BFS - Bristol City (H)

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URZZZZ
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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by URZZZZ » 02 Dec 2020 14:41

Sanguine
muirinho
Sanguine 'Be our manager. We own you, until we decide that you're not wanted.'


Slight correction "Be our manager. We own you and will pay you for <insert length of contract>. If we decide we don't want to use you, we will still pay you, but we no longer own you"

I don't know why you find this so strange. Yes, it's not like managing a shop, or a factory, or a call-centre. That's because it's not a shop, a factory, or a call-centre.


I don't agree with the concept of employer ownership of employee. Judge an employee on the work that they do. My view is that a football manager's contract doesn't buy a lack of interest or desire in other roles. It's as simple as that. Everyone is of course free to disagree. I'll continue to find the treatment of Clarke a little silly.


Even if one does that, his record was still relatively underwhelming here

What disappointed me was that we gave Clarke a relatively high budget to bring in his own squad. He brought in Al Habsi, Bond, Ferdinand, McShane, Taylor, Quinn, Piazon, John, Hurtado, Vydra, Sa. That's an entire XI of players. Yet at the first major sign of trouble, he looks elsewhere. All this, especially considering Fulham were at best a sideways move at the time, and were considered quite a shambles

When combining his mediocre record at best to that, he was doomed for failure, whichever way you try and paint it
Last edited by URZZZZ on 02 Dec 2020 14:44, edited 1 time in total.

Sanguine
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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by Sanguine » 02 Dec 2020 14:42

URZZZZ
Sanguine
muirinho
Slight correction "Be our manager. We own you and will pay you for <insert length of contract>. If we decide we don't want to use you, we will still pay you, but we no longer own you"

I don't know why you find this so strange. Yes, it's not like managing a shop, or a factory, or a call-centre. That's because it's not a shop, a factory, or a call-centre.


I don't agree with the concept of employer ownership of employee. Judge an employee on the work that they do. My view is that a football manager's contract doesn't buy a lack of interest or desire in other roles. It's as simple as that. Everyone is of course free to disagree. I'll continue to find the treatment of Clarke a little silly.


Even if one does that, his record was still relatively underwhelming here

What disappointed me was that we gave Clarke a relatively high budget to bring in his own squad. He brought in Al Habsi, Bond, Ferdinand, McShane, Taylor, Quinn, Piazon, John, Hurtado, Vydra, Sa. That's an entire XI of players. Yet at the first major sign of trouble, he looks elsewhere. All this, especially considering Fulham were at best a sideways move at the time, and were considered quite a shambles at the time

When combining his mediocre record at best to that, he was doomed for failure, whichever way you try and paint it


So we're in agreement then. I'm only discussing the Fulham situation here. We were absolutely right to sack Clarke when we did. But for me his work at the club and his results are the only things that are relevant to that decision.

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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by URZZZZ » 02 Dec 2020 14:48

Sanguine
URZZZZ
Sanguine
I don't agree with the concept of employer ownership of employee. Judge an employee on the work that they do. My view is that a football manager's contract doesn't buy a lack of interest or desire in other roles. It's as simple as that. Everyone is of course free to disagree. I'll continue to find the treatment of Clarke a little silly.


Even if one does that, his record was still relatively underwhelming here

What disappointed me was that we gave Clarke a relatively high budget to bring in his own squad. He brought in Al Habsi, Bond, Ferdinand, McShane, Taylor, Quinn, Piazon, John, Hurtado, Vydra, Sa. That's an entire XI of players. Yet at the first major sign of trouble, he looks elsewhere. All this, especially considering Fulham were at best a sideways move at the time, and were considered quite a shambles at the time

When combining his mediocre record at best to that, he was doomed for failure, whichever way you try and paint it


So we're in agreement then. I'm only discussing the Fulham situation here. We were absolutely right to sack Clarke when we did. But for me his work at the club and his results are the only things that are relevant to that decision.


