stam, who had this weird habit of rapidly cycling between young centre backs. At various times, Cooper, Jules, Blackett, Ilori, Oxford, Axel, McIntyre, and Holmes, were all his favourite. When Dickie came back from his loan he couldn't get in the U23s because Ilori was in there recovering from injury and Oxford was in there pretending he was still at West Ham. The next January he wanted to sell Blackett and play McIntyre instead, but McIntyre got injured.


Fair enough SCIAG, you'll know the Academy ins and outs better than I but my point (somewhat lost in your judicious quoting) was in relation to that first Stam summer and Fosu/Stacey not doing enough to impress him in training in the way that the likes of Dickie, Kelly and Watson did. Clearly attention to training was Stam's MO which was evident in some of his more baffling team selections over his time here. With that in mind it's no surprise that others came to the fore whilst Dickie was out on loan. Obviously a major flaw if players out on loan are somewhat forgotten about. Of course by the time Illori and Oxford came along the whole club strategy had changed.

Didn't mean to quote judiciously - I cut everything else because I agreed. I think my point, in turn, was that Dickie didn't impress as much as Cooper and Jules, and that Stam's initial promotion of Jules in particular shows that his initial evaluations were flawed. Pre-season, Jules was ahead of Dickie. We announced our squad numbers in July, and Jules was given #22 while Dickie was not given one at all. Dickie didn't go out on loan until the end of August.

Dickie and Hyam are now established League One defenders. Jules is bouncing around the benches of the bottom half of League Two.


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Re: 51 Academy players

by Snowflake Royal » 06 Apr 2019 10:45

If it wasn't for the fact in his playing days Stam was a world class defender, I'd wonder if he knew anything about defending at all.

He used his centrebacks as play makers and set up to keep them as far from each other as possible in possession, played in such a way as to pile endless pressure on them, and rejected some of our more promising defenders (now playing in the Championship and League One) in favour of playing Berg out of position etc.

And of course we conceded lots of goals.

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Re: 51 Academy players

by maffff » 08 Apr 2019 11:56

SCIAG Dickie and Hyam are now established League One defenders. Jules is bouncing around the benches of the bottom half of League Two.


I saw Jules at Crawley v Macclesfield recently. He was subbed off mid-way through the first half due to injury, that strengthened Macclesfield considerably - he was trash up to that stage.

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Re: 51 Academy players

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 10 Apr 2019 17:15

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Jackson Corner The club love to bang on about how great our academy is with 51 players now played for the first team. In reality how many have been any good? For every Gylfi, Pearce, Obita ect.. There have been loads who have played a few games and disappeared to non league football. The reality is 4 of the last 5 seasons we have been relegation fodder.
How many of the promoted teams in recent seasons have academy players Brighton, Burnley, Watford , Wolves, Huddersfield all have none.

Brentford scraped there academy several seasons ago to concentrate on player recruitment from abroad and lower leagues. They play great football and pick up players like Jota Hogan Watkins Malpey and sell them on for big profits.
They get Neal Malpay for 1.5 million the player with most goals and assists in the championship while we have Danny Loader. Don’t be fooled our academy has way more failures than success stories.


And for every Malpay there will be a dozen of players who come and go at Brentford who you will never of heard of. The new way Brentford are doing things is interesting, i.e. no youth but just a B team but it is too early to suggest it will be more successful over the long term. It has produced 9 players in 3 years - they've sold one Meaphem (but he was already in the youth academy before it was scrapped) for big money.

Any youth investment is a numbers game, we've had 51 make a debut in just under 20 years which isn't a bad average and the plan is to get a mix of players who can make an impact in the first team and also bring in funds if they aren't quite good enough or the right fit at the time they are ready.

