Next Season's Squad.

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URZZZZ
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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by URZZZZ » 06 May 2019 19:20

NewCorkSeth
Snowflake Royal Don't disagree, but it doesn't really answer the question. :)

If we managed to drastically trim the squad and wages whilst retaining good young talent I'd absolutely take it if there was promise of sustainable reinvestment and rebuilding to bounce back.

I would not. Never. I would never take relegation even if there was a 99% chance of us getting promoted back in the next 3 seasons. How many clubs come back stronger from relegation to league 1?


There seems to be at least one/two teams who get relegated from the champ who bounce straight back up, Barnsley this season, possibly Sunderland. All three teams relegated in 16/17 went straight back up in 17/18 and they all went on to get a higher points tally the second time round in the championship.

mikey0406
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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by mikey0406 » 06 May 2019 19:21

The football league have been introducing ‘soft’ transfer bans for teams tilting towards breaking FFP. Birmingham has been warned to reduce the deficit and ‘actively’ do something about it. They did not do this in January hence the point deduction. Aston Villa are close and a ‘soft’ transfer ban could be applied this summer, limiting them to free signings and loans. We have actively done something about in and again this summer we will be active in reducing this. The value of our academy will be truly tested next season. I believe any serious offer for any contracted player will be considered this summer.

Zip
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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Zip » 06 May 2019 19:21

NewCorkSeth
Snowflake Royal Don't disagree, but it doesn't really answer the question. :)

If we managed to drastically trim the squad and wages whilst retaining good young talent I'd absolutely take it if there was promise of sustainable reinvestment and rebuilding to bounce back.

I would not. Never. I would never take relegation even if there was a 99% chance of us getting promoted back in the next 3 seasons. How many clubs come back stronger from relegation to league 1?


Agreed. Relegation would have continued the downward spiral. Gates would have continued to drop. There is zero guarantee that we would easily bounce back. Even if we did whose to say we wouldn’t struggle in the Championship again. It hasn’t done Rotherham a lot of good.

Zip
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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Zip » 06 May 2019 19:25

URZZZZ
NewCorkSeth
Snowflake Royal Don't disagree, but it doesn't really answer the question. :)

If we managed to drastically trim the squad and wages whilst retaining good young talent I'd absolutely take it if there was promise of sustainable reinvestment and rebuilding to bounce back.

I would not. Never. I would never take relegation even if there was a 99% chance of us getting promoted back in the next 3 seasons. How many clubs come back stronger from relegation to league 1?


There seems to be at least one/two teams who get relegated from the champ who bounce straight back up, Barnsley this season, possibly Sunderland. All three teams relegated in 16/17 went straight back up in 17/18 and they all went on to get a higher points tally the second time round in the championship.


Blackburn finished 15th, Wigan 18th and Rotherham 22nd. I wouldn’t say that’s a ringing endorsement for relegation.

URZZZZ
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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by URZZZZ » 06 May 2019 19:30

Zip
URZZZZ
NewCorkSeth I would not. Never. I would never take relegation even if there was a 99% chance of us getting promoted back in the next 3 seasons. How many clubs come back stronger from relegation to league 1?


There seems to be at least one/two teams who get relegated from the champ who bounce straight back up, Barnsley this season, possibly Sunderland. All three teams relegated in 16/17 went straight back up in 17/18 and they all went on to get a higher points tally the second time round in the championship.


Blackburn finished 15th, Wigan 18th and Rotherham 22nd. I wouldn’t say that’s a ringing endorsement for relegation.


