BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

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Hound
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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by Hound » 02 Oct 2019 09:10

NewCorkSeth
Hound Yes spot on ^^

Yeah. +1. I know I am reactionary as a poster and desperately want to see our 4-3-3 from last season but stability is really what we need.


I don't mind if he goes 5-3-2 or 4-3-3 but stick with the bloody thing. And play players that suite the system. tbh think 4-3-3 suits us better just about.

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by retro royal » 02 Oct 2019 09:22

Terrible first half performance, still no shape, change in formation no doubt doesn't help, maybe Moore needs a rest, Gomes needs to stop pulling the youngest players off because he doesn't have the guts to pull a senior player off. We have no width in this squad.

Thought Boye looked better in the middle and would like to see Ejaria on the left be interesting to see if Olise gets a chance on Saturday, very much doubt it, expecting Gomes to put Adam in :roll:

Hate to say it Gomes has had almost 30 games now, results really haven't improved, what worries me most is the lack of formation and positioning, players don't seem to know what each other are doing.

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by Norfolk Royal » 02 Oct 2019 09:46

Had a sickening feeling that Swift would get sent off following the first booking. He seemed to go out there like a man possessed (not necessarily a bad thing as it shows passion) and the first booking looked bad but in reality wasn't, made worse by the Fulham players doing a number on the ref.

With that in mind, it would have been a bold move for Gomes to have substituted Swift after that because he continued to buzz around the pitch like an angry hornet. You don't substitute one of your best players after a booking I know but maybe, maybe.

The second challenge was reckless given the first booking, crazy stuff.

As others have said, Fulham would have beaten us anyway, they looked a class above, but we don't do ourselves any favours do we?

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by Zammo » 02 Oct 2019 09:48

We were beat as soon as the side was picked. Tinkerman strikes again.

John Swift the highest rated creative midfielder in the division going in for tackles like that. Why ? Because Gomes picked another lightweight XI, got his tactics wrong again and we conceded early AGAIN. LOL at the centre circle dressing down after the game. That was just for show. He’ll be out of a job just after 5pm on Saturday.

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by paultheroyal » 02 Oct 2019 09:49

Thought it was quite telling that Moore went to the media last night. Don’t think that has happened before.

He was very coded in his words and clearly does not like the shuffling around of the team, particularly the defence and made comment that he has now been put back on the side of the back four that he is used to.

I fear for Gomes, fair play for last year, gets credit for that. However his overall record is quite shocking. One of the worst I believe in win ratio in recent times.

Whilst Hughton is available, maybe a change is needed.


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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by Snowflake Royal » 02 Oct 2019 09:51

Hound
NewCorkSeth
Hound Yes spot on ^^

Yeah. +1. I know I am reactionary as a poster and desperately want to see our 4-3-3 from last season but stability is really what we need.


I don't mind if he goes 5-3-2 or 4-3-3 but stick with the bloody thing. And play players that suite the system. tbh think 4-3-3 suits us better just about.

The formation won't help because the entire team is fundamentally disorganised and disjointed.

You defend well by defending as a unit and squeezing the space the opposition has in your defensive third. We do none of this.

Our CBs are constantly split and miles apart because we try to play our. Our full backs are miles up the pitch leaving gaping holes on our flanks. A CB has to come across leaving a gaping hole in the middle, or if they both come an even bigger one on the far flank. Easy space for midfielders and wingers to attack.

We have one midfielder with any sort of remotely defensive brain and he has to cover the entire middle third of the pitch plus whatever enormous hole we have currently in defence.

You cannot play in the Championship with six or even seven attacking players.

We stand off because we're always outnumbered when defending. When we do have full backs in position they're double and tripled up on. If a midfielder or CB supports them they leave a huge gap.

We mark space and don't close down. Midfield runners rarely get tracked.

It's disgraceful. The defensive coaching and tactics are non-existent.

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by windermereROYAL » 02 Oct 2019 09:51

I keep thinking we are living the same season year on year, managers change but performances don`t, just short of 50% losing record for the last 28 games at home with only 9 wins in that time, not easy being a fan of this lot is it?

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by Hendo » 02 Oct 2019 09:53

windermereROYAL I keep thinking we are living the same season year on year, managers change but performances don`t, just short of 50% losing record for the last 28 games at home with only 9 wins in that time, not easy being a fan of this lot is it?


