England - the future....

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6ft Kerplunk
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Re: England - the future....

by 6ft Kerplunk » 31 Mar 2021 12:37

Sanguine As an aside, Bobby Robson - obviously impossible to dislike as a man, Robson is a legend, but I think his record at England manager gets some rose-tinted specs just because Italia '90 was a brilliant World Cup on the whole. He was lucky to keep his job after the Euro '88 shamble, and we qualified for that semi-final with a 1-0 win over Egypt, a David Platt worldie, and a Gary Lineker dive.

World Cup quarter final in 86 and semi final in 90 is better any England manager other than Ramsey winning it. With a bit of luck we could've won both of those matches and it wasn't like we had a team of world class players.

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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 31 Mar 2021 12:42

6ft Kerplunk
Sanguine As an aside, Bobby Robson - obviously impossible to dislike as a man, Robson is a legend, but I think his record at England manager gets some rose-tinted specs just because Italia '90 was a brilliant World Cup on the whole. He was lucky to keep his job after the Euro '88 shamble, and we qualified for that semi-final with a 1-0 win over Egypt, a David Platt worldie, and a Gary Lineker dive.

World Cup quarter final in 86 and semi final in 90 is better any England manager other than Ramsey winning it. With a bit of luck we could've won both of those matches and it wasn't like we had a team of world class players.


Sure, but I'm applying the 'look behind the stats' approach that seems to dog Southgate's time as manager. His WC record is only better than other managers because he was lucky to get a chance to go a second time.

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Re: England - the future....

by Sutekh » 31 Mar 2021 13:21

Sanguine Just because.

Managerial win rates since Alf Ramsay.

Capello 66.7%
Southgate 60.8%
Hoddle 60.7%
Greenwood 60.0%
Eriksson 59.7%
Hodgson 58.9%
McClaren 50.0%
Robson 49.5%
Revie 48.3%
Venables 47.8%
Taylor 47.5%
Keegan 38.9%

I know some of the numbers are close, but Southgate currently has the second best win rate as manager since Alf Ramsay. Lots of caveats and quirks in the numbers of course - for example that Venables' England only lost once (to Brazil), and his record didn't get 'padded' by any qualifying campaigns, as we entered the '96 Euros has hosts, or that Capello stands head and shoulders above the rest (in terms of win rate) with only a couple of actual notable wins (including in Germany) during his entire tenure.

But it puts Southgate in some perspective. Do we want results, or do we want to play pretty football (Keegan's side)? We want both, of course, but we need to be pragmatic in that respect.

As an aside, Bobby Robson - obviously impossible to dislike as a man, Robson is a legend, but I think his record at England manager gets some rose-tinted specs just because Italia '90 was a brilliant World Cup on the whole. He was lucky to keep his job after the Euro '88 shamble, and we qualified for that semi-final with a 1-0 win over Egypt, a David Platt worldie, and a Gary Lineker dive.


What are those stats for the games that really matter ie. games in the actual finals tournaments only, that would even it out a little by removing the irrelevent friendlies and the these days largely pointless qualifying games.

As to Mr Robson, he had some great players at that time, can’t help but think the likes of Beardsley, Gascoigne, Lineker, Barnes, Butcher and Shilton would be all ahead of any of the current England squad if they were in their prime now.

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Re: England - the future....

by NathStPaul » 31 Mar 2021 13:31

Sutekh
Sanguine Just because.

Managerial win rates since Alf Ramsay.

Capello 66.7%
Southgate 60.8%
Hoddle 60.7%
Greenwood 60.0%
Eriksson 59.7%
Hodgson 58.9%
McClaren 50.0%
Robson 49.5%
Revie 48.3%
Venables 47.8%
Taylor 47.5%
Keegan 38.9%

I know some of the numbers are close, but Southgate currently has the second best win rate as manager since Alf Ramsay. Lots of caveats and quirks in the numbers of course - for example that Venables' England only lost once (to Brazil), and his record didn't get 'padded' by any qualifying campaigns, as we entered the '96 Euros has hosts, or that Capello stands head and shoulders above the rest (in terms of win rate) with only a couple of actual notable wins (including in Germany) during his entire tenure.

But it puts Southgate in some perspective. Do we want results, or do we want to play pretty football (Keegan's side)? We want both, of course, but we need to be pragmatic in that respect.

As an aside, Bobby Robson - obviously impossible to dislike as a man, Robson is a legend, but I think his record at England manager gets some rose-tinted specs just because Italia '90 was a brilliant World Cup on the whole. He was lucky to keep his job after the Euro '88 shamble, and we qualified for that semi-final with a 1-0 win over Egypt, a David Platt worldie, and a Gary Lineker dive.


What are those stats for the games that really matter ie. games in the actual finals tournaments only, that would even it out a little by removing the irrelevent friendlies and the these days largely pointless qualifying games.

