MATCHWATCH : Wigan Athletic (h) sponsored by Nicky Forster

[Snowball]

Tbf to them, I think Wigan have been very good. Surprisingly so

But NOT surprising based on their last six away or our home form as I posted before the game



They have now W3 D2 L2 in their last 7 away

Second half Rafael made FOUR saves and there was one block

Had three of those gone in I think Bowen would be gone today

I was worried about this one but had we had a go and been kept out, lost 0-1 to that frankly brilliant first goal, or conceded a second at the death on the break, that I could have lived with.

What is disheartening was the lack of effort, lack of desire (BTW I thought Araruna DID show desire and played OK)

They looked, REALLY looked like a relegation side. Body language was shocking, they should be fined for that third goal. Meite is terrible as a target man, worst I’ve seen Ejaria play, back four were ragged, Baldock ran but to little purpose

They looked like a team that didn’t believe in the manager, didn’t look LIKE a team.

I also think we miss Blackett and that Blackett-Ejaria-Swift trio down the left.

This is not a one-off.

We won 3 drew 1 of our first 4, then won 4 back to back around Xmas. 22 points.

Those points have made us feel safe but consider what the other 16 games have brought us.

Maybe not always in terms of performance but the points accrual outside those two short purple patches is probably the worst in the league.

That is bizarre

[Hound]

Tbf to them, I think Wigan have been very good. Surprisingly so

Had three of those gone in I think Bowen would be gone today

Can you get your stats machine in action again to tell me his overall record as manager here and then let me know if you think he still would have been sacked?

[Old Man Andrews]

I think you missed the word “away” out when you talk about Bowen’s results records in such a positive manner.

Couldn’t agree more about C1871 not covering themselves in glory last night, although it was a tough ask after our worst home performance in 2 years since Ipswich.

However, Bowen’s home record is absolute abysmal, and let’s face facts, on the whole, it’s your home results that make or your break you. Past 3 months, P11 W2 D4 L5, that’s is poor by anyone’s standards and is starting to be Reflected in dwindling gates / interest etc. He simply has to find a formula to turn our home record round.

He has totally failed to find a way of playing at home but he has to be judged on his entire record

yep

We've been diabolical at home for ages, bar the Stam season. There's more to it than Bowen being incompetent

The players are playing in front of one of the most un-hostile crowds in world football, they are always given time and patience by our supporters. They have very little excuse to not perform.

I think playing style comes into it too. In the last 3-5 years we haven't played on the front foot, we make it nice and comfortable for away teams to stick players behind the ball and settle into a game.

[Snowball]

Tbf to them, I think Wigan have been very good. Surprisingly so

Had three of those gone in I think Bowen would be gone today

Can you get your stats machine in action again to tell me his overall record as manager here and then let me know if you think he still would have been sacked?

Overall, without looking, I think we were 35 points from 22 before Leeds, now 35 from 24 = 1.45 ppg

Take out those two purple patches and the other games are 13 points from 16 games

Of COURSE what matters is the sum of games and I wouldn’t be mentioning this if the wins were sprinkled throughout the 24 games, but that is now two quite-long poor runs after two 4-game good patches

We need a shock win SOON. If the rest of the season pans out like RFC excluding a purple patch we WILL go down

I will be delighted if we avoid defeat against Barnsley. A defeat followed by a 0-4 against Sheffield in the cup, could send us into a death spiral

[Zip]

Had three of those gone in I think Bowen would be gone today

Can you get your stats machine in action again to tell me his overall record as manager here and then let me know if you think he still would have been sacked?

Overall, without looking, I think we were 35 points from 22 before Leeds, now 35 from 24 = 1.45 ppg

Take out those two purple patches and the other games are 13 points from 16 games

Of COURSE what matters is the sum of games and I wouldn’t be mentioning this if the wins were sprinkled throughout the 24 games, but that is now two quite-long poor runs after two 4-game good patches

We need a shock win SOON. If the rest of the season pans out like RFC excluding a purple patch we WILL go down

I will be delighted if we avoid defeat against Barnsley. A defeat followed by a 0-4 against Sheffield in the cup, could send us into a death spiral

It’s 34 from 24 Snowers.

