Upset the Apple cart.

URZZZZ
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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by URZZZZ » 30 Dec 2019 12:41

NewCorkSeth
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URZZZZ
Should we keep a back four that has kept 4 clean sheets in a row? Yes. Yes is the answer

However Yiadom isn’t back for a couple of weeks yet I don’t think so circumstances by then may change

Even if he was back now, IMO he has to work his way back into the team from the subs bench, even though I think he's easily better than Gunter.

Team >>>>> individual

Depends on the player no? Swift didnt have to work his way back into the team.

You think if TAA got injured Klopp wouldn't slot him back in even if Gomez had been good?


That’s different though. Because Gomez is predominantly a CB. Both Gunter and Yiadom are RB’s

If the talent between the two is substantially different it makes sense. For example, Adrian and Allison at Liverpool. But Gunter and Yiadom aren’t that far apart in talent. Both have got faults, both have got redeeming features

We’ve kept as many clean sheets in the last four as we have the entire season. It’d be nonsensical to change it

Interestingly enough, you’ve said before that you think Obita is better than Blackett? Would you do that change too? And I guess you think Miazga is our best defender?

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by Hound » 30 Dec 2019 12:41

Yiadom is a way off still I believe

Tbh by the time he comes back we probably won’t be on a run of 4 clean sheets. If he was fit now I wouldn’t bring him straight back in

What Gunts has done has allowed Yiadom time to fully recover and not be rushed back, and that is a big win. A fit refreshed Yiadom is a big player for us

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by Victor Meldrew » 30 Dec 2019 12:49

NewCorkSeth
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NewCorkSeth And if we had won 3 in a row you would be against bring our best player back into the team?

Yes.

I see.


I think Ian's point about needing to earn your place to get back into a winning team is valid up to a point but more so perhaps in amateur sport and not so in the hard world of professional sport.

I agree with Seth that Klopp or Guardiola or Mourinho would go with what he perceives to be the best team available regardless of recent results.
We tend to think that this can effect team spirit, something we believe to be very important in this country, but I am of the view that players are now part of a first team squad and the spirit of the squad is more important than the spirit of one particular starting line-up.

It could well be that Morrison and Moore actually hate having Gunter in the defence ( I know I would :wink: ) and it looks as though Rafael may not be his biggest fan either so bringing Yiadom back straightaway may do little to affect team morale and anyway Yiadom is more likely to remain one of our players in the longer term so I would prefer to see him happy rather than our multi-capped and over-rated ( by his country) replacement.

BTW I am as surprised and pleased as everybody else at how Gunter has not let the side down (yet :wink: ) over these past few games but please let's not go over the top in our sense of relief.
Ironically I think the same comment goes for Blackett in that if fully fit we would want Obita back in as soon as possible with the same sense of relief that we have got away with playing Blackett in this current good run.

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by NewCorkSeth » 30 Dec 2019 13:12

URZZZZ
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Snowflake Royal Even if he was back now, IMO he has to work his way back into the team from the subs bench, even though I think he's easily better than Gunter.

Team >>>>> individual

Depends on the player no? Swift didnt have to work his way back into the team.

You think if TAA got injured Klopp wouldn't slot him back in even if Gomez had been good?


That’s different though. Because Gomez is predominantly a CB. Both Gunter and Yiadom are RB’s

If the talent between the two is substantially different it makes sense. For example, Adrian and Allison at Liverpool. But Gunter and Yiadom aren’t that far apart in talent. Both have got faults, both have got redeeming features

We’ve kept as many clean sheets in the last four as we have the entire season. It’d be nonsensical to change it

Interestingly enough, you’ve said before that you think Obita is better than Blackett? Would you do that change too? And I guess you think Miazga is our best defender?

I reckon TAA and Gomez arent that far apart either. I know he is a CB but he is their back up RB. TAA offers more going forward like Yiadom does for us.

I dont recall saying Obita is better than Blackett but I guess he was? Best of Obita vs best of Blackett? Obita probably pips him yeah. I wouldn't change that because Blackett has done better than Gunter and neither Obita now Richards has been as consistent as Yiadom has. Both have had bright moments but neither have been good enough week in week out to knock out Blackett.