I get your point. I suppose what I’m trying to say is if we’re still sitting in 18th place, 19th place whatever in 5 years time, surely there’s a time where you have to admit rebuilding and relegation may have to be a possibility. Look at Ipswich this season. They’ve consistently finished 14th-18th for a long time now, yet it was inevitable that one season they were going to utterly flop


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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Hound » 06 May 2019 19:34

We need to get through this coming season and stay in the champ. Relegation would set us back massively at a time when likely we could invest again

Happy to loan our way through next year and start afresh then

URZZZZ
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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by URZZZZ » 06 May 2019 19:40

Rewind 12 months ago and people were probably saying similar things though. What happens if we are in the exact same position in 12 months time and finances are still tight? When can you say enough is enough of just “getting through the line”. It’s said a lot but Stam and Gourlay are a bunch of clowns, almost single handedly destroying this club, it’s such a shame because we were never like this before

mikey0406
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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by mikey0406 » 06 May 2019 19:44

They gambled and it didn’t pay off. All eggs in one basket with the hope of financial gain of the prem. the fact is unless you get back in the prem within the parachute period teams are going to find it tougher and tougher. It will eventually prove who are the standout ‘coaches’ in the league, improving and getting the best out of players rather than the buy your way out. Boro, Villa, Swansea, West Brom and Stoke will all be interesting cases going forward. Derby will be in trouble if they don’t go up through the playoffs.

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Ascotexgunner
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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Ascotexgunner » 06 May 2019 19:48

Read so many comments wanting to keep Ezatolahi. The guy has been nothing but a sicknote. Yeah he looks decent but we have one Obita already, we can't afford to keep another. OK if it was a free great, that isn't gonna happen.


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NewCorkSeth
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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by NewCorkSeth » 06 May 2019 19:52

Ascotexgunner Read so many comments wanting to keep Ezatolahi. The guy has been nothing but a sicknote. Yeah he looks decent but we have one Obita already, we can't afford to keep another. OK if it was a free great, that isn't gonna happen.

He is on a free?

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Denver Royal
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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Denver Royal » 06 May 2019 20:31

URZZZZ I don’t really keep too much up to date with the finance side of things but It feels like we snatched at any offer for a player Stam wasn’t going to use and bid ridiculous amounts for any player Stam was interested in. It’s said a lot but Stam and Gourlay are a bunch of clowns, almost single handedly destroying this club

You’re right, it is said a lot. You say you don’t keep up on finances? Aside from Aluko (who the manager didn't want), here's our approx business in those 2 windows (rough est in $ from one site I saw) that financially crippled/destroyed the club. (Again, approx $ figures):

2016-2017

SOLD:

Tshibola 6.75m

BOUGHT:
Swift signed on Free, now worth 10.5m?
Liam Moore 1m now worth 8m?
Meite signed for virtually nothing, now worth?
Blackett 2m
Beerens 1m, Sold for 1mil
Popa 500K, Sold for ?


2017-18

SOLD:

Samuel 500K
Hurtado 500K

BOUGHT:
Bacuna 1.7m, was Sold for 8m pounds?
Barrow 1.5m, now worth 6m?
Mannone 2.5 m, sold for ?
Edwards 1m

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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Hound » 06 May 2019 20:38

Missing Ilori there and sceptical on 8m for Bacuna. Was widely quoted as £3m

To be honest the only really bits of bad business were Aluko (again it’s doubtful that Stam ‘didn’t want him’ (though maybe not first choice) and Mannone. Have to add their wage packets into it as well

The other part of course is the contracts handed out to the likes of Joey, Yann and McShane that have been total wastes of money. Plus the likes is Smith and Watson who are unlikely to make it here and given 3 years
Last edited by Hound on 06 May 2019 20:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Denver Royal
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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Denver Royal » 06 May 2019 20:42

Yep:
Ilori bought 4.9m, Sold for ?

Also:
Bod was listed as undisclosed. Now worth ?

Ok, let's use your figure:
Bacuna bought 1.7m , sold 4m

Figures in $.

