MATCHWATCH : Luton Town (a)

[South Coast Royal]

Hey everybody. Just here to stir up shit in case it's dying down.

I couldn't care less about the FA Cup and think it would have been naive and, quite frankly, idiotic to risk any first team stars in that match. I'm glad he selected that team. Was important to give them minutes and matchday experience.

Yes absolutely and players should stay in bed all week and not risk injury through training or doing anything but rest.
Cotton wool needs to be supplied for all first team squad players.

What would cotton wool do? Is it for nose bleeds?

To be wrapped up in of course -presumably you are aware of the term?

[Nameless]

Hey everybody. Just here to stir up shit in case it's dying down.

I couldn't care less about the FA Cup and think it would have been naive and, quite frankly, idiotic to risk any first team stars in that match. I'm glad he selected that team. Was important to give them minutes and matchday experience.

Yes absolutely and players should stay in bed all week and not risk injury through training or doing anything but rest.
Cotton wool needs to be supplied for all first team squad players.

You seem to have got things a bit out of proportion !
I’m concerned you want to go back to the good old days when player welfare was non existent. Players were pushed back on the pitch injured, pumped full of pain killers and steroids to keep them playing with no regard to the fact that it would shorten careers and leave some crippled.
Allowing a few players a short rest in a congested season seems part prudent management and part decency. While some may Ben looking forward to their extended summer break (which might be 3 or 4 weeks if they are lucky) players have been effectively working 7 days a week for several months now.
Not sure why you keep mentioning training, not heard any suggestion that we are not expecting players to train, although training will be more technical,than fitness and certainly not at match intensity.

[morganb]

It is a shame that now we've been knocked out of the Cup the U23 players will not get the first team experience they would have got if we'd qualified for the next round. We were dominant in the second half and it is possible that with a little more first team experience in the team we could have won, either by not conceding or by scoring, but equally those first teamers could have been injured or played badly anyhow. Ifs, buts and maybes.

[South Coast Royal]

Hey everybody. Just here to stir up shit in case it's dying down.

I couldn't care less about the FA Cup and think it would have been naive and, quite frankly, idiotic to risk any first team stars in that match. I'm glad he selected that team. Was important to give them minutes and matchday experience.

Yes absolutely and players should stay in bed all week and not risk injury through training or doing anything but rest.
Cotton wool needs to be supplied for all first team squad players.

You seem to have got things a bit out of proportion !
I’m concerned you want to go back to the good old days when player welfare was non existent. Players were pushed back on the pitch injured, pumped full of pain killers and steroids to keep them playing with no regard to the fact that it would shorten careers and leave some crippled.
Allowing a few players a short rest in a congested season seems part prudent management and part decency. While some may Ben looking forward to their extended summer break (which might be 3 or 4 weeks if they are lucky) players have been effectively working 7 days a week for several months now.
Not sure why you keep mentioning training, not heard any suggestion that we are not expecting players to train, although training will be more technical,than fitness and certainly not at match intensity.

I think you are the one out of touch.
The modern trend is for match conditions to be part of training-full-on tackling and mirroring match day.

Part of what I posted was tongue-in-cheek but football really is a bit namby-pamby and players do appear to have rather cossetted existences and btw they never do a 7-day week and they still have pain-killers.
Even in the modern game players will tell you that most of the time they are carrying some sort of injury but still play.

[Snowflake Royal]

Yep bored of this argument now (though no doubts that won't stop Ian debating it for the rest of the week ), so this is the last I'll say on it

I can understand people disagreeing and thinking that we should put more emphasis on the Cup. In other seasons and circumstances I'd also expect us to go stronger. However considering the position we are in the league, and the last 6 weeks of injuries, I think people should at least understand why Pauno played the team he did and it certainly wasnt 'terrible management', which is what i had the issue with

understandable management if not necessarily one you agree with. And as been mentioned, we aren't privy to the players fitness levels, covid test results etc. I've no doubts Pauno and co made their decisions based on the levels of the players and the league fixtures to come

Anyway, suppose we'll see how it works over the rest of the season. We've basically had a mid winter break, it should benefit the rest of the league campaign.

