Nice Paul Ince interview in the Telegraph

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Nice Paul Ince interview in the Telegraph

by Binfield Royal » 27 Jan 2023 14:55

Paul Ince: 'Alex Ferguson ended my Manchester United career in a golf club carpark'
Ince's Reading play Manchester United in the FA Cup on Saturday, in a match that evokes vivid memories of the midfielder's glory years

By
Jason Burt,
CHIEF FOOTBALL CORRESPONDENT
27 January 2023 • 10:57am


Even though Paul Ince is the “boy from north Dagenham who was never one for the attention” he will relish the long walk along the touchline to the dug-out at Old Trafford on Saturday as he takes his Reading side to face Manchester United in the fourth round of the FA Cup.

It is a prestigious tie that resonates for Ince. Not just for the six hugely successful years he spent from 1989 as the engine in United’s Rolls-Royce midfield, when the club took off under Sir Alex Ferguson, but also because being a manager is something he felt had gone for him.

Ince's eight years out of the game is astonishing and feels wrong and while his focus is on keeping Reading in the Championship – he says he would happily swap three points against Watford next weekend for victory at Manchester United – it will “not be a sightseeing tour” at Old Trafford. “We are going there to try and win a game – and who says we can’t?” Ince says.

Such belief defined his playing career and is why the 55-year-old was a success not just at United but also at Inter Milan and Liverpool: three massive clubs that the former England international took in his stride. Mention of Inter, though, is a reminder of the dramatic circumstances under which Ince left United.

There are conflicting stories as to just what happened. In Ferguson's first autobiography, defending himself, he claims that Ince had already had contact with the Italian giants and had helped engineer the shock £7.5million move.

So here is Ince’s version of that day in the summer of 1995.

“I was playing golf at Mottram Hall, with Giggsy [Ryan Giggs],” he says. “We got to the 16th and my phone rang and it was Sir Alex saying, ‘I need to see you’. So I said, ‘Ok, gaffer.’ And I was thinking – what have I done? It’s like a kid going to see the headmaster. I was thinking ‘No, I didn’t go out last night!’

“So my mind is going like that and I said, ‘Ok, gaffer, I will pop in and see you tomorrow’ and he said, ‘No, I am at the golf club.’ I said, ‘What!’ And he said, ‘I am at the golf club.’

“I was in the buggy with Giggsy – and I was one up and all – and I said, ‘I have to go, the gaffer’s here.’ So I left Giggsy there and he [Sir Alex] was sat in his car. I said, ‘What’s wrong, gaffer?’ and he said, ‘Listen we have had an offer from Inter Milan for £7.5million and we are accepting it.'”

Was that really the first he had heard of the deal?

“Yes. He [Ferguson] said, ‘We have Nicky Butt coming through and we are trying to build Carrington [the new training ground] so we need the money.’

“I was shocked at first, thinking I had been here for six years, was coming into my prime, thinking about another four-year contract and negotiating that, which would have taken me to my testimonial year.

“Thomas [his eldest son] was only two so we were thinking about nurseries and I got hit with that. It was more shock than anything. I told Giggsy and he nearly collapses. So the next week was tough.”

I tell him that I had read somewhere that Ferguson eventually accepted that he had made a mistake in selling Ince. “Yeah, he did!” Ince says, smiling.

“Listen, it’s fine. Sir Alex and I have a great relationship. Next year they won the Premier League. It wasn’t just me – Mark Hughes left, [Andrei] Kanchelskis left. It doesn’t mean the decision to let me go was right but it shows the greatness of the man.

“But I am pleased I did it. It widened my horizons, I learnt another language, made me a better player, a different type of player, more technical. And to be fair Serie A was the best league in the world. They had the greatest players: Baggio, Baresi, Maldini, Desailly. Obviously I would rather have stayed at United for the rest of my career. Look at Giggsy and Gary Neville – that could easily have been me with 12, 14 years at Manchester United. But I had an amazing career.”

Manchester United manager Alex Ferguson (left) with Paul Ince, circa 1991
Ferguson and Ince, pictured here around 1991, still have a good relationship CREDIT: Paul Popper/Popperfoto
'1992 title set us off'
And the FA Cup is where it all started for him, for Ferguson and for United also. What followed was an avalanche of trophies. “In the first year we won the FA Cup and that was a bigger thing for me [than the league] because as a kid we used to play in the school playground and it was all based on going to Wembley, walking up the steps, lifting the cup,” Ince says.

“All kids played it but I never envisaged doing it. I always knew I would be a footballer but at what level I didn’t know. But I didn’t think I would get the chance to go to Wembley and lift the FA Cup.”

