Importance of tactics.

Westwood52
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Importance of tactics.

by Westwood52 » 30 May 2021 09:54

This weeks two European finals,emphasised how vital the correct tactics and the right coaching are at the highest level.
In the United game a vastly inferior Villarreal were able to drag down a star studded United attack into a cul de sac.Fernandez was never in the game,Pogba disappeared after half time and Cavani cut an isolated ,frustrated figure.Last night saw Man City , dragged by Tuchel into a series of blind alleys where they had nowhere to go.Over the two games both Manchester sides managed over the two games one meaningful shot on target each .At least Pep recognised the problem and changed his tactics,albeit to no avail.While OGS simply waited for penalties after throwing in the towel during extra time.
Southgate is not an experienced successful coach,and I fear the worst in the Euros.
Is Pauno a good coach ? If Plan A doesn’t work,over the season he struggled to come up with an alternative.Hopefully next season with his personally recruited bench,he can flex alternatives.
TBF over complicating the game was Gomes’s downfall.He tried to apply a scientific,cerebral game plan:which the players he had available to him,had no hope of applying.On the other side of the spectrum;the traditional approaches of Allardyce,Redknapp ,Pulis and maybe even Ferguson;appear to be something out of the dark ages.Get the ball and play ,would no longer work as such tactics will be sucked into being exploited.The ever evolving appeal of this game.

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by Once upon a time . » 30 May 2021 13:47

Well thanks Westwood52 , and there was me just thinking that Man City lost the game because the CB just didn’t do his job !

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by Franchise FC » 30 May 2021 14:22

Once upon a time . Well thanks Westwood52 , and there was me just thinking that Man City lost the game because the CB just didn’t do his job !

Actually, it was the left back, but hey

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by Westwood52 » 30 May 2021 15:35

Once upon a time . Well thanks Westwood52 , and there was me just thinking that Man City lost the game because the CB just didn’t do his job !



Just a tiny bit more that.Maybe I am listening to too many so called pundits.

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by bloody Volvo driver » 31 May 2021 08:28

A classic example of where VP got his tactics right, then wrong in the same game and ultimately cost us the fixture, was the Brentford home game.

Very unusually we played a high pressing / intensity game, got right in their faces, and no doubt confused our W London friends whose scouting reports would have had no mention of us doing so.

The problem was such a game, especially for a team that doesn’t do so very often, is it is energy sapping and a lot started breathing out of their backsides on 60-70 onwards. VP had to make shrewd subs at right times, something he failed to do (not for the first time) and 2 quick fire goals around the 85th minute cost us a well earned point.

Yes the bench may have been “weak”, but a 100% energised benchwarmer had to have been a better option than a (for example) completely run out of steam Josh L.


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Re: Importance of tactics.

by BR0B0T » 31 May 2021 11:13

Westwood52 This week's two European finals, emphasized how vital the correct tactics and the right coaching are at the highest level.

In the United game, a vastly inferior Villarreal were able to drag down a star-studded United attack into a cul de sac. Fernandez was never in the game, Pogba disappeared after half time and Cavani cut an isolated, frustrated figure.

Last night saw Man City, dragged by Tuchel into a series of blind alleys where they had nowhere to go. Over the two games, both Manchester sides managed one meaningful shot on target each. At least Pep recognised the problem and changed his tactics, albeit to no avail. While OGS simply waited for penalties after throwing in the towel during extra time.

Southgate is not an experienced successful coach, and I fear the worst in the Euros.

Is Pauno a good coach? If Plan A doesn’t work, over the season he struggled to come up with an alternative. Hopefully next season with his personally recruited bench, he can flex alternatives.

TBF overcomplicating the game was Gomes’s downfall. He tried to apply a scientific, cerebral game plan: which the players he had available to him, had no hope of applying. On the other side of the spectrum, the traditional approaches of Allardyce, Redknapp, Pulis (and maybe even Ferguson) appear to be something out of the dark ages. Get the ball and play, would no longer work as such tactics will be sucked into being exploited. The ever-evolving appeal of this game.


EDITED a bit to make it readable

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by Snowflake Royal » 31 May 2021 13:22

I'm going to stick to my mantra that 'has no plan b' is just one of the latest fan buzzword criticisms of a manager when the team isn't successful or playing well.

I say, oxf*rd plan B, let's just do plan A well and have options on the bench to replace elements of it that aren't working in a particular game.

Keep it simple. Keep it up tempo and wide when attacking and slow it down and compress when defending. Be positive and move back to front quickly, that's how you catch out defence.

