CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by Stranded » 23 Jul 2019 08:47

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Hendo Not too fussed with this, comes across well in his interview, it’s only for a year and sounds like he actually wants to be a leader and for someone for the kids can come to for advice.

I still think it's a stupid signing because we need people to play and he's unlikely to manage to start 10 games let alone 40

But if he can be available to play regularly at a decent level, he's a good signing. And he does come across extremely well in his interview.


But if those 10 starts allow us to rest an Olise, Holsgrove, Swift or A.N.Other player to ensure they are not getting over cooked at an early age or risking an injury on a fragile body?

What if they allow us to play a more effective version of the 3-5-2 (or 5-3-2) we played at Norwich/Bristol last season by forming a strong base in front of 3 CBs that allows the full back to bomb on and pick up his long balls from deep?

What if he is also able to impart his experience of playing in the PL and at 2 big clubs?

If he bombs, he bombs - in 12 months he's gone and we never speak of him again, he'll have cost comparative peanuts and not really held anyone back but if he succeeds, it could have a massively positive impact on the squad and team.

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Ada

by NewCorkSeth » 23 Jul 2019 08:49

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Snowflake Royal FYI, on an objective check, dispossessed per game stats for our midfielders last season:
Ejaria - 1.8
Meyler - 1.8
Swift - 1.6
Bacuna - 1.2
Rinomhota - 0.8
Kelly - 0.7
Baker - 0.6
Ezatolahi - 0.5
Olise ( :shock: ) - 0.3
East - 0


Unsuccessful touches per game:
Swift - 2.2
Ezatolahi - 2
Ejaria - 1.9
Rinomhota - 1.3
Baker - 1.3
Olise - 1.3
Bacuna - 1.2
East - 1
Meyler - 0.8
Kelly - 0.6

It's objectively not true really isn't it Wycombe.

If you went purely on stats Kelly would be first name on the team sheet for central midfield and Rino would be on the bench. But for those that live in the real world and not on FM/FIFA stats we know that is objectively not true.

I mean, this is wrong on so many levels Wycombe.

I've never advocated picking players solely on stats. I've always said they're only part of the picture. Rinomhota is actually better than Kelly in the stats based system of Whoscored.com based on last year. Rino would be pretty much my first name on the team sheet.

But you suggested Kelly dwelt on the ball losing it a lot. That's an objective claim, which those objective stats don't support. An do you know why I checked them? Because having watched Kelly play numerous times, I thought he was a player who lost the ball rarely.

Plenty of reasons to criticise Kelly without making up false ones.

Isnt it a subjective claim? I mean it was based on opinion right? Not facts.

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by Maneki Neko » 23 Jul 2019 08:55

low risk moneyball signing.
identify what the squad is missing, in this case, experience, quality, deadball ability, cover in midfield. fill that gap for no money with a player other people have written off..

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by Hound » 23 Jul 2019 08:56

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Hendo Not too fussed with this, comes across well in his interview, it’s only for a year and sounds like he actually wants to be a leader and for someone for the kids can come to for advice.

I still think it's a stupid signing because we need people to play and he's unlikely to manage to start 10 games let alone 40

But if he can be available to play regularly at a decent level, he's a good signing. And he does come across extremely well in his interview.


But if those 10 starts allow us to rest an Olise, Holsgrove, Swift or A.N.Other player to ensure they are not getting over cooked at an early age or risking an injury on a fragile body?

What if they allow us to play a more effective version of the 3-5-2 (or 5-3-2) we played at Norwich/Bristol last season by forming a strong base in front of 3 CBs that allows the full back to bomb on and pick up his long balls from deep?

What if he is also able to impart his experience of playing in the PL and at 2 big clubs?

If he bombs, he bombs - in 12 months he's gone and we never speak of him again, he'll have cost comparative peanuts and not really held anyone back but if he succeeds, it could have a massively positive impact on the squad and team.


yeah this pretty much. After my initial horror, have come round to the idea.

I'm assuming its cheap, and after hearing the interview, he has a clear purpose for coming here. I suspect like O'Shea he fancies coaching in a couple of years, and its a step on the road to that.

Provides a solid base in the middle if needs be, and provides a clear plan B by throwing in crosses and set pieces to the big boys. If it doesn't work out, so be it. He'll be released at the end of the year

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by Nameless » 23 Jul 2019 08:59

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NewCorkSeth Well then you have lost grip on the reality of where we are as a club.