And it did feel like lift-off.

“We finished 13th that year,” Ince says. “It wasn’t fifth or sixth but after winning it there was a sense amongst us that we were not that bad and we could win things. But it only really changed about winning the title when we beat Barcelona in the Cup Winners Cup [in 1991]. That was the turning point for us. If we could beat Barcelona we could beat anyone.”

Ince cites Bryan Robson as one of the main reasons he joined United from West Ham. “He was my idol and I wanted to emulate what he did. I never got close. Going to Man United was great – the biggest club in the world – but it was even better to play with Bryan Robson because I held him in such high esteem,” he says.

So when, after 26 years, United did finally win the title in 1992-93 it was all the more vital to Ince that Robson was still there and that Sir Matt Busby lived to see it.

“I don’t think there are any titles or cups they have won that were more important. They won the treble in '99 but that was the one; the one that set it all off,” Ince argues.

In the next season there would be another league title while he still winces at losing out to Blackburn on the final day the following year.

“It’s hard to go through the generations but I think when you look at what we had in that team with the likes of Keane and Giggs, Beckham and Kanchelskis, Cantona and Hughes, Schmeichel. You could go to Wimbledon against Fashanu and Vinnie Jones and you could mix it or you could go to Spurs and play them off the park. Even if I wasn’t involved in that team I would say, looking at all the teams United had over the years, that was the best."


'Ten Hag is a breath of fresh air'
Of course United have now gone six years without winning a trophy.

“That can’t be right,” Ince says. “Even in '89 when we were building as a team we still won the FA Cup, the Cup Winners Cup, the League Cup, before we won the title. Man United have to be winning trophies. Six years without one, given all the money they have spent, seems unreal.”

But Ince believes they are on their way back under Erik ten Hag. “What was concerning me and what you don’t see now was all the stuff that was coming out in the press,” he says of the chaotic time before the Dutchman arrived. “Stuff in-house about the fragmentation of the group, cliques, I didn’t like that – with Pogba, Ronaldo. It didn’t feel like Man United and it was reflected with performances on the pitch. This season he has come in like a breath of fresh air.”

'I've been married 32 years but never really been there'
It is exactly what Ince has been since he arrived at Reading last February where he has performed miracles under a transfer embargo and is determined to build a brighter future.

Maybe he is all the more determined because of the eight years he spent out of management after being brutally sacked by Blackpool in 2014 despite the club being 14th in the Championship with the division’s lowest budget. “I got a bit despondent,” Ince admits. And while he was offered “one of two jobs” they were back at the bottom of League Two where he had started with Macclesfield Town.

“It was firefighting,” Ince says. He considered moving abroad, but had a young family, so he waited for the right job. For the right “project”. It did not come along. Instead Ince threw himself into punditry and family life – spending time in London with his daughter, Ria, who was at university, playing golf with his son Daniel, who is about to turn professional in that sport, and watching Tom play football.

“I had gone from ‘I need to manage, it’s my life, it’s my passion, I am obsessed with it’ to ‘I can actually live without football’. It was healthy. I could sleep at night! Now I am tossing and turning,” Ince says.

“It was also strange for my wife Claire because all of a sudden I am under her feet. We have been married for 32 years and all my career I have never really been there and you do miss certain days, you do miss your kids’ birthdays. So it was really important. And what I realised in those eight years was how important family is.”

'I didn't want relegation on my conscience'

Ince started at Reading as an interim manager before getting the job on a full-time basis CREDIT: Geoff Pugh
Then last February the phone rang. It was Reading, where Tom was and whom Ince watched a lot of. They were in trouble and told him that manager Veljko Paunovic was resigning. They asked if Ince would he take over “for one or two games until we find someone else”.

It was as blunt as that and, naturally, Ince asked himself whether he wanted to disturb “my lovely life”. Claire said he should and that tipped it. Ince won his first game, 2-1 against Birmingham, went on a six-game run and suddenly it was 10 games and he was asked to stay until the end of the season.

“And I thought to myself ‘please, just keep them up.’ Not for my sake. But I felt the responsibility,” Ince explains. “I was thinking of all the staff here and if we went into League One the budget would have been cut 50 per cent, people would lose their jobs. I wasn’t thinking of the players I was thinking about the people who work here. It would have been horrible and I didn’t want that on my conscience.”

He did keep them up and, during a family holiday in Barbados, the call came asking him to become the permanent manager. “I was told, ‘This is the situation with the embargo, it’s going to be tough but if we can get past it [this season] we can build for the next two, three years.’ And the fact that was the plan, the project, it was what I was looking for. If I can keep this team in the league, if I can get to 50 points [Reading already have 37] it allows me then to think about the future. That’s what I have to do.”