I do not think Miazga is our best defender. He might be our best CB but he certainly hasn't shown it yet. But then I guess he hasn't made as many errors as Morisson. And hes faster and better on the ball too. Yeah, he probably is our best CB. But he hasn't shown it. Moore and Morrison have shown it. Morisson made a key block against QPR and Moore was fantastic last game. Miazga is deservedly on the bench right now.

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by AthleticoSpizz » 01 Jan 2020 21:42

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AthleticoSpizz Steve Coppell once said....”never change a winning team”

What did he know?


How often did we change that team hardly ever through out the whole season. Managers seem obsessed with rotating and freshening things up. Bowen has struck upon a system where the players all seem comfortable why change?
....bit of a theme emerging here :)


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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by Zip » 01 Jan 2020 22:06

Victor Meldrew
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Snowflake Royal Yes.

I see.


I think Ian's point about needing to earn your place to get back into a winning team is valid up to a point but more so perhaps in amateur sport and not so in the hard world of professional sport.

I agree with Seth that Klopp or Guardiola or Mourinho would go with what he perceives to be the best team available regardless of recent results.
We tend to think that this can effect team spirit, something we believe to be very important in this country, but I am of the view that players are now part of a first team squad and the spirit of the squad is more important than the spirit of one particular starting line-up.

It could well be that Morrison and Moore actually hate having Gunter in the defence ( I know I would :wink: ) and it looks as though Rafael may not be his biggest fan either so bringing Yiadom back straightaway may do little to affect team morale and anyway Yiadom is more likely to remain one of our players in the longer term so I would prefer to see him happy rather than our multi-capped and over-rated ( by his country) replacement.

BTW I am as surprised and pleased as everybody else at how Gunter has not let the side down (yet :wink: ) over these past few games but please let's not go over the top in our sense of relief.
Ironically I think the same comment goes for Blackett in that if fully fit we would want Obita back in as soon as possible with the same sense of relief that we have got away with playing Blackett in this current good run.


Oh FFS Vic. There is some nonsense in this post. I’d suggest it very unlikely Morrison and Moore hate playing alongside Gunter. What we have is a very unusual situation where two full backs who were both third choice a month or so ago are now playing very well in a settled back four.
Bowen has some tough calls to make but the likes of Miazga, Obita, Richards and Yiadom should not walk back into a winning side. If it ain’t broke....

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by URZZZZ » 01 Jan 2020 22:24

Zip
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NewCorkSeth I see.


I think Ian's point about needing to earn your place to get back into a winning team is valid up to a point but more so perhaps in amateur sport and not so in the hard world of professional sport.

I agree with Seth that Klopp or Guardiola or Mourinho would go with what he perceives to be the best team available regardless of recent results.
We tend to think that this can effect team spirit, something we believe to be very important in this country, but I am of the view that players are now part of a first team squad and the spirit of the squad is more important than the spirit of one particular starting line-up.

It could well be that Morrison and Moore actually hate having Gunter in the defence ( I know I would :wink: ) and it looks as though Rafael may not be his biggest fan either so bringing Yiadom back straightaway may do little to affect team morale and anyway Yiadom is more likely to remain one of our players in the longer term so I would prefer to see him happy rather than our multi-capped and over-rated ( by his country) replacement.

BTW I am as surprised and pleased as everybody else at how Gunter has not let the side down (yet :wink: ) over these past few games but please let's not go over the top in our sense of relief.
Ironically I think the same comment goes for Blackett in that if fully fit we would want Obita back in as soon as possible with the same sense of relief that we have got away with playing Blackett in this current good run.


Oh FFS Vic. There is some nonsense in this post. I’d suggest it very unlikely Morrison and Moore hate playing alongside Gunter. What we have is a very unusual situation where two full backs who were both third choice a month or so ago are now playing very well in a settled back four.
Bowen has some tough calls to make but the likes of Miazga, Obita, Richards and Yiadom should not walk back into a winning side. If it ain’t broke....


The ironic thing is I guess had Miazga not had picked up his injury just before the Stoke game, Morrison would probably have been the one to have been dropped and we may not have had the success we had

I think whilst Miazga is a very good defender, Morrison brings good experience to the table

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by Zip » 01 Jan 2020 22:43

URZZZZ
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I think Ian's point about needing to earn your place to get back into a winning team is valid up to a point but more so perhaps in amateur sport and not so in the hard world of professional sport.