No it isn't, but it wasn't before the early 90s and before the early 00s either.

Football is pretty cyclical.

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by Hound » 02 Oct 2019 09:59

Snowflake Royal
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NewCorkSeth Yeah. +1. I know I am reactionary as a poster and desperately want to see our 4-3-3 from last season but stability is really what we need.


I don't mind if he goes 5-3-2 or 4-3-3 but stick with the bloody thing. And play players that suite the system. tbh think 4-3-3 suits us better just about.

The formation won't help because the entire team is fundamentally disorganised and disjointed.

You defend well by defending as a unit and squeezing the space the opposition has in your defensive third. We do none of this.

Our CBs are constantly split and miles apart because we try to play our. Our full backs are miles up the pitch leaving gaping holes on our flanks. A CB has to come across leaving a gaping hole in the middle, or if they both come an even bigger one on the far flank. Easy space for midfielders and wingers to attack.

We have one midfielder with any sort of remotely defensive brain and he has to cover the entire middle third of the pitch plus whatever enormous hole we have currently in defence.

You cannot play in the Championship with six or even seven attacking players.

We stand off because we're always outnumbered when defending. When we do have full backs in position they're double and tripled up on. If a midfielder or CB supports them they leave a huge gap.

We mark space and don't close down. Midfield runners rarely get tracked.

It's disgraceful. The defensive coaching and tactics are non-existent.


Yep and I could add plenty more to that.

It’s why I can’t see it getting any better under Gomes

Harking back to last year, with Clement you could see what we were trying to do. You could see how we were trying to set up each week

It wasn’t great but you could see where and how we could improve

I just can’t see where things are going to click currently


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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by Snowflake Royal » 02 Oct 2019 10:07

windermereROYAL I keep thinking we are living the same season year on year, managers change but performances don`t, just short of 50% losing record for the last 28 games at home with only 9 wins in that time, not easy being a fan of this lot is it?

Since McDermott took us up we've won less than 10 home games every season bar one.

Exclude that and our record is:
P139, W42, D46, L51, F168, A175, GD -7, ppg 1.24, w% 30, D% 33, L% 37

It's been a God awful best part of a decade.

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by windermereROYAL » 02 Oct 2019 10:09

Snowflake Royal
windermereROYAL I keep thinking we are living the same season year on year, managers change but performances don`t, just short of 50% losing record for the last 28 games at home with only 9 wins in that time, not easy being a fan of this lot is it?

Since McDermott took us up we've won less than 10 home games every season bar one.

Exclude that and our record is:
P139, W42, D46, L51, F168, A175, GD -7, ppg 1.24, w% 30, D% 33, L% 37

It's been a God awful best part of a decade.


Ouch :shock:

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by Vision » 02 Oct 2019 10:13

retro royal Terrible first half performance, still no shape, change in formation no doubt doesn't help, maybe Moore needs a rest, Gomes needs to stop pulling the youngest players off because he doesn't have the guts to pull a senior player off. We have no width in this squad.

Thought Boye looked better in the middle and would like to see Ejaria on the left be interesting to see if Olise gets a chance on Saturday, very much doubt it, expecting Gomes to put Adam in :roll:

Hate to say it Gomes has had almost 30 games now, results really haven't improved, what worries me most is the lack of formation and positioning, players don't seem to know what each other are doing.


Barrett should have been pulled off the moment Swift was sent off. Not his fault but it was never going to be his sort of game once we were down to ten.

The main issue for me though is how poorly we adapt to game situations. I hate to harp on about the past but Coppell would more often that not credit his players with the intelligence to sort things out for themselves on the pitch . The game here wasn't lost because of the sending off as such, (although playing 10 men for 70 minutes against Fulham isn't the most ideal situation), but because we didn't react to it on the field.

Surely the instant reaction to losing a man is to go ultra defensive for a bit until you can find the right shape. We just seemed to carry on as before ignoring the fact that Swift was no longer there. Maybe this is down to Gomes micromanaging so much that players aren't capable of thinking for themselves but surely it doesn't take much thought to just fall back into two banks of 4 until we can make adjustments.