English Football League - Championship
Team P W D L GD Pts
12 Swansea City 28 10 9 9 2 39
13 Queens Park Rangers 28 10 8 10 -3 38
14 Reading 28 11 4 13 -11 37
15 Coventry City 27 9 8 10 -2 35
16 Hull City 28 9 7 12 -11 34
17 Bristol City 28 8 9 11 -1 33
18 Stoke City 28 9 6 13 -4 33
19 Birmingham City 28 8 8 12 -5 32
20 Rotherham United 28 7 10 11 -7 31
21 Cardiff City 28 7 8 13 -10 29
22 Huddersfield Town 26 7 5 14 -8 26
23 Blackpool 27 6 8 13 -12 26
24 Wigan Athletic 28 6 7 15 -22 25
Despite declaring it “the hardest managerial job I have ever had” with the “sanctions geared for us going down” it has turned out to be exactly what Ince had been looking for.

And now he will lead them out at Old Trafford. Not that Ince wants the limelight. “When we got this game it takes you back to when you played and I don’t want it to be about me. I want it to be about the fans, the players, the owner,” he says. “And I really would rather lose to Man United and beat Watford. It has to be the focus. That is for the future of the club.”

There is a pause before Ince adds: “But of course I want to win both.”

'Where's the next black British manager coming from'
Ince has spoken of his “alarm” that 15 years after he was appointed by Blackburn Rovers he remains the only black British manager to have taken charge of a Premier League club on a permanent basis.

“It’s the 21st Century and I am not only the first black British manager to have worked in the Premier League but, 15 years later, the only one,” he says. “I couldn’t say no because I was a trailblazer. You want to use that so that hopefully others follow. But that’s not happened. That’s quite sad. Hopefully in five years’ time… but then who? Who is going to make that jump? I don’t know. I don’t see it.”

Ince lasted just 17 games at Blackburn, and admits it came too soon in his managerial career which started at Macclesfield Town and then MK Dons. Since then there have been caretakers and interims in Terry Connor, Chris Ramsey and Hayden Mullins while Darren Moore was only given the full-time job at West Bromwich Albion after they were relegated in 2018. Chris Hughton at Brighton is often cited, and was born in London, but he is Irish.

It is a mark of the responsibility that Ince feels that he passionately discusses the importance of bringing through black coaches, although he admits that he will discourage his 30-year-old son Tom from following that path when he retires as a player at Reading.

“How many black managers and coaches are there? It doesn’t bode well. I have my son Thomas who is 30 now and six, seven years’ time…” Ince says.

Is Thomas thinking about coaching?

“Why would I put him into it? Is he going to get the chance? I don’t think so,” Ince argues. “It’s why you see so many ex-players go straight into media. Look at someone like Sol Campbell – first job he got was Macclesfield. First job I got was Macclesfield. Other players are getting bigger clubs.

“Look at someone like John Barnes. When you talk to him about football, some of the things he says are amazing. After he left Tranmere he couldn’t get a job. How can he not get a job? It’s madness.

“There is definitely something there. There has to be an opportunity for black coaches. It’s really alarming. Some people turn a blind eye to it but I, for one, wouldn’t push my son into management at this moment in time. But that’s not my decision. It’s his decision.

“I worry about the future. I worry about black players coming to the end of their time, will there be avenues for them in coaching? Fifteen years down the line and we haven’t moved on.”

Ince claims clubs the football bodies such as the FA, PFA and LMA talk about giving black coaches a chance but are paying lip-service. “We talk about this Rooney rule we have in America. Clubs try and make out they are aware of it but their eyes are shut,” he says.

“I just hope that going forward we make sure that there are enough black coaches going for interviews, that there is a pool big enough so that every time a job comes up they do have to interview a black manager. He might not get the first job, or second job but might get the third one. It will have a domino effect.”

Given he is one of the few black British managers, Ince says it is important for him to speak out.

“I feel sometimes we need a voice. But the voice when we talk about black coaches always comes from black people. As the years have gone on, nothing has really changed.”

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Re: Nice Paul Ince interview in the Telegraph

by Hound » 27 Jan 2023 16:06

Good read

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Re: Nice Paul Ince interview in the Telegraph

by Sutekh » 27 Jan 2023 16:34

It says “They were in trouble and told him that manager Veljko Paunovic was resigning” I thought VP was sacked.

Also, helping to give the article proper MSM credibility, is the lack of fact checking from Paul as he is neither the first nor only black manager in the Premier League.