I agree with Seth that Klopp or Guardiola or Mourinho would go with what he perceives to be the best team available regardless of recent results.
We tend to think that this can effect team spirit, something we believe to be very important in this country, but I am of the view that players are now part of a first team squad and the spirit of the squad is more important than the spirit of one particular starting line-up.

It could well be that Morrison and Moore actually hate having Gunter in the defence ( I know I would :wink: ) and it looks as though Rafael may not be his biggest fan either so bringing Yiadom back straightaway may do little to affect team morale and anyway Yiadom is more likely to remain one of our players in the longer term so I would prefer to see him happy rather than our multi-capped and over-rated ( by his country) replacement.

BTW I am as surprised and pleased as everybody else at how Gunter has not let the side down (yet :wink: ) over these past few games but please let's not go over the top in our sense of relief.
Ironically I think the same comment goes for Blackett in that if fully fit we would want Obita back in as soon as possible with the same sense of relief that we have got away with playing Blackett in this current good run.


Oh FFS Vic. There is some nonsense in this post. I’d suggest it very unlikely Morrison and Moore hate playing alongside Gunter. What we have is a very unusual situation where two full backs who were both third choice a month or so ago are now playing very well in a settled back four.
Bowen has some tough calls to make but the likes of Miazga, Obita, Richards and Yiadom should not walk back into a winning side. If it ain’t broke....


The ironic thing is I guess had Miazga not had picked up his injury just before the Stoke game, Morrison would probably have been the one to have been dropped and we may not have had the success we had

I think whilst Miazga is a very good defender, Morrison brings good experience to the table


Yep and it seems a waste having Miazga on the bench. Both Morrison and Moore look a lot more settled playing in a back four. They are both old school centre backs. Neither can be dropped whilst they are playing like they are.

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by From Despair To Where? » 01 Jan 2020 22:55

Miazga is the better footballer of the three but I think Morrison in particular, brings a level headedness that Miazga sometimes lacks.

I am very much in the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" camp though. Whatever we are doing at the moment is working and that's with Gunter, Blackett and Adam in the team, 3 players who would be way down the list for most people's strongest XI.

Anyway, it's a good selection dilemma to have and that certainly makes a change.


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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by URZZZZ » 02 Jan 2020 00:12

Could be an option to bring in Miazga for Millwall in a couple of weeks for his height

Millwall looked v dangerous from the highlights today from crosses into the box with that lump Smith up top

Although, especially if we beat Forest first, there wouldn’t be too much justification for it

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by Zip » 02 Jan 2020 11:01

URZZZZ Could be an option to bring in Miazga for Millwall in a couple of weeks for his height

Millwall looked v dangerous from the highlights today from crosses into the box with that lump Smith up top

Although, especially if we beat Forest first, there wouldn’t be too much justification for it



Millwall are on a very similar run to us. That will be another very tough game. It doesn’t get easier until the back end of February. If we can stay in touch with the play off chasing sides over the next few weeks we will have plenty of winnable games thereafter.

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by Forbury Lion » 02 Jan 2020 11:12

WestYorksRoyal Yiadom is the only one I'd send straight back in; a pure like for like upgrade on Gunter. Otherwise, the system is working so stick with it. There will be injuries etc. The players you mention will get chances, but for now they must be patient while the team is winning.
Gunter is part of the system, Perhaps his more defensive style is leading to more attacks through the likes of Swift rather than down the right wing from Yiadom?

It's a good position to be in, knowing where/when to change things up will be key.

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by Hound » 02 Jan 2020 11:15

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WestYorksRoyal Yiadom is the only one I'd send straight back in; a pure like for like upgrade on Gunter. Otherwise, the system is working so stick with it. There will be injuries etc. The players you mention will get chances, but for now they must be patient while the team is winning.
Gunter is part of the system, Perhaps his more defensive style is leading to more attacks through the likes of Swift rather than down the right wing from Yiadom?

It's a good position to be in, knowing where/when to change things up will be key.


Absolutely no need to change anything quite yet.