Do agree with you to an extent, in the sense that going off to speak to Fulham doesn't mean he wasn't putting in 100%

Could be wrong here, but wasn't that exactly what Sidwell did when he was here, i.e. went to speak to Chelsea halfway through the season after rejecting a new contract here

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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by Sanguine » 02 Dec 2020 14:57

URZZZZ
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URZZZZ
Even if one does that, his record was still relatively underwhelming here

What disappointed me was that we gave Clarke a relatively high budget to bring in his own squad. He brought in Al Habsi, Bond, Ferdinand, McShane, Taylor, Quinn, Piazon, John, Hurtado, Vydra, Sa. That's an entire XI of players. Yet at the first major sign of trouble, he looks elsewhere. All this, especially considering Fulham were at best a sideways move at the time, and were considered quite a shambles at the time

When combining his mediocre record at best to that, he was doomed for failure, whichever way you try and paint it


So we're in agreement then. I'm only discussing the Fulham situation here. We were absolutely right to sack Clarke when we did. But for me his work at the club and his results are the only things that are relevant to that decision.


Do agree with you to an extent, in the sense that going off to speak to Fulham doesn't mean he wasn't putting in 100%

Could be wrong here, but wasn't that exactly what Sidwell did when he was here, i.e. went to speak to Chelsea halfway through the season after rejecting a new contract here


Indeed - and if memory serves me correctly he was subsequently excellent for us in the few months before he left the club.

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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by Nameless » 02 Dec 2020 15:07

Sanguine
URZZZZ
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So we're in agreement then. I'm only discussing the Fulham situation here. We were absolutely right to sack Clarke when we did. But for me his work at the club and his results are the only things that are relevant to that decision.


Do agree with you to an extent, in the sense that going off to speak to Fulham doesn't mean he wasn't putting in 100%

Could be wrong here, but wasn't that exactly what Sidwell did when he was here, i.e. went to speak to Chelsea halfway through the season after rejecting a new contract here


Indeed - and if memory serves me correctly he was subsequently excellent for us in the few months before he left the club.


So Sidwell wasn’t attempting to break a contract, simply looking for the next move once his contract expired.
Clark was looking to break a contract.
Can you not see a difference ?


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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by Sanguine » 02 Dec 2020 15:15

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URZZZZ
Do agree with you to an extent, in the sense that going off to speak to Fulham doesn't mean he wasn't putting in 100%

Could be wrong here, but wasn't that exactly what Sidwell did when he was here, i.e. went to speak to Chelsea halfway through the season after rejecting a new contract here


Indeed - and if memory serves me correctly he was subsequently excellent for us in the few months before he left the club.


So Sidwell wasn’t attempting to break a contract, simply looking for the next move once his contract expired.
Clark was looking to break a contract.
Can you not see a difference ?


Nope. Because Sidwell demonstrated that it is possible to want to play for someone else, whilst still giving 100% to his current role. Keep smashing this is you want, but it should be clear to you by now, because I've stated it pretty plainly, that I think ownership of an employee is outdated and, in the context of the thoughts on Clarke posted by a few on here, a little infantile. For the final time, in my view, you don't buy a lack of aspiration with a contract.

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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by Nameless » 02 Dec 2020 15:19

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Indeed - and if memory serves me correctly he was subsequently excellent for us in the few months before he left the club.


So Sidwell wasn’t attempting to break a contract, simply looking for the next move once his contract expired.
Clark was looking to break a contract.
Can you not see a difference ?


Nope. Because Sidwell demonstrated that it is possible to want to play for someone else, whilst still giving 100% to his current role. Keep smashing this is you want, but it should be clear to you by now, because I've stated it pretty plainly, that I think ownership of an employee is outdated and, in the context of the thoughts on Clarke posted by a few on here, a little infantile. For the final time, in my view, you don't buy a lack of aspiration with a contract.