I only replied last time because YOU were still banging on about no one having made any suggestions for who should have played instead, despite it already having been covered three times.

And then Nameless came along to get the last word with his bone again.

[Stranded]

We have a huge game coming up on Saturday. Beat Brentford and we are very much in the mix for automatic promotion. Lose and we can start to focus on making the play offs. Time to move on from the Cup.

Hopefully Brentford will be knackered having had that big Carabo Cup game as well-advantage RFC.

Them playing midweek may help us. Of course, Brentford only had 2 players that played v Spurs and on Saturday - so most of their players will have a had a weeks rest between their bigger games.

[Hound]

Yes absolutely and players should stay in bed all week and not risk injury through training or doing anything but rest.
Cotton wool needs to be supplied for all first team squad players.

You seem to have got things a bit out of proportion !
I’m concerned you want to go back to the good old days when player welfare was non existent. Players were pushed back on the pitch injured, pumped full of pain killers and steroids to keep them playing with no regard to the fact that it would shorten careers and leave some crippled.
Allowing a few players a short rest in a congested season seems part prudent management and part decency. While some may Ben looking forward to their extended summer break (which might be 3 or 4 weeks if they are lucky) players have been effectively working 7 days a week for several months now.
Not sure why you keep mentioning training, not heard any suggestion that we are not expecting players to train, although training will be more technical,than fitness and certainly not at match intensity.

I think you are the one out of touch.
The modern trend is for match conditions to be part of training-full-on tackling and mirroring match day.

Part of what I posted was tongue-in-cheek but football really is a bit namby-pamby and players do appear to have rather cossetted existences and btw they never do a 7-day week and they still have pain-killers.
Even in the modern game players will tell you that most of the time they are carrying some sort of injury but still play.

yes, but that is up to the coaching team. Certainly pre-season, and when its one game a week and everyone is fit

When you've been playing the same 12-14 players two games a week for a month and they are in need of a rest, I suspect they'll take a step back, keep it light and just tick over. Not much to be gained from mirroring match conditions when they are doing it twice a week anyway

[NewCorkSeth]

Yes absolutely and players should stay in bed all week and not risk injury through training or doing anything but rest.
Cotton wool needs to be supplied for all first team squad players.

What would cotton wool do? Is it for nose bleeds?

To be wrapped up in of course -presumably you are aware of the term?

Yes I am indeed. Just a bit flabbergasted by how extreme your argument was. Not risking players in a match that means very little to our overall season is not some slippery slope that leads to fear over training injuries. Its intelligent man management for a club in our position while also providing a great chance for fringe players to impress and get match day experience.

I know this is further than others would go but I'm glad we lost. We need everything focused on the league. Going up at the first try would be enormous in the current economic circumstances.

[South Coast Royal]

What would cotton wool do? Is it for nose bleeds?

To be wrapped up in of course -presumably you are aware of the term?

Yes I am indeed. Just a bit flabbergasted by how extreme your argument was. Not risking players in a match that means very little to our overall season is not some slippery slope that leads to fear over training injuries. Its intelligent man management for a club in our position while also providing a great chance for fringe players to impress and get match day experience.

I know this is further than others would go but I'm glad we lost. We need everything focused on the league. Going up at the first try would be enormous in the current economic circumstances.

Because of that purple patch many fans are talking up our chances-even Zip spoke of threatening the automatics if we beat Brentford next Saturday and I get the impression that many think that play-offs are a shoe-in, completely disregarding the likes of Stoke, 'Boro , Bristol City etc.

Whilst I think we have a fair chance I am more convinced by developing a winning habit rather than the fixation of players needing a rest during a maximum 49 game season.
Play the same team week-in, week -out and only change because of lack of form or injury.
I can think of only Morro, Laurent, Rino and the keeper who may have played in all 23 games so far so players get rest -how much rest do they need?