What, by saying a player who hasn't even kicked a ball for us shouldn't be written off completely before he has done anything?

I think it's you that have lost your grip on reality.

No. By thinking that our transfer strategy since relegation has been good. I think Bacuna and Evans are the only players we have made a profit on. We have tried this exact type of signing several times since then. How many times has it worked out? It might sure but that is following the "throw enough shit at a wall and some might stick" mantra.

Williams, Norwood, Evans, Quinn, van den Berg, Wieser, Swift, Edwards, Bacuna and Meyler have all arrived since 2013. 10 CMs in 6 seasons not including loans and arguably only 5 could be called a success. There is something wrong with our scouting or transfer team.


Making a profit is maybe not a good metric.
Over 6 seasons we’ve had 5 (?) managers, several owners, 2 DofF and undoubtably lots of different scouting structures and personnel. It would be interesting to find out what the ‘success’ rate of signings is generally. I would suspect in clubs similar to ours in recent years it’s not high. Even clubs like Man City sign 0layers that don’t work out and I would reckon at Chelsea much more than 50% of signings don’t become first team regulars.


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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Ada

by Snowflake Royal » 23 Jul 2019 09:02

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Wycombe Royal If you went purely on stats Kelly would be first name on the team sheet for central midfield and Rino would be on the bench. But for those that live in the real world and not on FM/FIFA stats we know that is objectively not true.

I mean, this is wrong on so many levels Wycombe.

I've never advocated picking players solely on stats. I've always said they're only part of the picture. Rinomhota is actually better than Kelly in the stats based system of Whoscored.com based on last year. Rino would be pretty much my first name on the team sheet.

But you suggested Kelly dwelt on the ball losing it a lot. That's an objective claim, which those objective stats don't support. An do you know why I checked them? Because having watched Kelly play numerous times, I thought he was a player who lost the ball rarely.

Plenty of reasons to criticise Kelly without making up false ones.


Genuine question - how is ‘unsuccessful touches’ an objective statistic ? It involves a third party trying to guess what a player is trying to do. It’s subjective.
It also doesn’t consider whether the player was trying a brilliant touch which just failed or absolutely messed up a simple effort. It doesn’t consider whether the player had been stitched up by a poor pass, whether the touch was in a dangerous area or whether a rubbish touch happened to fall to a team mate rather than opponent.
I’m sure there is huge science behind it, but I remain sceptical.
The numbers quoted also seem to ignore a basic principle of having a decent sample size. East hasn’t even played a full game and hardly got a touch in the game he played. Meyler has barely played and I would suggest 0.8 touches represents his entire contribution rather than an average.

Meyler was shit, but averaged almost 40 passes a game (76% successful) - I realise that was a joke.

I guess I should have said more objective rather than objective. I do have some skepticism about how it's collected and how accurate it is, but it will be more accurate than a fan's view. Yes, it takes no account of circumstance for each instance, but that is why it's useful to inform, and stats aren't the be all and end all. Although causal factors should even out across the team and appearances to allow a fair comparison.

Anyway, this got rather boring, the thread's about Adam, Kelly is gone and I've made my point.

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by Hound » 23 Jul 2019 09:07

NewCorkSeth Williams, Norwood, Evans, Quinn, van den Berg, Wieser, Swift, Edwards, Bacuna and Meyler have all arrived since 2013. 10 CMs in 6 seasons not including loans and arguably only 5 could be called a success. There is something wrong with our scouting or transfer team.


Could argue that only Wieser (who was just a cheap punt), Edwards and Meyler were failures as well though. The others all had their moments. Bacuna and Norwood went for good money, Williams/Swift/VDB/Evans were all instrumental in us getting to within a couple of kicks of the PL

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by Snowflake Royal » 23 Jul 2019 09:10

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Hendo Not too fussed with this, comes across well in his interview, it’s only for a year and sounds like he actually wants to be a leader and for someone for the kids can come to for advice.

I still think it's a stupid signing because we need people to play and he's unlikely to manage to start 10 games let alone 40

But if he can be available to play regularly at a decent level, he's a good signing. And he does come across extremely well in his interview.


But if those 10 starts allow us to rest an Olise, Holsgrove, Swift or A.N.Other player to ensure they are not getting over cooked at an early age or risking an injury on a fragile body?

What if they allow us to play a more effective version of the 3-5-2 (or 5-3-2) we played at Norwich/Bristol last season by forming a strong base in front of 3 CBs that allows the full back to bomb on and pick up his long balls from deep?