Yes, obv wages are a factor. As does how many mins/games they played.
In retrospect, extending Yann by a year was a waste, yes. But he was coming off excellent season, and as you know, he got injured (an excuse that's been raised a lot the last season or two, i.e. you can't account for injuries, etc, with regard to Baldock et al).
If Yann (and Bod) weren't both injured Aug-Dec, prolly a different season. Anyway...
Last edited by Denver Royal on 06 May 2019 21:32, edited 5 times in total.


muirinho
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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by muirinho » 06 May 2019 20:43

URZZZZ Rewind 12 months ago and people were probably saying similar things though. What happens if we are in the exact same position in 12 months time and finances are still tight? When can you say enough is enough of just “getting through the line”. It’s said a lot but Stam and Gourlay are a bunch of clowns, almost single handedly destroying this club, it’s such a shame because we were never like this before


If we have two "tight" years, to get the year with the ridiculous loss off the three-year cycle, *without* getting relegated, then the following year, we'll have the headroom to invest a bit more.

So yes, if we're in the same position next year, with finances still tight - that's absolutely fine. Because the following year, there's be a bit more "fiscal space".

I don't think, in general, the players are overpaid* individually in comparison with similar players on similar teams. And - apart from Aluko, and the loan fee for Matej Vydra (going back a bit) we have not massively overspent in transfer fees either for individual players.
It's just that the squad is too big. And part of that is chopping and changing managers (who were bringing in players they want without being forced to sell first). And of course, every time there's a change of manager, there's a pay off for them also.


* in football terms obviously. Not in comparison to a nurse's pay, etc etc

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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Hound » 06 May 2019 20:45

Just going back - my guess is the packages for Aluko and Mannone, though over 3-4 years would have been around 15 million quid. Scary stuff.

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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by muirinho » 06 May 2019 20:46

Hound Missing Ilori there and sceptical on 8m for Bacuna. Was widely quoted as £3m

To be honest the only really bits of bad business were Aluko (again it’s doubtful that Stam ‘didn’t want him’ (though maybe not first choice) and Mannone. Have to add their wage packets into it as well

The other part of course is the contracts handed out to the likes of Joey, Yann and McShane that have been total wastes of money. Plus the likes is Smith and Watson who are unlikely to make it here and given 3 years


Mannone was poor - but Al-Habsi left us in the lurch when there wasn't a good enough goalkeeper at the club to take over the no.1 spot, and without a lot of tiem to find a replacement.

mikey0406
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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by mikey0406 » 06 May 2019 20:47

It’s the wages that have killed the deals, think Bod is missing off the list too. Take Mannone for example, 2.5 million layout who will be on my guess £20,000/week give or take. That’s 2.5 mill outlay and £1 mill per season on that contract. Popa’s contract I have heard to be rumoured on 25k/week. Aluko will be approx 18-25k. Gmac, who’s pitchtime has been limited will be at least £15k. These players could be replaced by academy prospects not costing anything on initial outlay on a third (at least) of the running cost.

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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by muirinho » 06 May 2019 20:49

Denver Royal Yep:
Bought Mannone 4.9m, Sold for ?

Ok:
Bacuna bought 1.7m , sold 4m

Figures in $.

Obv wages are a factor. As does how many mins they played.


Where does $4.9m for Mannone come from? I thought it was about £2m, which would be less than $3m. (Bad enough, all the same!)

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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Snowball » 06 May 2019 20:53

Snowflake Royal

Would you take a relegation getting there out of curiosity?


I might say yes if I knew we'd come straight back up in the autos with a huge point-count
but I'm not sure I could take a fourth awful season on the trot (including the worst 3rd place ever)

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Denver Royal
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Re: Next Season's Squad.

by Denver Royal » 06 May 2019 20:54

muirinho
Denver Royal Yep:
Bought Mannone 4.9m, Sold for ?

Ok:
Bacuna bought 1.7m , sold 4m

Figures in $.

Obv wages are a factor. As does how many mins they played.


Where does $4.9m for Mannone come from? I thought it was about £2m, which would be less than $3m. (Bad enough, all the same!)

Yeah, not sure how accurate that site is.
I for one have no idea on wages for anyone, really. (Hence, I don't say O'Shea, Baldocks, etc, wages have crippled us).
Anyway, I’ll extricate myself from this now. I chimed in because I thought someone above who doesn’t follow finances might appreciate knowing some (i.e. transfer fees).
Last edited by Denver Royal on 06 May 2019 22:33, edited 2 times in total.

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