Would be really interesting to hear how you think football wouldn’t operate if no one had a contract which they had to honour.
You seem to simply ignore realities that make your position untenable.
Sidwell continued to play for us because he wasn’t trying to leave, He had a new contract lined up to start when the one he was committed to ended.
That is very different from a player being allowed to fulfil their ‘aspirations’ by just walking out of a club to go and play for someone else.

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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by Sanguine » 02 Dec 2020 15:22

Nameless
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Nameless
So Sidwell wasn’t attempting to break a contract, simply looking for the next move once his contract expired.
Clark was looking to break a contract.
Can you not see a difference ?


Nope. Because Sidwell demonstrated that it is possible to want to play for someone else, whilst still giving 100% to his current role. Keep smashing this is you want, but it should be clear to you by now, because I've stated it pretty plainly, that I think ownership of an employee is outdated and, in the context of the thoughts on Clarke posted by a few on here, a little infantile. For the final time, in my view, you don't buy a lack of aspiration with a contract.


Would be really interesting to hear how you think football wouldn’t operate if no one had a contract which they had to honour.
You seem to simply ignore realities that make your position untenable.
Sidwell continued to play for us because he wasn’t trying to leave, He had a new contract lined up to start when the one he was committed to ended.
That is very different from a player being allowed to fulfil their ‘aspirations’ by just walking out of a club to go and play for someone else.


I'm not going to have a circular argument with you. We covered this already. When a player wants to leave, he leaves. That's been a reality in football for a generation. Their agent does the work.

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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by Nameless » 02 Dec 2020 15:33

Sanguine
Nameless
Sanguine
Nope. Because Sidwell demonstrated that it is possible to want to play for someone else, whilst still giving 100% to his current role. Keep smashing this is you want, but it should be clear to you by now, because I've stated it pretty plainly, that I think ownership of an employee is outdated and, in the context of the thoughts on Clarke posted by a few on here, a little infantile. For the final time, in my view, you don't buy a lack of aspiration with a contract.


Would be really interesting to hear how you think football wouldn’t operate if no one had a contract which they had to honour.
You seem to simply ignore realities that make your position untenable.
Sidwell continued to play for us because he wasn’t trying to leave, He had a new contract lined up to start when the one he was committed to ended.
That is very different from a player being allowed to fulfil their ‘aspirations’ by just walking out of a club to go and play for someone else.


I'm not going to have a circular argument with you. We covered this already. When a player wants to leave, he leaves. That's been a reality in football for a generation. Their agent does the work.


You have an interesting approach, propose a wildly unorthodox and probably unworkable idea and then refuse to address any discussion points.....


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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by Sanguine » 02 Dec 2020 15:34

Nameless
Sanguine
Nameless
Would be really interesting to hear how you think football wouldn’t operate if no one had a contract which they had to honour.
You seem to simply ignore realities that make your position untenable.
Sidwell continued to play for us because he wasn’t trying to leave, He had a new contract lined up to start when the one he was committed to ended.
That is very different from a player being allowed to fulfil their ‘aspirations’ by just walking out of a club to go and play for someone else.


I'm not going to have a circular argument with you. We covered this already. When a player wants to leave, he leaves. That's been a reality in football for a generation. Their agent does the work.


You have an interesting approach, propose a wildly unorthodox and probably unworkable idea and then refuse to address any discussion points.....


Yeah, we're probably at the end if I've answered every single question of yours and then you tell me I'm refusing to address the discussion.

Nothing I'm proposing is unorthodox. It all happens already.

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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by Snowflake Royal » 02 Dec 2020 17:31

If you can't commit to managing a club for at least a year before you're actively looking at sideways steps when things are going well, you've got no business managing the club.

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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by Lower West » 02 Dec 2020 18:11

Snowflake Royal If you can't commit to managing a club for at least a year before you're actively looking at sideways steps when things are going well, you've got no business managing the club.


To have any real impact. Time is the key. Unfortunately football is now results driven. There's little time to assemble and develop a squad. All our good years came with the continuity of both the board and management structure. We've wasted so much money on players in an attempt to roll the dice.