I do wonder a little whether the 1 up top is the way to go at home though. Throughout this little run, we've not been totally dominant in any game, and there are definitely improvements to be had. But the current 11 have earned the chance to stay in the line up


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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by URZZZZ » 02 Jan 2020 11:39

Zip
URZZZZ Could be an option to bring in Miazga for Millwall in a couple of weeks for his height

Millwall looked v dangerous from the highlights today from crosses into the box with that lump Smith up top

Although, especially if we beat Forest first, there wouldn’t be too much justification for it



Millwall are on a very similar run to us. That will be another very tough game. It doesn’t get easier until the back end of February. If we can stay in touch with the play off chasing sides over the next few weeks we will have plenty of winnable games thereafter.


Our next nine games are against PO/Auto chasing teams, when you factor in the last three games were too, that’s 12 on the spin, weird it’s turned out that way

I hope we can get a good crowd against Forest, the players and staff deserve it

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by WestYorksRoyal » 02 Jan 2020 11:40

Hound
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WestYorksRoyal Yiadom is the only one I'd send straight back in; a pure like for like upgrade on Gunter. Otherwise, the system is working so stick with it. There will be injuries etc. The players you mention will get chances, but for now they must be patient while the team is winning.
Gunter is part of the system, Perhaps his more defensive style is leading to more attacks through the likes of Swift rather than down the right wing from Yiadom?

It's a good position to be in, knowing where/when to change things up will be key.


Absolutely no need to change anything quite yet.

I do wonder a little whether the 1 up top is the way to go at home though. Throughout this little run, we've not been totally dominant in any game, and there are definitely improvements to be had. But the current 11 have earned the chance to stay in the line up

I'm curious about this too. I'd expect any team containing Adam, Swift and Ejaria to be able to control games we're expected to win at this level. If anything, I'm surprised how equipped we have been for the last 2 games which have been text book away wins. Hopefully the same players can change their mindsets for home games.

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by Hound » 02 Jan 2020 11:48

one thing I took from yesterday is how ridiculously hard Swift and Ejaria work for two creative players. Ovie especially didn't stop running and tracking back all game

Very impressed with the pair of them - rather than float around waiting to receive the ball, they work their backsides off to win it back, and still then create the moments of quality.

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by WestYorksRoyal » 02 Jan 2020 11:50

Hound one thing I took from yesterday is how ridiculously hard Swift and Ejaria work for two creative players. Ovie especially didn't stop running and tracking back all game

Very impressed with the pair of them - rather than float around waiting to receive the ball, they work their backsides off to win it back, and still then create the moments of quality.

Nothing captures this better than 1st goal. Started with Ejaria intercepting and breaking up a dangerous attack. 20 seconds later he'd played in Blackett to provide the cross.

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by Hound » 02 Jan 2020 12:09

WestYorksRoyal
Hound one thing I took from yesterday is how ridiculously hard Swift and Ejaria work for two creative players. Ovie especially didn't stop running and tracking back all game

Very impressed with the pair of them - rather than float around waiting to receive the ball, they work their backsides off to win it back, and still then create the moments of quality.

Nothing captures this better than 1st goal. Started with Ejaria intercepting and breaking up a dangerous attack. 20 seconds later he'd played in Blackett to provide the cross.


Also Swift running back to block a cross in a dangerous position in the 93rd min or so. I honestly think they are 2 of the best midfielders in the division - ie both top 10. Lucky to have them

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by Royalwaster » 02 Jan 2020 12:34

This is very much the work ethic Mark Bowen will have learned from managing stoke alongside Mark Hughes .... they even managed to teach Marko Arnautovic how to work hard and not just swan around as he'd previously done.

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Re: Upset the Apple cart.

by Zip » 02 Jan 2020 12:50

URZZZZ
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URZZZZ Could be an option to bring in Miazga for Millwall in a couple of weeks for his height

Millwall looked v dangerous from the highlights today from crosses into the box with that lump Smith up top

Although, especially if we beat Forest first, there wouldn’t be too much justification for it



Millwall are on a very similar run to us. That will be another very tough game. It doesn’t get easier until the back end of February. If we can stay in touch with the play off chasing sides over the next few weeks we will have plenty of winnable games thereafter.


Our next nine games are against PO/Auto chasing teams, when you factor in the last three games were too, that’s 12 on the spin, weird it’s turned out that way

I hope we can get a good crowd against Forest, the players and staff deserve it


Very much my sentiments too. I hope we get 18,000 against Forest.

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