What if he is also able to impart his experience of playing in the PL and at 2 big clubs?

If he bombs, he bombs - in 12 months he's gone and we never speak of him again, he'll have cost comparative peanuts and not really held anyone back but if he succeeds, it could have a massively positive impact on the squad and team.

Because Holsgrove / Swift / Olise shouldn't be playing in the same position, either at all or regularly. We need a first choice midfielder to play with Rino.

I don't see any reason to believe we will regularly play a 3-5-2 and I don't see how Adam would make that more likely. We don't have two proper senior midfielders who can be expected to play regularly let alone three. I don't think that shape suits the players at our disposal at all.

I don't see how imparting his PL experience really helps our lack of decent midfielders now.

If he bombs and we don't get anyone else (we're trying to cut wages and squad size remember) we spend the season with half a midfield and probably get relegated, so there is quite a downside.

I just don't see how this signing is anything other than a low success chance waste of precious resources.

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by NewCorkSeth » 23 Jul 2019 09:11

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sandman

What, by saying a player who hasn't even kicked a ball for us shouldn't be written off completely before he has done anything?

I think it's you that have lost your grip on reality.

No. By thinking that our transfer strategy since relegation has been good. I think Bacuna and Evans are the only players we have made a profit on. We have tried this exact type of signing several times since then. How many times has it worked out? It might sure but that is following the "throw enough shit at a wall and some might stick" mantra.

Williams, Norwood, Evans, Quinn, van den Berg, Wieser, Swift, Edwards, Bacuna and Meyler have all arrived since 2013. 10 CMs in 6 seasons not including loans and arguably only 5 could be called a success. There is something wrong with our scouting or transfer team.


Making a profit is maybe not a good metric.
Over 6 seasons we’ve had 5 (?) managers, several owners, 2 DofF and undoubtably lots of different scouting structures and personnel. It would be interesting to find out what the ‘success’ rate of signings is generally. I would suspect in clubs similar to ours in recent years it’s not high. Even clubs like Man City sign 0layers that don’t work out and I would reckon at Chelsea much more than 50% of signings don’t become first team regulars.

The top 6 are not a viable comparison and as I said on another thread, at least Chelsea always make a profit. The big clubs can afford a 50% success rate. We cant.

When I mentioned profit it was to illustrate that the signings we make are perceived as poor investments by other clubs too. Otherwise we wouldn't be in this financial hole.

We are so horrific at transfer dealings and contract management we just had to let Kelly go for nothing to get him off our books. I reckon there are very few clubs as poor as we have been in the transfer market in the last 5 or so years, that haven't been relegated because of it.


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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by NewCorkSeth » 23 Jul 2019 09:13

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NewCorkSeth Williams, Norwood, Evans, Quinn, van den Berg, Wieser, Swift, Edwards, Bacuna and Meyler have all arrived since 2013. 10 CMs in 6 seasons not including loans and arguably only 5 could be called a success. There is something wrong with our scouting or transfer team.


Could argue that only Wieser (who was just a cheap punt), Edwards and Meyler were failures as well though. The others all had their moments. Bacuna and Norwood went for good money, Williams/Swift/VDB/Evans were all instrumental in us getting to within a couple of kicks of the PL

Did Norwood go for good money? I thought he went for the same as what we paid for him?

I would call Quinn a failure as well though.

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by The Enfield Royal71 » 23 Jul 2019 09:31

genome

:lol:


:lol: x10000

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by The Enfield Royal71 » 23 Jul 2019 09:37

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He was decent 5ish years ago or whenever it was when he left Liverpool. Always struck me as the kind of player with an attitude of arrogance and he is better then others.

Fully in the Edwards and Meyler camp for me. But I will give him the chance and hope he prooves me wrong.

I would have kept Kelly then rather tbh. I think this isn't the sort of signing we need to progress.


Not every signing moves you immediately forward. Coppell’s initial signings came in to do a specific short term job while he assembled the Greatest Team Ever. Sometimes you need a short term player to tide you over (Adam plays a season while Holsgrove develops to take over next summer perhaps).


I think football has progressed so much in 13+ years since then that the fans expect, and it seems that clubs need in order to progress and not go backwards, to make whatever signings they have important and a step forward. Another Doyle and Long will be extremely hard and rare to find.