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Re: Nice Paul Ince interview in the Telegraph

by tidus_mi2 » 27 Jan 2023 16:38

Sutekh It says “They were in trouble and told him that manager Veljko Paunovic was resigning” I thought VP was sacked.

Also, helping to give the article proper MSM credibility, is the lack of fact checking from Paul as he is neither the first nor only black manager in the Premier League.

They said British black manager which I believe is accuarate

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Re: Nice Paul Ince interview in the Telegraph

by Sutekh » 27 Jan 2023 16:44

tidus_mi2
Sutekh It says “They were in trouble and told him that manager Veljko Paunovic was resigning” I thought VP was sacked.

Also, helping to give the article proper MSM credibility, is the lack of fact checking from Paul as he is neither the first nor only black manager in the Premier League.

They said British black manager which I believe is accuarate


Let him off in saying British! But equally how many British managers do you get in the PL these days anyway. Think there’s only 7 at the moment - Rodgers, Moyes, Howe, Cooper, Potter, Jones and O’Neil


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Re: Nice Paul Ince interview in the Telegraph

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 27 Jan 2023 16:46

Sutekh It says “They were in trouble and told him that manager Veljko Paunovic was resigning” I thought VP was sacked.


I don't think it was ever confirmed that Pauno was sacked, it just seems like a mutual agreement, the BBC report reads that we "parted company" with Pauno.

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Re: Nice Paul Ince interview in the Telegraph

by South Coast Royal » 27 Jan 2023 16:53

A good read and hopefully he will be able to enjoy the game tomorrow evening.

On his later points about black managers this topic crops up often and yesterday one of those was sacked by Wigan after some dire results.

A crude calculation based on afro/caribbean making up 3 % of our population would therefore 3% of managers in our professional game being black be about the right ratio?
I said a "crude" calculation because it has not taken into account ages nor sex in reaching the 3% in terms of being able and qualified to manage a team but if we were to assume say 5% of the right age and sex that then means only 5 black managers which I believe is around the current level.

What would be more interesting would be to see the numbers in terms of how many black people have the full badges required and then relate those numbers to how many white and then to the 92 potential jobs available.

The number of black players has increased considerably in recent years and at our club the numbers often are in the majority for the starting eleven.
Obviously a number of those players are not from the UK (e.g. Meite, Joao,Rahman,Sarr etc.) so when they finish playing I guess that most return to their country of origin so would not be looking at coaching/managerial jobs here.

I suspect that with the greater numbers of black players in our game, whether from here or abroad, and numbers much greater than Ince was on about from 15 years ago, there will be more qualified black managers and coaches looking for work.
There are certainly many black ex-players appearing on our screens and on the radio as pundits so for that type of work their numbers are way, way higher than the 3% ratio mentioned earlier.

So, I wonder how many do become qualified and have the basic requirement for a manager's job regardless of their other assets that an employer might look for in terms of leadership, personality drive etc. because without knowing the numbers of qualified it is impossible to know whether there really is an issue of the proportions that Ince and others have spoken about.

There certainly are very few black managers in the major leagues of England, France, Italy or Spain so if there is an issue it is in football across the board rather than just in UK.

BTW, as with the majority I guess on here, I am very happy with the job that Paul Ince has done and who knows, given the support financially by our club, he may yet be a manager again in the Premier League ,not because he is black or white but because he has proven himself to be a good manager-he didn't even apply for the job, he was asked to do it. which surely means that if race is the issue in some quarters it isn't at Reading despite what Moore and others might think..

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Re: Nice Paul Ince interview in the Telegraph

by South Coast Royal » 27 Jan 2023 16:55

Sutekh
tidus_mi2
Sutekh It says “They were in trouble and told him that manager Veljko Paunovic was resigning” I thought VP was sacked.

Also, helping to give the article proper MSM credibility, is the lack of fact checking from Paul as he is neither the first nor only black manager in the Premier League.

They said British black manager which I believe is accuarate


Let him off in saying British! But equally how many British managers do you get in the PL these days anyway. Think there’s only 7 at the moment - Rodgers, Moyes, Howe, Cooper, Potter, Jones and O’Neil


Of which only 2 (?) are English.

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Re: Nice Paul Ince interview in the Telegraph

by Sutekh » 27 Jan 2023 16:58

South Coast Royal
Sutekh
tidus_mi2 They said British black manager which I believe is accuarate


Let him off in saying British! But equally how many British managers do you get in the PL these days anyway. Think there’s only 7 at the moment - Rodgers, Moyes, Howe, Cooper, Potter, Jones and O’Neil


Of which only 2 (?) are English.