I'll go against the grain here and say that "effort" really isn't the issue and the players did put in a shift particularly Ejaria and Rino in the middle of midfield although for the most part the former seems to be taking a battering on here . I also don't think we started that badly either, a very good chance early on which might have changed things. Again though once things started going pear shaped we didn't seem able to adjust to it. Add in the fact that individually all the back 4 had their worst games of the season at the same time then its a recipe for disaster.

Gomes of course takes ultimate responsibility for this and he's going to be under pressure rightly but is now really the time to sack yet another manager? I have the same feeling I had now as when the Yongge's took over. When Stam arrived all the talk was of us being Academy focused but as soon as there was a sniff of the Premier League Money Machine out came the chequebook and in came big money (for us) signings. This didn't end with the disappointment of the approach failing. Clement was given a relative fortune to spend on players over half of whom were up for sale barely 4 months later. Astonishingly too despite obstacles being put in their way , the owners still eventually found a way to spend unheard of sums once again this summer. The narrative has been that Stam, Clement and mainly Gourlay were all the villains in our decline but here we sit with Gourlay long gone , "our club back" ha! and exactly the same feeling we've had the past two season only with added financial commitments. Anyone who thought Howe was going to automatically be a more prudent, calming financial steward obviously wasn't around or conveniently forgot when Madejski was on his Malaysian tax dodge and Howe was sanctioning insane transfer fees for 3rd tier crap under Burns.

For those that want Gomes gone, it won't take much longer. It's clear these owners are intent on Premiership Football as soon as they can get it and will pull the trigger if they don't think the manager can deliver it. Ambition is a good thing in general and I'm not for one minute suggesting they're fly by night merchants (the Bearwood Development would indicate not) but we've pretty much found ourselves in the same situation at this stage of every season they've been at the helm.

At some stage you've got to question their methodology. Gomes has flaws and was a baffling appointment at the time but despite that there are positive things and sparks that I see that I haven't seen for a while. However when a manager confidently states that he prefers to work with a smaller group of younger players then within a matter of months he's working with an even more bloated squad than the one he inherited you have to wonder whether we really have any plan at all.

Apologies for the slightly off topic ramble

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by Snowflake Royal » 02 Oct 2019 10:15

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I don't mind if he goes 5-3-2 or 4-3-3 but stick with the bloody thing. And play players that suite the system. tbh think 4-3-3 suits us better just about.

The formation won't help because the entire team is fundamentally disorganised and disjointed.

You defend well by defending as a unit and squeezing the space the opposition has in your defensive third. We do none of this.

Our CBs are constantly split and miles apart because we try to play our. Our full backs are miles up the pitch leaving gaping holes on our flanks. A CB has to come across leaving a gaping hole in the middle, or if they both come an even bigger one on the far flank. Easy space for midfielders and wingers to attack.

We have one midfielder with any sort of remotely defensive brain and he has to cover the entire middle third of the pitch plus whatever enormous hole we have currently in defence.

You cannot play in the Championship with six or even seven attacking players.

We stand off because we're always outnumbered when defending. When we do have full backs in position they're double and tripled up on. If a midfielder or CB supports them they leave a huge gap.

We mark space and don't close down. Midfield runners rarely get tracked.

It's disgraceful. The defensive coaching and tactics are non-existent.


Yep and I could add plenty more to that.

It’s why I can’t see it getting any better under Gomes

Harking back to last year, with Clement you could see what we were trying to do. You could see how we were trying to set up each week

It wasn’t great but you could see where and how we could improve

I just can’t see where things are going to click currently

Yes. And under Clement there were excuses that we had loads of dead wood, limited resources to sign players, a clueless CEO, huge numbers of medium to long term injuries.

Gomes has a competent CEO, few injury worries, had plenty of recruitment in the end, has cleared a lot of the deadwood (and some of the young promise). But he's floundering with no plan and reverted to the sort of pissing about at the back that saw us slide into this mess in the first place.

It's Stam 2.0
Start the season brightly and look good, but a few individual errors and poor results lower confidence and we're on the back foot. The odd false dawn, but generally totally tactically inept and the source of our own downfall, with endless tinkering to the starting line up.

Gomes will not be here at the end of the season. It's just a matter of time. You can't start this badly and recover. He'll limp on for a bit, there'll be false dawns, the crowd will get more and more on his back and he'll go.

And then a few people will say he definitely would have turned it around and we should never have got rid for the next 5 years.