He may well be and I hope he is but judging by the recent players of his ilk we have signed why would anybody be hopeful. He was released by Stoke, who aren't pulling any trees up and aren't that much better then us, for a reason. I hope he isn't in it for one last payday and maybe he's doing or thinking of coaching badges and wants to mentor and coach here after the year is up and that is great imo. He has a good footballing brain clearly but the pace of the league and the game has caught up with him.

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by Silver Fox » 23 Jul 2019 09:39

Always impressed with how much people have to say about a signing they describe as meh


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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by Hound » 23 Jul 2019 09:43

Silver Fox Always impressed with how much people have to say about a signing they describe as meh


tbh its more interesting in many ways than Miazga if he comes. only so much 'yeah its an amazingly good signing' posts you can make. Adam is an intriguing signing

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by biff » 23 Jul 2019 09:47

"Moneyball" singings were based on stats. So this certainly can't count as one.


https://twitter.com/mixedknuts/status/1 ... 29441?s=20

"He thinks he can pass like Ederson. He in fact passes like kidney stones." :lol:

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by NewCorkSeth » 23 Jul 2019 09:54

biff "Moneyball" singings were based on stats. So this certainly can't count as one.


https://twitter.com/mixedknuts/status/1 ... 29441?s=20

"He thinks he can pass like Ederson. He in fact passes like kidney stones." :lol:

I hope those talking about his passing ability have a nice long look at this. Of course different styles and tactics make a big difference. If hes asked to play it short and simple he cant really oxf*rd it up but the beauty of Baker was his expansive passing range. Not a like for like signing eh?

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by Barney » 23 Jul 2019 10:11

Maneki Neko low risk moneyball signing.
identify what the squad is missing, in this case, experience, quality, deadball ability, cover in midfield. fill that gap for no money with a player other people have written off..


Totally agree with this above. Can't quite understand the insane levels of negativity.

Getting experience for, hopefully, 20+ games this coming season. Gives the other midfield players a break during the season. The bloke clearly has played a lot of football at a decent level. Gourley isn't involved. And if it goes pear-shaped in 12 months, off he trots back to Blackpool.
And we haven't paid a transfer fee.

Seems like a win win to me.

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by windermereROYAL » 23 Jul 2019 10:12

Charlie Adam hasn't got a league goal or assist since January 2017. He started nine of Stoke's last 89 league games. Not played 1800 minutes in a league season since leaving Liverpool in 2012.

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by Nameless » 23 Jul 2019 10:53

windermereROYAL Charlie Adam hasn't got a league goal or assist since January 2017. He started nine of Stoke's last 89 league games. Not played 1800 minutes in a league season since leaving Liverpool in 2012.


Matt Miazga hasn't started a game for his own club since 2016.
He's only scored 4 goals since 2013.
He's started 2 of Chelsea's last 150 games (rough estimate !)
Past numbers are interesting but not everything.
We've signed some players that on paper looked awful but who did a good job for us and some who looked like great buys who did nothing.
He starts with a clean sheet, we'll know soon enough whether it's a smart move to get him or a waste of a few quid.
Sometimes a change of club and being made to feel wanted makes a huge difference

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Re: CONFIMRED - Charlie Adam

by NewCorkSeth » 23 Jul 2019 11:07

Nameless
windermereROYAL Charlie Adam hasn't got a league goal or assist since January 2017. He started nine of Stoke's last 89 league games. Not played 1800 minutes in a league season since leaving Liverpool in 2012.


Matt Miazga hasn't started a game for his own club since 2016.
He's only scored 4 goals since 2013.
He's started 2 of Chelsea's last 150 games (rough estimate !)
Past numbers are interesting but not everything.
We've signed some players that on paper looked awful but who did a good job for us and some who looked like great buys who did nothing.
He starts with a clean sheet, we'll know soon enough whether it's a smart move to get him or a waste of a few quid.
Sometimes a change of club and being made to feel wanted makes a huge difference

Yes, inductive reasoning isnt always correct when analysing footballers. But it is more often correct in older players than younger ones. A better example for you would have been Glenn Murray or James Milner.

Adam has been poor bordering on bad for a few seasons. He may work out here but the "give him a chance" attitude is equally as extreme as the "he will be shit" attitude. All evidence points towards him not being what we need.

Snowflake has pointed this out rather well. He doesn't fit into our apparent transfer strategy.

The idea that he will fill in for other players to give them a rest is also bollocks. O'Shea did that last season and was awful. McIntyre also did a small bit of filling in and was heaps better. I would rather see East fill in as required than Adam.

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