[Snowball]

Can you get your stats machine in action again to tell me his overall record as manager here and then let me know if you think he still would have been sacked?

Overall, without looking, I think we were 35 points from 22 before Leeds, now 35 from 24 = 1.45 ppg

Take out those two purple patches and the other games are 13 points from 16 games

Of COURSE what matters is the sum of games and I wouldn’t be mentioning this if the wins were sprinkled throughout the 24 games, but that is now two quite-long poor runs after two 4-game good patches

We need a shock win SOON. If the rest of the season pans out like RFC excluding a purple patch we WILL go down

I will be delighted if we avoid defeat against Barnsley. A defeat followed by a 0-4 against Sheffield in the cup, could send us into a death spiral

It’s 34 from 24 Snowers.

Thanks, so overall 1.42 ppg, safe over a full season

but that means 12 points from the 16 games outside the two 4-game purple patches
which is .67 per game 30/31 points in a full 46-game season

[WestYorksRoyal]

Overall, without looking, I think we were 35 points from 22 before Leeds, now 35 from 24 = 1.45 ppg

Take out those two purple patches and the other games are 13 points from 16 games

Of COURSE what matters is the sum of games and I wouldn’t be mentioning this if the wins were sprinkled throughout the 24 games, but that is now two quite-long poor runs after two 4-game good patches

We need a shock win SOON. If the rest of the season pans out like RFC excluding a purple patch we WILL go down

I will be delighted if we avoid defeat against Barnsley. A defeat followed by a 0-4 against Sheffield in the cup, could send us into a death spiral

It’s 34 from 24 Snowers.

Thanks, so overall 1.42 ppg, safe over a full season

but that means 12 points from the 16 games outside the two 4-game purple patches
which is .67 per game 30/31 points in a full 46-game season

Of course, both purple patches were ended by injuries. The initial one playing 352 fell flat when Swift and Ejaria weren't available to create chances. Based upon their current form, its debatable whether returning to it would work, but it must be worth a try. Blackett of McIntyre can play with Miazga injured.

The 451 purple patch was ended by Joao's injury and we simply haven't recovered without him as a focal point.

So, is the answer that Bowen is a shit manager aside from 2 purple patches, so should be sacked?

Or is the answer that Bowen knows how to get results, but needs help building a squad who can handle these injuries better and time to work with them to make them more consistent?

After the disaster of last night it's very easy to knee jerk, but ultimately a new manager will inherit the same problems.

The main concern from last night is how easy it was for Wigan. When Bowen arrived, there was focus on doing the nasty things well and being a side teams don't want to face. That hasn't been on show so much recently, and if that trend continues I will move more towards the Bowen Out camp. I'm not there yet though.

[URZZZZ]

It’s 34 from 24 Snowers.

Thanks, so overall 1.42 ppg, safe over a full season

but that means 12 points from the 16 games outside the two 4-game purple patches
which is .67 per game 30/31 points in a full 46-game season

Of course, both purple patches were ended by injuries. The initial one playing 352 fell flat when Swift and Ejaria weren't available to create chances. Based upon their current form, its debatable whether returning to it would work, but it must be worth a try. Blackett of McIntyre can play with Miazga injured.

The 451 purple patch was ended by Joao's injury and we simply haven't recovered without him as a focal point.

So, is the answer that Bowen is a shit manager aside from 2 purple patches, so should be sacked?

Or is the answer that Bowen knows how to get results, but needs help building a squad who can handle these injuries better and time to work with them to make them more consistent?

After the disaster of last night it's very easy to knee jerk, but ultimately a new manager will inherit the same problems.

The main concern from last night is how easy it was for Wigan. When Bowen arrived, there was focus on doing the nasty things well and being a side teams don't want to face. That hasn't been on show so much recently, and if that trend continues I will move more towards the Bowen Out camp. I'm not there yet though.