I would say our successes are as follows (using this list https://www.readingfc.co.uk/teams/acade ... graduates/):

SImon Church
Jake Cooper
Simon Cox
Michael Hector
Darius Henderson
Jem Karacan
Liam Kelly
Shane Long
Alex McCarthy
Jordan Obita
Alex Pearce
Andy Rinohmota
Hal Robson-Kanu
Gylfi Sigurdsson
Aaron Tshibola
Nathan Tyson

So 16 of the 51 listed graduates would have to be classed as a success. WIth the following perhaps too early in their development and at the club yet to be judged as yet:

Tennai Watson
Sam Smith
Omar Richards (could argubly already be on the other list)
Gabriel Osho
Michael Olise
Andrjia Novakovich (again could well be on the above list)
Tom McIntyre
Danny Loader
Josh Barrett
Tom Holmes
Ryan East

So up to 27 qualified successes now - not bad - sure some will disagree with the above and have additions/deletions but over a 20 year spell that is a damn good return.


Good post. I'm probably mistaken but was Antonio academy?

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Re: 51 Academy players

by SCIAG » 10 Apr 2019 20:38

Technically no - we signed him from non-league when he was too old to play for the academy.

I don't think we should really count people like Long and Rinomhota either but the club do.


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Re: 51 Academy players

by Snowflake Royal » 10 Apr 2019 20:43

SCIAG Technically no - we signed him from non-league when he was too old to play for the academy.

I don't think we should really count people like Long and Rinomhota either but the club do.

I wouldn't count Long because he was in the first team squad the same season he was signed, but Rino spent a few years in the Academy didn't he? Even if he didn't come through from 8 like Obita.

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Re: 51 Academy players

by Hound » 10 Apr 2019 21:54

Joined at 16 I think. Think it’s fair to count him

And after tonight I’m sure they will be :D

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Re: 51 Academy players

by SCIAG » 10 Apr 2019 22:02

Hound Joined at 16 I think. Think it’s fair to count him

And after tonight I’m sure they will be :D

Signed in April, only a few weeks before his 17th birthday. We signed Long at the start of June at the equivalent age.

Obviously it's not cut and dried, but for me personally I think there's something different about bringing someone through the lower levels of the academy or even giving them a scholarship at 16 than bringing them in when they've already played adult football.

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Re: 51 Academy players

by Hound » 10 Apr 2019 22:08

Yeah can see the argument. Richards joined at a similar age I think?

Obvs it’s slightly nicer if they’ve come through from 8 years old etc, but there is still a huge amount of development between 16 and 20

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Re: 51 Academy players

by Notts Royal » 10 Apr 2019 22:29

Brian v1, Adkins, & Brian v2 were all shafted.

Completely agree with the comment that if we had kept Brian we might not have come 3rd that 1 season but we wouldn’t have gone through quite the same turmoil.

Adkins seemed a logical appointment at the time though it was harsh to sack Brian - should never have happened. Really split the fanbase for several seasons until now - Gomes seems to be working some magic.
Adkins was restricted financially - he did a decent enough job that 1st season. Football was a bit dull at times (though great compared to Stam in hindsight) - we actually picked up that Jan-Mar when we reverted to a more direct style...not sure what happened after that though. His 2nd season he brought in Murray who was great - we were hovering around 14th which wasn’t too bad bearing in mind how many injuries we had up to that point.

Brian v2 was brought in to a difficult situation - a bloated squad full of loan players on seemingly high wages. Was clear he wasn’t happy with the mentality at the club & I believe he would’ve sorted that the following season. What happened afterwards was an absolute disgrace & he should never have been sacked.

It’s good that we’ve again got a manager in who feels it’s a privilege to be here...hopefully Gomes will be given the time to gradually implement long-term plans

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Re: 51 Academy players

by muirinho » 10 Apr 2019 23:21

SCIAG
Hound Joined at 16 I think. Think it’s fair to count him

And after tonight I’m sure they will be :D

Signed in April, only a few weeks before his 17th birthday. We signed Long at the start of June at the equivalent age.

Obviously it's not cut and dried, but for me personally I think there's something different about bringing someone through the lower levels of the academy or even giving them a scholarship at 16 than bringing them in when they've already played adult football.


Personally would count Long more than Rino because he'd barely played soccer before joining - he played mostly hurling and badminton. So vast majority of his development, apart from natural talent and hard work, was in our academy (and first team training too of course)

But sill, quite happy to take credit for Rino too.

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