So that is not the 2 games per week that is often said about The Championship is is a case of 23 games over a 17 week period therefore in most cases players will have played a bit more than 90 minutes per week averaged over the team, taking into account substitutions.
Hasn't there been an International break?

Tell people they are tired and that they need a rest and they will feel tired.
Win games every week with a settled side and nobody is tired and if our first team had beaten Luton they would have gone into the Brentford game unbeaten in 2020 and on a high rather than "are you playing this week, I'm not sure, I wonder what the team will be?"

It is what it is and I look forward to our fully refreshed team being quick out of the blocks on Saturday and steam-rolling Brentford who will maybe still be getting over that extra game v Spurs.

Finally (and I promise not to post anymore on this topic) I remember my brother saying how sluggish we always are after an International break-he and I share the view that players just want to play.

[NewCorkSeth]

To be wrapped up in of course -presumably you are aware of the term?

Yes I am indeed. Just a bit flabbergasted by how extreme your argument was. Not risking players in a match that means very little to our overall season is not some slippery slope that leads to fear over training injuries. Its intelligent man management for a club in our position while also providing a great chance for fringe players to impress and get match day experience.

I know this is further than others would go but I'm glad we lost. We need everything focused on the league. Going up at the first try would be enormous in the current economic circumstances.

Because of that purple patch many fans are talking up our chances-even Zip spoke of threatening the automatics if we beat Brentford next Saturday and I get the impression that many think that play-offs are a shoe-in, completely disregarding the likes of Stoke, 'Boro , Bristol City etc.

Whilst I think we have a fair chance I am more convinced by developing a winning habit rather than the fixation of players needing a rest during a maximum 49 game season.
Play the same team week-in, week -out and only change because of lack of form or injury.
I can think of only Morro, Laurent, Rino and the keeper who may have played in all 23 games so far so players get rest -how much rest do they need?

So that is not the 2 games per week that is often said about The Championship is is a case of 23 games over a 17 week period therefore in most cases players will have played a bit more than 90 minutes per week averaged over the team, taking into account substitutions.
Hasn't there been an International break?

Tell people they are tired and that they need a rest and they will feel tired.
Win games every week with a settled side and nobody is tired and if our first team had beaten Luton they would have gone into the Brentford game unbeaten in 2020 and on a high rather than "are you playing this week, I'm not sure, I wonder what the team will be?"

It is what it is and I look forward to our fully refreshed team being quick out of the blocks on Saturday and steam-rolling Brentford who will maybe still be getting over that extra game v Spurs.

Finally (and I promise not to post anymore on this topic) I remember my brother saying how sluggish we always are after an International break-he and I share the view that players just want to play.

I think there is a lot missed in just how fit modern players are. These guys are approaching peak human conditioning. The game is a lot more taxing now than it used to be. Fitness levels are demonstrably higher than they were even 10 years ago.

I dont understand the argument about winning games breeds winning games. I mean, I agree with that, but this wasn't the same team? None of the main lads will be affected by a reserve team losing a game they were barely involved in. You think Joao and Rafael will be thinking "christ we did bad in that cup game, that's really going to hurt our form". Nah m8. Reckon it means nothing to them and likely they are glad for the extra day off and eyeing the table thinking "this could be my chance to play in the Premier League".

[URZZZZ]

Yes I am indeed. Just a bit flabbergasted by how extreme your argument was. Not risking players in a match that means very little to our overall season is not some slippery slope that leads to fear over training injuries. Its intelligent man management for a club in our position while also providing a great chance for fringe players to impress and get match day experience.

I know this is further than others would go but I'm glad we lost. We need everything focused on the league. Going up at the first try would be enormous in the current economic circumstances.

Because of that purple patch many fans are talking up our chances-even Zip spoke of threatening the automatics if we beat Brentford next Saturday and I get the impression that many think that play-offs are a shoe-in, completely disregarding the likes of Stoke, 'Boro , Bristol City etc.