Did Coppell have lots of plans? No, he had one plan and he had cover for the players in it for injury / poor performance. Everyone knew what everyone was supposed to do and where they should be at a given moment, because the plan was straightforward.

As for Southgate not being successful? Didn't he win a trophy at Boro? And whilst he might have had an easy ride, he's got further than any manager for England since Robson. And experienced? He's been managing for about 15 years!

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by Sutekh » 31 May 2021 13:46

Snowflake Royal As for Southgate not being successful? Didn't he win a trophy at Boro? And whilst he might have had an easy ride, he's got further than any manager for England since Robson. And experienced? He's been managing for about 15 years!


Aside from a manager of the month award and a Toulon tournament (if that counts as a thing), Gareth Southgate has never won anything of real note as a manager and as a player the only things he got were League Cup winners medals with Villa back in 1995 and Middlesbrough in 2004.

For the record his first game as a manager was on 19 August 2006 when he took Middlesbrough to some club in Berkshire....

He hasn’t been managing for 15 years - he was at ‘boro for 3 years leading them to relegation but was sacked after a bright start in the Championship that saw the club 4th in the table at the time. He was then out of football for 4 years before taking over the England U21s from Stuart Pearce in 2013 and then getting the full England job after “Samgate” in 2016.

As England manager he’s basically done what any manager of England should be able to do given the talent available. Under him the team are generally difficult to beat but lack a little bit of flair and excitement and, IMO, also some of the risk you need to take in order to win things.

Overall he come across as a thoroughly decent chap who goes about things in a very professional manner and someone who deserves that little bit of luck to upset and apple cart or two

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by Elm Park Kid » 31 May 2021 17:25

It seems to me that people overlook how much the players and managers have to understand/know each other for them to implement any type of tactics in the first place. How often players are blindly putting balls into spaces because they are supposed to have a team mate in them, or are able to push up the pitch because they know exactly who is filling in behind them when they do. When you don't have that kind of instinctive mentality on the pitch it makes the team look slow, or maybe even uninterested, as they are constantly having to look and hesitate before making a play.

Changing managers every season doesn't help with that, especially when they bring in a new coaching team and swap out a big chunk of the squad.


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Re: Importance of tactics.

by Linden Jones' Tash » 31 May 2021 18:24

Unless you are Chelsea?

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by Elm Park Kid » 31 May 2021 21:25

Linden Jones' Tash Unless you are Chelsea?


Well yeah, if Reading spent £200m every season it wouldn't be a big issue.

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by Franchise FC » 31 May 2021 21:52

Elm Park Kid
Linden Jones' Tash Unless you are Chelsea?


Well yeah, if Reading spent £200m every season it wouldn't be a big issue.

It might just be for FFP

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by SCIAG » 31 May 2021 22:36

Sutekh
As England manager he’s basically done what any manager of England should be able to do given the talent available.

Have you forgotten 2018? Our best World Cup performance since 1990 despite what was seen as a pretty weak squad? Nobody was expecting us to get to the semi-finals that year.

He followed that up with a third placed finish in the Nations League.

He's already proven a better England manager than Glenn Hoddle, Terry Venables, Sven Goran Eriksson, Fabio Capello, Roy Hodgson, and the rest of them. To write that off as "just doing what anyone should be able to do" ignores that multiple talented managers failed to do it!

I understand that some fans are upset that he doesn't pick Foden, Grealish, Mount and Maddison in the same team. To those people, I point to the Sven era... the last World Cup winners who didn't play two defensive midfielders were the West Germany team of 1990! In the same time period, five of the seven Euro winners did the same. Southgate isn't unusually conservative by the standards of major tournament winners.


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Re: Importance of tactics.

by Westwood52 » 01 Jun 2021 08:49

SCIAG
Sutekh
As England manager he’s basically done what any manager of England should be able to do given the talent available.

Have you forgotten 2018? Our best World Cup performance since 1990 despite what was seen as a pretty weak squad? Nobody was expecting us to get to the semi-finals that year.

He followed that up with a third placed finish in the Nations League.

He's already proven a better England manager than Glenn Hoddle, Terry Venables, Sven Goran Eriksson, Fabio Capello, Roy Hodgson, and the rest of them. To write that off as "just doing what anyone should be able to do" ignores that multiple talented managers failed to do it!

I understand that some fans are upset that he doesn't pick Foden, Grealish, Mount and Maddison in the same team. To those people, I point to the Sven era... the last World Cup winners who didn't play two defensive midfielders were the West Germany team of 1990! In the same time period, five of the seven Euro winners did the same. Southgate isn't unusually conservative by the standards of major tournament winners.