3 - Howe, O’Neil and Potter.


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Re: Nice Paul Ince interview in the Telegraph

by South Coast Royal » 27 Jan 2023 17:03

Sutekh
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Sutekh
Let him off in saying British! But equally how many British managers do you get in the PL these days anyway. Think there’s only 7 at the moment - Rodgers, Moyes, Howe, Cooper, Potter, Jones and O’Neil


Of which only 2 (?) are English.


3 - Howe, O’Neil and Potter.


Yes, good correction.
I was thinking of O'Neil being of the Martin or Michael category-maybe I had a premonition that he won't be a manager for much longer. :wink: .
I should have asked him as he doesn't live far away from me.

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Re: Nice Paul Ince interview in the Telegraph

by Sutekh » 27 Jan 2023 17:03

South Coast Royal A good read and hopefully he will be able to enjoy the game tomorrow evening.

On his later points about black managers this topic crops up often and yesterday one of those was sacked by Wigan after some dire results.

A crude calculation based on afro/caribbean making up 3 % of our population would therefore 3% of managers in our professional game being black be about the right ratio?
I said a "crude" calculation because it has not taken into account ages nor sex in reaching the 3% in terms of being able and qualified to manage a team but if we were to assume say 5% of the right age and sex that then means only 5 black managers which I believe is around the current level.

What would be more interesting would be to see the numbers in terms of how many black people have the full badges required and then relate those numbers to how many white and then to the 92 potential jobs available.

The number of black players has increased considerably in recent years and at our club the numbers often are in the majority for the starting eleven.
Obviously a number of those players are not from the UK (e.g. Meite, Joao,Rahman,Sarr etc.) so when they finish playing I guess that most return to their country of origin so would not be looking at coaching/managerial jobs here.

I suspect that with the greater numbers of black players in our game, whether from here or abroad, and numbers much greater than Ince was on about from 15 years ago, there will be more qualified black managers and coaches looking for work.
There are certainly many black ex-players appearing on our screens and on the radio as pundits so for that type of work their numbers are way, way higher than the 3% ratio mentioned earlier.

So, I wonder how many do become qualified and have the basic requirement for a manager's job regardless of their other assets that an employer might look for in terms of leadership, personality drive etc. because without knowing the numbers of qualified it is impossible to know whether there really is an issue of the proportions that Ince and others have spoken about.

There certainly are very few black managers in the major leagues of England, France, Italy or Spain so if there is an issue it is in football across the board rather than just in UK.

BTW, as with the majority I guess on here, I am very happy with the job that Paul Ince has done and who knows, given the support financially by our club, he may yet be a manager again in the Premier League ,not because he is black or white but because he has proven himself to be a good manager-he didn't even apply for the job, he was asked to do it. which surely means that if race is the issue in some quarters it isn't at Reading despite what Moore and others might think..


Agree with that but never thought it was an issue at the club, certainly since not the mid 80s anyway, though I did hear a story that Maurice Evans wanted to sign Cyrille Regis, back when Cyrille was playing for Hayes, but that the Reading board didn’t want to spend money on that “type of player” - how true that was I guess we’ll never know but certainly was short sighted though typical of the unambitious way the club was led then.

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Re: Nice Paul Ince interview in the Telegraph

by muirinho » 27 Jan 2023 17:32

Sutekh
tidus_mi2
Sutekh It says “They were in trouble and told him that manager Veljko Paunovic was resigning” I thought VP was sacked.

Also, helping to give the article proper MSM credibility, is the lack of fact checking from Paul as he is neither the first nor only black manager in the Premier League.

They said British black manager which I believe is accuarate


Let him off in saying British! But equally how many British managers do you get in the PL these days anyway. Think there’s only 7 at the moment - Rodgers, Moyes, Howe, Cooper, Potter, Jones and O’Neil[/quote]

There's been over 120 permanent British managers since the PL started. And, even 7 is more than a third of the PL. It's not like you're limited to one British manager a season or something.

Given they explained why they weren't including, say Chris Ramsay or Chris Hughton, I think that bit was very carefully fact-checked! Not sure about the VP resigning fact-check though.

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Re: Nice Paul Ince interview in the Telegraph

by Snowflake Royal » 27 Jan 2023 18:19

Sutekh It says “They were in trouble and told him that manager Veljko Paunovic was resigning” I thought VP was sacked.

Also, helping to give the article proper MSM credibility, is the lack of fact checking from Paul as he is neither the first nor only black manager in the Premier League.

Yeah that stood out as utter nonsense.


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