Whilst I think we have a fair chance I am more convinced by developing a winning habit rather than the fixation of players needing a rest during a maximum 49 game season.
Play the same team week-in, week -out and only change because of lack of form or injury.
I can think of only Morro, Laurent, Rino and the keeper who may have played in all 23 games so far so players get rest -how much rest do they need?

So that is not the 2 games per week that is often said about The Championship is is a case of 23 games over a 17 week period therefore in most cases players will have played a bit more than 90 minutes per week averaged over the team, taking into account substitutions.
Hasn't there been an International break?

Tell people they are tired and that they need a rest and they will feel tired.
Win games every week with a settled side and nobody is tired and if our first team had beaten Luton they would have gone into the Brentford game unbeaten in 2020 and on a high rather than "are you playing this week, I'm not sure, I wonder what the team will be?"

It is what it is and I look forward to our fully refreshed team being quick out of the blocks on Saturday and steam-rolling Brentford who will maybe still be getting over that extra game v Spurs.

Finally (and I promise not to post anymore on this topic) I remember my brother saying how sluggish we always are after an International break-he and I share the view that players just want to play.

I think there is a lot missed in just how fit modern players are. These guys are approaching peak human conditioning. The game is a lot more taxing now than it used to be. Fitness levels are demonstrably higher than they were even 10 years ago.

I dont understand the argument about winning games breeds winning games. I mean, I agree with that, but this wasn't the same team? None of the main lads will be affected by a reserve team losing a game they were barely involved in. You think Joao and Rafael will be thinking "christ we did bad in that cup game, that's really going to hurt our form". Nah m8. Reckon it means nothing to them and likely they are glad for the extra day off and eyeing the table thinking "this could be my chance to play in the Premier League".

I'm not sure if there really was a correlation and if it's just mere coincidence but last season's pre-post cup form (before the 3rd round) stands at:

4 successive wins, against two of the best home teams in the league
Vs
1 win in 10 games

What you say does make sense, that if it's a completely changed XI, it shouldn't have an impact on the first teamers. However, could you not argue that winning breeds confidence and so you want players to keep up their level of form, a two week break possibly having the opposite effect?

[NewCorkSeth]

Because of that purple patch many fans are talking up our chances-even Zip spoke of threatening the automatics if we beat Brentford next Saturday and I get the impression that many think that play-offs are a shoe-in, completely disregarding the likes of Stoke, 'Boro , Bristol City etc.

Whilst I think we have a fair chance I am more convinced by developing a winning habit rather than the fixation of players needing a rest during a maximum 49 game season.
Play the same team week-in, week -out and only change because of lack of form or injury.
I can think of only Morro, Laurent, Rino and the keeper who may have played in all 23 games so far so players get rest -how much rest do they need?

So that is not the 2 games per week that is often said about The Championship is is a case of 23 games over a 17 week period therefore in most cases players will have played a bit more than 90 minutes per week averaged over the team, taking into account substitutions.
Hasn't there been an International break?

Tell people they are tired and that they need a rest and they will feel tired.
Win games every week with a settled side and nobody is tired and if our first team had beaten Luton they would have gone into the Brentford game unbeaten in 2020 and on a high rather than "are you playing this week, I'm not sure, I wonder what the team will be?"

It is what it is and I look forward to our fully refreshed team being quick out of the blocks on Saturday and steam-rolling Brentford who will maybe still be getting over that extra game v Spurs.

Finally (and I promise not to post anymore on this topic) I remember my brother saying how sluggish we always are after an International break-he and I share the view that players just want to play.

I think there is a lot missed in just how fit modern players are. These guys are approaching peak human conditioning. The game is a lot more taxing now than it used to be. Fitness levels are demonstrably higher than they were even 10 years ago.