Didn’t El Tel get us to a semi ?

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by Royalwaster » 01 Jun 2021 09:32

SCIAG
Sutekh
As England manager he’s basically done what any manager of England should be able to do given the talent available.

Have you forgotten 2018? Our best World Cup performance since 1990 despite what was seen as a pretty weak squad? Nobody was expecting us to get to the semi-finals that year.

He followed that up with a third placed finish in the Nations League.

He's already proven a better England manager than Glenn Hoddle, Terry Venables, Sven Goran Eriksson, Fabio Capello, Roy Hodgson, and the rest of them. To write that off as "just doing what anyone should be able to do" ignores that multiple talented managers failed to do it!

I understand that some fans are upset that he doesn't pick Foden, Grealish, Mount and Maddison in the same team. To those people, I point to the Sven era... the last World Cup winners who didn't play two defensive midfielders were the West Germany team of 1990! In the same time period, five of the seven Euro winners did the same. Southgate isn't unusually conservative by the standards of major tournament winners.


I wish I'm wrong but I also don't rate Gareth Southgate .. 2018 was a bit lucky as we got a very easy draw. As soon as we met someone good, we lost. Seriously, do you think if GS became Chelsea or ManCity manager, do you think they'd win the Prem or CL?

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by muirinho » 01 Jun 2021 10:19

Royalwaster
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Sutekh
As England manager he’s basically done what any manager of England should be able to do given the talent available.

Have you forgotten 2018? Our best World Cup performance since 1990 despite what was seen as a pretty weak squad? Nobody was expecting us to get to the semi-finals that year.

He followed that up with a third placed finish in the Nations League.

He's already proven a better England manager than Glenn Hoddle, Terry Venables, Sven Goran Eriksson, Fabio Capello, Roy Hodgson, and the rest of them. To write that off as "just doing what anyone should be able to do" ignores that multiple talented managers failed to do it!

I understand that some fans are upset that he doesn't pick Foden, Grealish, Mount and Maddison in the same team. To those people, I point to the Sven era... the last World Cup winners who didn't play two defensive midfielders were the West Germany team of 1990! In the same time period, five of the seven Euro winners did the same. Southgate isn't unusually conservative by the standards of major tournament winners.


I wish I'm wrong but I also don't rate Gareth Southgate .. 2018 was a bit lucky as we got a very easy draw. As soon as we met someone good, we lost. Seriously, do you think if GS became Chelsea or ManCity manager, do you think they'd win the Prem or CL?


I've no dog in this fight, but just wanted to comment on that last line.

Managing a club is entirely different to managing a country. When you manage a club you're trying to get the players you want and are suited to the style of play you want. You're looking at how players develop long-term, and bringing through players from the academy, or going shopping for players if you don't like what's available. There's a lot more long-term strategic planning going on (you'd hope).

Managing a country, on the other hand, is about analysing the resources you've got, and coming up with the best game-plans and formations, with those players. You've got to meld players who are used to entirely different formations and styles of play to a coherent whole - generally speaking within a very short timescale. There isn't any long-term strategic planning as part of your role - it's all about the next set of games.

Being good at one does not mean being good at the other.

Oddly enough, I'd think that managers who've spent their careers in smaller clubs, where there isn't an unlimited pool of excellent players, and you're trying to make silk purses of a random collection of loanees and free transfers - those skills are probably a lot more transferable to managing a country then managers of clubs like Man City.

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by muirinho » 01 Jun 2021 10:26

muirinho
Royalwaster
SCIAG Have you forgotten 2018? Our best World Cup performance since 1990 despite what was seen as a pretty weak squad? Nobody was expecting us to get to the semi-finals that year.

He followed that up with a third placed finish in the Nations League.

He's already proven a better England manager than Glenn Hoddle, Terry Venables, Sven Goran Eriksson, Fabio Capello, Roy Hodgson, and the rest of them. To write that off as "just doing what anyone should be able to do" ignores that multiple talented managers failed to do it!

I understand that some fans are upset that he doesn't pick Foden, Grealish, Mount and Maddison in the same team. To those people, I point to the Sven era... the last World Cup winners who didn't play two defensive midfielders were the West Germany team of 1990! In the same time period, five of the seven Euro winners did the same. Southgate isn't unusually conservative by the standards of major tournament winners.


I wish I'm wrong but I also don't rate Gareth Southgate .. 2018 was a bit lucky as we got a very easy draw. As soon as we met someone good, we lost. Seriously, do you think if GS became Chelsea or ManCity manager, do you think they'd win the Prem or CL?