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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by royal_rumble » 02 Oct 2019 10:43

Playing Swift unbalances the team immeasurably. He is a luxury player we don't have room for. What worked at the end of last season? Baker deep defensive mid, Rino box to box and Ojaria free to get forward and support the front man.

Why doesn't he play Pele deep, drop Swift and keep it the same otherwise. Guess maybe that will happen after last nights debacle.

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by Hound » 02 Oct 2019 10:48

How is he a luxury when he has either scored or assisted about 65% of our goals this year?

He has been our best player by a mile so far. The only source of chance creation pretty much

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by Snowflake Royal » 02 Oct 2019 10:51

Hound How is he a luxury when he has either scored or assisted about 65% of our goals this year?

He has been our best player by a mile so far. The only source of chance creation pretty much

He isn't the one to drop necessarily but one of him and Ejaria can'tplay in midfield and he is still pretty rubbish in his defensive duties, if improved on last season.

You also can't rely on 'give it to Swift' as the sole goalscoring tactic.

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by Hound » 02 Oct 2019 10:54

Snowflake Royal
Hound How is he a luxury when he has either scored or assisted about 65% of our goals this year?

He has been our best player by a mile so far. The only source of chance creation pretty much

He isn't the one to drop necessarily but one of him and Ejaria can'tplay in midfield and he is still pretty rubbish in his defensive duties, if improved on last season.

You also can't rely on 'give it to Swift' as the sole goalscoring tactic.


Agreed. But it’s clearly Ejaria who is the one to drop

You can’t rely on ‘give it to Swift’ But that’s what we are doing. So unless we dramatically change our approach he is our most impt player

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by John Smith » 02 Oct 2019 11:00

I thought Barrett was pretty poor - didn't link up with Richards or Puscas at all and looked out of his depth. Puscas was totally isolated and looks like he's regretting being here but he did show some fight - there was a decent chase of a lost cause which he won towards the end of the first half.

Swift's 2nd booking very harsh for me and we were destined to lose from then on. Not sure where all the Meite plaudits are coming from - totally anonymous and isn't a winger.

What an unbelievably good player Harry Arter is.

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by Danny Nedelko » 02 Oct 2019 11:05

The amount of times we have conceded in the opening 10-15 mins of a half is ridiculous and comes back to the earlier point of closing down/pressing. We simply dont do it and that doesnt work in today's game, where every other team will. Is it the players, the manager or worry about fitness levels?!? Cant be the latter so its either players cant be arsed, or they've not been told to.....or alternatively, they aren't comfortable in their positions yet and worried about leaving space.
Feck knows, but they have to sort that aspect of the team out right friggin now.

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Re: BFT ???????????????????????????????????????????

by Millsy » 02 Oct 2019 11:12

Snowflake Royal
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NewCorkSeth Yeah. +1. I know I am reactionary as a poster and desperately want to see our 4-3-3 from last season but stability is really what we need.


I don't mind if he goes 5-3-2 or 4-3-3 but stick with the bloody thing. And play players that suite the system. tbh think 4-3-3 suits us better just about.

The formation won't help because the entire team is fundamentally disorganised and disjointed.

You defend well by defending as a unit and squeezing the space the opposition has in your defensive third. We do none of this.

Our CBs are constantly split and miles apart because we try to play our. Our full backs are miles up the pitch leaving gaping holes on our flanks. A CB has to come across leaving a gaping hole in the middle, or if they both come an even bigger one on the far flank. Easy space for midfielders and wingers to attack.

We have one midfielder with any sort of remotely defensive brain and he has to cover the entire middle third of the pitch plus whatever enormous hole we have currently in defence.

You cannot play in the Championship with six or even seven attacking players.

We stand off because we're always outnumbered when defending. When we do have full backs in position they're double and tripled up on. If a midfielder or CB supports them they leave a huge gap.

We mark space and don't close down. Midfield runners rarely get tracked.

It's disgraceful. The defensive coaching and tactics are non-existent.


All true.

But the point with the formation isn't necessarily what the formation is but just that we have one that is consistent.

It's harder to sort all the issues you rightly mention when we keep chopping and changing formation (and starting players for that matter).

It can be a 10-0-0 for all I care as long as we have some consistency and do that 10-0-0 well.

I get the impression Gomes is looking for a magic formation rather than just sticking with whatever he feels is the best one and then ironing out the issues you mention within the context of that formation.

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