If there's anything that can make Bowen's football worse, it's going back to that formation permanently

[WestYorksRoyal]

Totally agree. Going 2 up front is a totally illogical response to having no fit strikers suited to playing up there on their own.

[URZZZZ]

Totally agree. Going 2 up front is a totally illogical response to having no fit strikers suited to playing up there on their own.

2 strikers is fine, different ways about doing that

Doesn't mean we have to go back to 5-3-2 though, when you consider we don't have the players for that formation

[Snowball]

It’s 34 from 24 Snowers.

Thanks, so overall 1.42 ppg, safe over a full season

but that means 12 points from the 16 games outside the two 4-game purple patches
which is .67 per game 30/31 points in a full 46-game season

Of course, both purple patches were ended by injuries. The initial one playing 352 fell flat when Swift and Ejaria weren't available to create chances. Based upon their current form, its debatable whether returning to it would work, but it must be worth a try. Blackett of McIntyre can play with Miazga injured.

The 451 purple patch was ended by Joao's injury and we simply haven't recovered without him as a focal point.

So, is the answer that Bowen is a shit manager aside from 2 purple patches, so should be sacked?

Or is the answer that Bowen knows how to get results, but needs help building a squad who can handle these injuries better and time to work with them to make them more consistent?

I am not saying that!

[WestYorksRoyal]

Totally agree. Going 2 up front is a totally illogical response to having no fit strikers suited to playing up there on their own.

2 strikers is fine, different ways about doing that

Doesn't mean we have to go back to 5-3-2 though, when you consider we don't have the players for that formation

Even 442 raises as many questions as answers though. The Coppell/McDermott style relied upon 2 hard working CMs, with all creativity coming from out wide. I'd like to see McCleary back in the fold, but he's not a world beater any more. Who would go on the other flank? Ejaria, out of position? An untested Timbe? Meite, who you don't trust to put in a decent cross or make the right decision? A young Olise is possibly the best shout. And does that mean dropping Swift? A Pele-Rino combo in central midfield gives to wide men license to go forward, while Rino would also do his bit pushing forward and running in to attack crosses.; I'd be sceptical over Swift offering the same.

The other option is a narrow 442. That would rely upon Yiadom and Richards providing width, which leaves gaps to exploit. It's probably the best answer of the 2 options, but not a perfect solution.

352 answers these questions better. 3 CBs and a DM allows Yiadom and Richards more license to attack, while allowing our creative players to get on the ball and support our attacking players.

[URZZZZ]

Totally agree. Going 2 up front is a totally illogical response to having no fit strikers suited to playing up there on their own.

2 strikers is fine, different ways about doing that

Doesn't mean we have to go back to 5-3-2 though, when you consider we don't have the players for that formation

Even 442 raises as many questions as answers though. The Coppell/McDermott style relied upon 2 hard working CMs, with all creativity coming from out wide. I'd like to see McCleary back in the fold, but he's not a world beater any more. Who would go on the other flank? Ejaria, out of position? An untested Timbe? Meite, who you don't trust to put in a decent cross or make the right decision? A young Olise is possibly the best shout though. And does that mean dropping Swift? A Pele-Rino combo in central midfield gives to wide men license to go forward, while Rino would also do his bit pushing forward and running in to attack crosses.; I'd be sceptical over Swift offering the same.

The other option is a narrow 442. That would rely upon Yiadom and Richards providing width, which leaves gaps to exploit. It's probably the best answer of the 2 options, but not a perfect solution.

352 answers these questions better. 3 CBs and a DM allows Yiadom and Richards more license to attack, while allowing our creative players to get on the ball and support our attacking players.