I've no dog in this fight, but just wanted to comment on that last line.

Managing a club is entirely different to managing a country. When you manage a club you're trying to get the players you want and are suited to the style of play you want. You're looking at how players develop long-term, and bringing through players from the academy, or going shopping for players if you don't like what's available. There's a lot more long-term strategic planning going on (you'd hope).

Managing a country, on the other hand, is about analysing the resources you've got, and coming up with the best game-plans and formations, with those players. You've got to meld players who are used to entirely different formations and styles of play to a coherent whole - generally speaking within a very short timescale. There isn't any long-term strategic planning as part of your role - it's all about the next set of games.

Being good at one does not mean being good at the other.

Oddly enough, I'd think that managers who've spent their careers in smaller clubs, where there isn't an unlimited pool of excellent players, and you're trying to make silk purses of a random collection of loanees and free transfers - those skills are probably a lot more transferable to managing a country then managers of clubs like Man City.


Edit: Another comment on this. Sometimes the reason small countries (e.g., Wales) punch above their weight is actually because there is a limited pool of players who therefore play a lot of internationals together. They bond with each other, they know what to expect from each other. There are a couple of star players, and there are the rest. Big countries on the other hand are choosing from a bigger pool, and therefore (a) there is more turnover, less consistency and (b) probably more ego-clashes.
The Netherlands and France have shown a number of times that a collection of very talented players does not always make a team. This is why it's the team-building skills of international managers that are crucial.

Oops, meant to edit my existing post rather than reply to it. I'm now talking to myself....

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by SCIAG » 01 Jun 2021 13:06

Westwood52
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As England manager he’s basically done what any manager of England should be able to do given the talent available.

Have you forgotten 2018? Our best World Cup performance since 1990 despite what was seen as a pretty weak squad? Nobody was expecting us to get to the semi-finals that year.

He followed that up with a third placed finish in the Nations League.

He's already proven a better England manager than Glenn Hoddle, Terry Venables, Sven Goran Eriksson, Fabio Capello, Roy Hodgson, and the rest of them. To write that off as "just doing what anyone should be able to do" ignores that multiple talented managers failed to do it!

I understand that some fans are upset that he doesn't pick Foden, Grealish, Mount and Maddison in the same team. To those people, I point to the Sven era... the last World Cup winners who didn't play two defensive midfielders were the West Germany team of 1990! In the same time period, five of the seven Euro winners did the same. Southgate isn't unusually conservative by the standards of major tournament winners.


Didn’t El Tel get us to a semi ?

No. Hoddle did (96) but that was at home, and in a 16-team Euros. Only won one knockout match.

I don’t really buy the “easy draw” argument either - we’ve performed worse with weaker draws. Colombia were a very good side.

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by Franchise FC » 01 Jun 2021 14:00

SCIAG
Westwood52
SCIAG Have you forgotten 2018? Our best World Cup performance since 1990 despite what was seen as a pretty weak squad? Nobody was expecting us to get to the semi-finals that year.

He followed that up with a third placed finish in the Nations League.

He's already proven a better England manager than Glenn Hoddle, Terry Venables, Sven Goran Eriksson, Fabio Capello, Roy Hodgson, and the rest of them. To write that off as "just doing what anyone should be able to do" ignores that multiple talented managers failed to do it!

I understand that some fans are upset that he doesn't pick Foden, Grealish, Mount and Maddison in the same team. To those people, I point to the Sven era... the last World Cup winners who didn't play two defensive midfielders were the West Germany team of 1990! In the same time period, five of the seven Euro winners did the same. Southgate isn't unusually conservative by the standards of major tournament winners.


Didn’t El Tel get us to a semi ?

No. Hoddle did (96) but that was at home, and in a 16-team Euros. Only won one knockout match.

I don’t really buy the “easy draw” argument either - we’ve performed worse with weaker draws. Colombia were a very good side.

You might want to check before definitively making a statement.
It was need Terry Vegetable that managed England to that semi

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Re: Importance of tactics.

by SCIAG » 02 Jun 2021 09:38

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Didn’t El Tel get us to a semi ?

No. Hoddle did (96) but that was at home, and in a 16-team Euros. Only won one knockout match.

I don’t really buy the “easy draw” argument either - we’ve performed worse with weaker draws. Colombia were a very good side.

You might want to check before definitively making a statement.
It was need Terry Vegetable that managed England to that semi

I did check, but obviously not well enough!

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