I dont understand the argument about winning games breeds winning games. I mean, I agree with that, but this wasn't the same team? None of the main lads will be affected by a reserve team losing a game they were barely involved in. You think Joao and Rafael will be thinking "christ we did bad in that cup game, that's really going to hurt our form". Nah m8. Reckon it means nothing to them and likely they are glad for the extra day off and eyeing the table thinking "this could be my chance to play in the Premier League".

I'm not sure if there really was a correlation and if it's just mere coincidence but last season's pre-post cup form (before the 3rd round) stands at:

4 successive wins, against two of the best home teams in the league
Vs
1 win in 10 games

What you say does make sense, that if it's a completely changed XI, it shouldn't have an impact on the first teamers. However, could you not argue that winning breeds confidence and so you want players to keep up their level of form, a two week break possibly having the opposite effect?

That certainly is interesting and I would love to read an article about this with a wider scope. Perhaps a league wide analysis? Good idea for The Athletic that.

I guess I would say it depends on the manager and coaching team. If they can motivate and run good sessions a 2 week break could be amazing right?

[Nameless]

If winning a cup game with your full strength team is seen as a guarantee of ongoing success, what would be the implications of playing your firstbteam but losing.? Worse than not playing your first team?

[NewCorkSeth]

If winning a cup game with your full strength team is seen as a guarantee of ongoing success, what would be the implications of playing your firstbteam but losing.? Worse than not playing your first team?

Very fair point. Risk vs reward eh! Anyway. It is an interesting debate. Not that the TB is the place for interesting debates.

[Millsy]

If winning a cup game with your full strength team is seen as a guarantee of ongoing success, what would be the implications of playing your firstbteam but losing.? Worse than not playing your first team?

Very fair point. Risk vs reward eh! Anyway. It is an interesting debate. Not that the TB is the place for interesting debates.

I once stupidly agreed to armwrestle a girl at school. I lost.

I've since declined all requests to armwrestle and underdog.

It's a lose / not-win situation.

[South Coast Royal]

If winning a cup game with your full strength team is seen as a guarantee of ongoing success, what would be the implications of playing your firstbteam but losing.? Worse than not playing your first team?

No guarantees-ask Bielsa who put out a very strong team and lost.
Presumably it would be written off as being only a cup game and we weren't fully focused.

BTW, are you trying to usurp Ian in the arguing for arguing 's sakes stakes? (try saying that last bit after a few sherbets).

[Nameless]

If winning a cup game with your full strength team is seen as a guarantee of ongoing success, what would be the implications of playing your firstbteam but losing.? Worse than not playing your first team?

No guarantees-ask Bielsa who put out a very strong team and lost.
Presumably it would be written off as being only a cup game and we weren't fully focused.

BTW, are you trying to usurp Ian in the arguing for arguing 's sakes stakes? (try saying that last bit after a few sherbets).

I’d assumed you were playing the Ian role (arguing vehemently for a position you probably don’t actually believe in despite all the evidence and reasonable posters being against you !)
We need to find someone who is an expert in team selection and strategy, has a vested interest in making the ‘right’ decision and is aware of the fitness and mentality of all the players. Would be interesting to see how the settle this conundrum. Any ideas who we could ask ?

[NewCorkSeth]

If winning a cup game with your full strength team is seen as a guarantee of ongoing success, what would be the implications of playing your firstbteam but losing.? Worse than not playing your first team?

Very fair point. Risk vs reward eh! Anyway. It is an interesting debate. Not that the TB is the place for interesting debates.

I once stupidly agreed to armwrestle a girl at school. I lost.

I've since declined all requests to armwrestle and underdog.

It's a lose / not-win situation.

Ooof. That is a hard one.

[Hound]

JLow reminds me there was no East either along with Watson.

Those two surely on their way unless injured.

[NewCorkSeth]

Ian frequently just ducks out of arguments when he gets bored. Just leaves like it means nothing to him. Bastard. I hate when he does that. Makes it certain that the whole thing was a waste of time.