How many goals/assists would Yiadom and Richards get over a season do you think? Enough to satisfy the demands of our only wide players? How many successful teams now play 5 at the back? That isn't a dig, but off the top of my head, I can only think of Sheffield United but that's such a unique formation tailored perfectly to their needs

The last five times we have tried 5-3-2, it didn't go well
Birmingham (H) - abandoned at half time
Barnsley (A) - abandoned after about 65 minutes
Cardiff (A) - we barely had a shot all game
Hull (H) - abandoned at half time
Cardiff (A) - abandoned at half time

The whole squad is a mess and imbalanced. We have so many players of a similar ilk (Loader, Aluko, Boye, Olise, Ejaria etc). You ask twenty people what those five best positions are and you'll get twenty different answers

I think we've also learnt Pele can't play in a two man midfield, and needs to be either the pivot of the team or benched. I thought he could work in a two man midfield but he's been really poor there whenever he's been tried

Lots of constraints, very few solutions

[RoyalBlue]

It’s 34 from 24 Snowers.

Thanks, so overall 1.42 ppg, safe over a full season

but that means 12 points from the 16 games outside the two 4-game purple patches
which is .67 per game 30/31 points in a full 46-game season

Of course, both purple patches were ended by injuries. The initial one playing 352 fell flat when Swift and Ejaria weren't available to create chances. Based upon their current form, its debatable whether returning to it would work, but it must be worth a try. Blackett of McIntyre can play with Miazga injured.

The 451 purple patch was ended by Joao's injury and we simply haven't recovered without him as a focal point.

So, is the answer that Bowen is a shit manager aside from 2 purple patches, so should be sacked?

Or is the answer that Bowen knows how to get results, but needs help building a squad who can handle these injuries better and time to work with them to make them more consistent?

After the disaster of last night it's very easy to knee jerk, but ultimately a new manager will inherit the same problems.

The main concern from last night is how easy it was for Wigan. When Bowen arrived, there was focus on doing the nasty things well and being a side teams don't want to face. That hasn't been on show so much recently, and if that trend continues I will move more towards the Bowen Out camp. I'm not there yet though.

Pretty much all of the justifications for keeping Bowen could be used to argue it was wrong to sack Gomes so quickly. He also only had the benefit of a full squad to start working with a couple of weeks before he got the sack. He kept us up last season. Given that Bowen won't even acknowledge that we are already potentially in a relegation battle and doesn't regard the Barnsley game, or any others currently, as a 'must win', I am beginning to doubt that he will keep us up.

[Snowball]

Many argue for "New Manager Bounce" which may be a false dawn (I don't)
and after that we had a "surprise" 4 consecutive wins.

I get there might be reasons/excuses but the differences between the two purple patches
and the awful times between are MASSIVE

Purple Patch 1, New Manager Bounce

W Reading 1-0 Preston
D QPR 2-2 Reading
W Reading 3-0 Luton
W Reading 2-1 Millwall

P4 W3 D1 L0 8-3 2.5 ppg (“Top Two”)

Bad Patch

L Brentford 1-0 Reading
L Reading 0-1 Leeds
W Wigan 1-3 Reading (outplayed until shock late hat-trick)
L Reading 2-3 Birmingham (TERRIBLE)
D Barnsley 1-1 Reading (Outplayed for most of the game)
D Stoke 0-0 Reading (DIRE, no shots on target)

P6 W1 D2 L3 6-7 0.83 ppg (38 Point Season)


Purple Patch 2

W Reading 3-0 Derby
W Reading 1-0 QPR
W Preston 0-2 Reading
W Fulham 1-2 Reading

P4 W4 D0 L0 8-1 3.0 ppg

===========================

And Now a "Relegation Run"

D Reading 1-1 Forest
L Millwall 2-0 Reading (Utterly Outplayed)
D Forest 1-1 Reading
D Reading 1-1 Cardiff
L Reading 0-1 Bristol
D Reading 1-1 Hull
L Reading 1-2 WBA
W Wednesday 0-3 Reading
L Leeds 1-0 Reading
L Reading 0-3 Wigan

P10 W1 D4 L5 8-13 0.7 ppg (32 Point Season)

The two bad runs combined are:

P16 W2 D6 L8 14-20 0.75 ppg (34/35 Point Season)

[WestYorksRoyal]

2 strikers is fine, different ways about doing that

Doesn't mean we have to go back to 5-3-2 though, when you consider we don't have the players for that formation

Even 442 raises as many questions as answers though. The Coppell/McDermott style relied upon 2 hard working CMs, with all creativity coming from out wide. I'd like to see McCleary back in the fold, but he's not a world beater any more. Who would go on the other flank? Ejaria, out of position? An untested Timbe? Meite, who you don't trust to put in a decent cross or make the right decision? A young Olise is possibly the best shout though. And does that mean dropping Swift? A Pele-Rino combo in central midfield gives to wide men license to go forward, while Rino would also do his bit pushing forward and running in to attack crosses.; I'd be sceptical over Swift offering the same.

The other option is a narrow 442. That would rely upon Yiadom and Richards providing width, which leaves gaps to exploit. It's probably the best answer of the 2 options, but not a perfect solution.

352 answers these questions better. 3 CBs and a DM allows Yiadom and Richards more license to attack, while allowing our creative players to get on the ball and support our attacking players.

How many goals/assists would Yiadom and Richards get over a season do you think? Enough to satisfy the demands of our only wide players? How many successful teams now play 5 at the back? That isn't a dig, but off the top of my head, I can only think of Sheffield United but that's such a unique formation tailored perfectly to their needs

The last five times we have tried 5-3-2, it didn't go well
Birmingham (H) - abandoned at half time
Barnsley (A) - abandoned after about 65 minutes
Cardiff (A) - we barely had a shot all game
Hull (H) - abandoned at half time
Cardiff (A) - abandoned at half time

The whole squad is a mess and imbalanced. We have so many players of a similar ilk (Loader, Aluko, Boye, Olise, Ejaria etc). You ask twenty people what those five best positions are and you'll get twenty different answers

I think we've also learnt Pele can't play in a two man midfield, and needs to be either the pivot of the team or benched. I thought he could work in a two man midfield but he's been really poor there whenever he's been tried

Lots of constraints, very few solutions

I blame the modern game. Academies are full of technical players who can play across the front line or drop deep to be a technical midfielder who can control the game. Coaches encourage it. This is all very well if you're Iniesta, Bernardo Silva, Eden Hazard or even possibly Adam Lallana or Gylfi Sigurdsson, but ultimately it produces a lot of mediocre players who aren't particularly good at anything. Every player should know what their best position is. If you have to sometimes adapt and play out of position for the team then fine, but I literally couldn't tell you what position to play Boye, Loader or Aluko nor how to get the best out of them.

[Hound]

Overall, without looking, I think we were 35 points from 22 before Leeds, now 35 from 24 = 1.45 ppg

Take out those two purple patches and the other games are 13 points from 16 games

Of COURSE what matters is the sum of games and I wouldn’t be mentioning this if the wins were sprinkled throughout the 24 games, but that is now two quite-long poor runs after two 4-game good patches

We need a shock win SOON. If the rest of the season pans out like RFC excluding a purple patch we WILL go down

I will be delighted if we avoid defeat against Barnsley. A defeat followed by a 0-4 against Sheffield in the cup, could send us into a death spiral

It’s 34 from 24 Snowers.

Thanks, so overall 1.42 ppg, safe over a full season

but that means 12 points from the 16 games outside the two 4-game purple patches
which is .67 per game 30/31 points in a full 46-game season

Yep, take out all of Bowen’s wins and his Ppg is very poor...

[Snowball]

It’s 34 from 24 Snowers.

Thanks, so overall 1.42 ppg, safe over a full season

but that means 12 points from the 16 games outside the two 4-game purple patches
which is .67 per game 30/31 points in a full 46-game season

Yep, take out all of Bowen’s wins and his Ppg is very poor...