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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by Nameless » 02 Dec 2020 18:14

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I'm not going to have a circular argument with you. We covered this already. When a player wants to leave, he leaves. That's been a reality in football for a generation. Their agent does the work.


You have an interesting approach, propose a wildly unorthodox and probably unworkable idea and then refuse to address any discussion points.....


Yeah, we're probably at the end if I've answered every single question of yours and then you tell me I'm refusing to address the discussion.

Nothing I'm proposing is unorthodox. It all happens already.


Not sure you’ve even attempted to explain how a system where there was no contractual link between clubs, managers and players might operate.
If players and managers could simply quit clubs on a whim it would be chaos. If a club could get rid of a manager with no compensation then an already dodgy profession would become untenable.
Maybe you envisage something different, but given you’ve made no attempt to do more than express a vague philosophical thought it’s hard to know.


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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by Sanguine » 03 Dec 2020 09:03

Nameless
Not sure you’ve even attempted to explain how a system where there was no contractual link between clubs, managers and players might operate.
If players and managers could simply quit clubs on a whim it would be chaos. If a club could get rid of a manager with no compensation then an already dodgy profession would become untenable.


Why would I explain such a system when I've not suggested one? I've simply said that the situation you describe, where players and managers quit clubs as they like, effectively already exists.

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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by muirinho » 04 Dec 2020 22:24

Sanguine
Nameless
Not sure you’ve even attempted to explain how a system where there was no contractual link between clubs, managers and players might operate.
If players and managers could simply quit clubs on a whim it would be chaos. If a club could get rid of a manager with no compensation then an already dodgy profession would become untenable.


Why would I explain such a system when I've not suggested one? I've simply said that the situation you describe, where players and managers quit clubs as they like, effectively already exists.


Except in the case of players, it doesn't. Players cannot walk out at any time, they can only transfer in a window. And that was brought in precisely to stop them quitting clubs as they like. And, while they are mid-contract, unless they have a release clause, the owning club can stop them moving on. So, just like the unspoken rules that exist for managers, they are bound to the club for the length of the contract, save any clauses they have got written into that contract. And equally, if the club doesn't want to play them, they get paid anyway.

I can see an argument for transfer windows for managers, to be honest. Because atm, as soon as a manger indicates he's not averse to looking elsewhere, then the owners are going to be thinking about their next move, because they have no idea when he'd actually leave - it could be 5 minutes before a game.

If you have the freedom to move any time you like, your employer also has the freedom to sack you and, crucially, stop paying you, whenever they like. That is how it works in the real world. Now, go sell that to footballers that they are employed purely on a game to game basis. I'm sure' they'd be delighted.

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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by Franchise FC » 05 Dec 2020 15:39

Appears that Langford has remembered how to give a penalty, albeit looked a little soft and a red card to go with it

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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by CountryRoyal » 05 Dec 2020 18:17

Franchise FC Appears that Langford has remembered how to give a penalty, albeit looked a little soft and a red card to go with it


He’s shocking. Never a straight red and barely a penalty. Absolute wet wipe pcunt, needs euthanising.

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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by Singing Defective » 05 Dec 2020 18:23

CountryRoyal
Franchise FC Appears that Langford has remembered how to give a penalty, albeit looked a little soft and a red card to go with it


He’s shocking. Never a straight red and barely a penalty. Absolute wet wipe pcunt, needs euthanising.


Plus one. I thought I was going to have to sedate my son after the Wednesday x 2 clusteroxford

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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by CountryRoyal » 05 Dec 2020 21:10

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Franchise FC Appears that Langford has remembered how to give a penalty, albeit looked a little soft and a red card to go with it


He’s shocking. Never a straight red and barely a penalty. Absolute wet wipe pcunt, needs euthanising.


Also missed a clear handball for Brentford.

That sounds familiar.

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Re: BFS - Bristol City (H)

by Millsy » 07 Dec 2020 09:55

Someone tell me there is a review/revalidation/appraisal process for refs please and they can be sent down to lower leagues or retrained...

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