Not my point Hound and I've already said:
"If his wins were scattered around we wouldn't be talking about this"

It's akin to a striker getting a hat-trick and then drawing a blank
for eighteen games before getting a second hat-trick. He's
"on target for 12-13 goals a season"... Hmmm.

What's striking for me is that under Bowen we had those two purple patches
but have otherwise, not been mere average or mid-table but down there
form-wise with Barnsley and Luton (and until 7 games ago, Wigan)

It's the huge differences in form I'm on about

PP1 - Oct 19th - Nov 9th (21 Days)
PP2 - Dec 14 - Dec 29th (15 Days)

36 Days of his 149 Day reign, 22 Points gained

in all the rest of his tenure, 12 points

[Zip]

[quote="RoyalBlue"][quote="WestYorksRoyal"][quote="Snowball"]

Thanks, so overall 1.42 ppg, safe over a full season

but that means 12 points from the 16 games outside the two 4-game purple patches
which is .67 per game 30/31 points in a full 46-game season[/quote]
Of course, both purple patches were ended by injuries. The initial one playing 352 fell flat when Swift and Ejaria weren't available to create chances. Based upon their current form, its debatable whether returning to it would work, but it must be worth a try. Blackett of McIntyre can play with Miazga injured.

The 451 purple patch was ended by Joao's injury and we simply haven't recovered without him as a focal point.

So, is the answer that Bowen is a shit manager aside from 2 purple patches, so should be sacked?

Or is the answer that Bowen knows how to get results, but needs help building a squad who can handle these injuries better and time to work with them to make them more consistent?

After the disaster of last night it's very easy to knee jerk, but ultimately a new manager will inherit the same problems.

The main concern from last night is how easy it was for Wigan. When Bowen arrived, there was focus on doing the nasty things well and being a side teams don't want to face. That hasn't been on show so much recently, and if that trend continues I will move more towards the Bowen Out camp. I'm not there yet though.[/quote]

Pretty much all of the justifications for keeping Bowen could be used to argue it was wrong to sack Gomes so quickly. He also only had the benefit of a full squad to start working with a couple of weeks before he got the sack. He kept us up last season. Given that Bowen won't even acknowledge that we are already potentially in a relegation battle and doesn't regard the Barnsley game, or any others currently, as a 'must win', I am beginning to doubt that he will keep us up.[/quote]

I think he will keep us up but agreed about Gomes.

[WestYorksRoyal]

Of course, both purple patches were ended by injuries. The initial one playing 352 fell flat when Swift and Ejaria weren't available to create chances. Based upon their current form, its debatable whether returning to it would work, but it must be worth a try. Blackett of McIntyre can play with Miazga injured.

The 451 purple patch was ended by Joao's injury and we simply haven't recovered without him as a focal point.

So, is the answer that Bowen is a shit manager aside from 2 purple patches, so should be sacked?

Or is the answer that Bowen knows how to get results, but needs help building a squad who can handle these injuries better and time to work with them to make them more consistent?

After the disaster of last night it's very easy to knee jerk, but ultimately a new manager will inherit the same problems.

The main concern from last night is how easy it was for Wigan. When Bowen arrived, there was focus on doing the nasty things well and being a side teams don't want to face. That hasn't been on show so much recently, and if that trend continues I will move more towards the Bowen Out camp. I'm not there yet though.

Pretty much all of the justifications for keeping Bowen could be used to argue it was wrong to sack Gomes so quickly. He also only had the benefit of a full squad to start working with a couple of weeks before he got the sack. He kept us up last season. Given that Bowen won't even acknowledge that we are already potentially in a relegation battle and doesn't regard the Barnsley game, or any others currently, as a 'must win', I am beginning to doubt that he will keep us up.

I think he will keep us up but agreed about Gomes.

You could even claim Clement was hard done by. His final run of games had seen improved performances, and it was the 6 weeks or so after his sacking that really put us in the shit.

Of all the managers sacked in the past 5 years, I'd say only Stam was absolutely deserving of it, and possibly Clarke for Fulham-gate alone.