As to Mr Robson, he had some great players at that time, can’t help but think the likes of Beardsley, Gascoigne, Lineker, Barnes, Butcher and Shilton would be all ahead of any of the current England squad if they were in their prime now.

Shilton? I would argue the squads under Robson would have been much improved had we had a better goalkeeper, never rated him.

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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 31 Mar 2021 13:45

NathStPaul Shilton? I would argue the squads under Robson would have been much improved had we had a better goalkeeper, never rated him.


Chris Woods. :(
The man who overlapped both Shilton and Seaman, and who really should have got more than his 43 caps. Woods has the highest clean sheet rate (61%) of any England keeper with the exception of Peter Bonetti, albeit Bonetti only played 7 times, as Bank's understudy. Shilton's number is 52%, which is pretty middling, but behind Hart, Seaman and Martyn.

David James is statistically one of England's worst keepers, with just 21 clean sheets in 53 games (40%).

http://www.englandfootballonline.com/Te ... nShts.html

Another fun* fact from the same page. Shilton, Hart, Seaman, Banks, Clemence, Robinson, Martyn, Hardy, Foster, George, Baddeley, Wright - all England keepers to have saved a penalty in normal time for England, and yet no England keeper has saved two in their career.


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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 31 Mar 2021 14:13

Not sure if this thread was specifically for the first team but Boothroyd's comments were slightly strange, and a real sign he's feeling the pressure

He described the England U21 manager position as "utterly impossible" - and given (well, it's likely) that he's failed in two consecutive tournaments, that may well be the end of him - Lampard already being talked about for that role

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Re: England - the future....

by WestYorksRoyal » 31 Mar 2021 14:18

URZZZZ Not sure if this thread was specifically for the first team but Boothroyd's comments were slightly strange, and a real sign he's feeling the pressure

He described the England U21 manager position as "utterly impossible" - and given (well, it's likely) that he's failed in two consecutive tournaments, that may well be the end of him - Lampard already being talked about for that role

Seeing your best players picked for the seniors is a challenge all U21 bosses before him have had, and one all his current peers have too. It's not like France let Mbappe drop down a level to help their U21s team. Truth is Boothroyd has done a poor job and is now looking for excuses instead of being self aware. Clearly his time should be up.

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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 31 Mar 2021 14:22

WestYorksRoyal
URZZZZ Not sure if this thread was specifically for the first team but Boothroyd's comments were slightly strange, and a real sign he's feeling the pressure

He described the England U21 manager position as "utterly impossible" - and given (well, it's likely) that he's failed in two consecutive tournaments, that may well be the end of him - Lampard already being talked about for that role

Seeing your best players picked for the seniors is a challenge all U21 bosses before him have had, and one all his current peers have too. It's not like France let Mbappe drop down a level to help their U21s team. Truth is Boothroyd has done a poor job and is now looking for excuses instead of being self aware. Clearly his time should be up.


Exactly - and they still have some decent players in the squad regardless - many of which ply their trade in the Prem

Strangely enough though - they can still go through even with 0 points from their first two games - but even if they do scrape through, it wouldn't be on merit and you'd expect them to be knocked out straight after

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Re: England - the future....

by Simmops » 31 Mar 2021 14:51

URZZZZ
WestYorksRoyal
URZZZZ Not sure if this thread was specifically for the first team but Boothroyd's comments were slightly strange, and a real sign he's feeling the pressure

He described the England U21 manager position as "utterly impossible" - and given (well, it's likely) that he's failed in two consecutive tournaments, that may well be the end of him - Lampard already being talked about for that role

Seeing your best players picked for the seniors is a challenge all U21 bosses before him have had, and one all his current peers have too. It's not like France let Mbappe drop down a level to help their U21s team. Truth is Boothroyd has done a poor job and is now looking for excuses instead of being self aware. Clearly his time should be up.


Exactly - and they still have some decent players in the squad regardless - many of which ply their trade in the Prem

Strangely enough though - they can still go through even with 0 points from their first two games - but even if they do scrape through, it wouldn't be on merit and you'd expect them to be knocked out straight after


Decent players?

The squad is unbelievable on paper in terms of depth (typical England). And even the last tournament, was EVEN BETTER!

Players for this tournament that pretty regularly play for a (loan) or the first team:

Goalkeepers: Josef Bursik (Stoke City), Josh Griffiths (Cheltenham Town, loan from West Bromwich Albion), Aaron Ramsdale (Sheffield United)

Defenders: Max Aarons (Norwich City), Ben Godfrey (Everton), Marc Guehi (Swansea City, loan from Chelsea), Lloyd Kelly (AFC Bournemouth), Ryan Sessegnon (Hoffenheim, loan from Tottenham Hotspur),

Midfielders: Todd Cantwell (Norwich City), Tom Davies (Everton), Ebere Eze (Crystal Palace), Conor Gallagher (West Bromwich Albion, loan from Chelsea), Curtis Jones (Liverpool), Dwight McNeil (Burnley)

Attackers: Noni Madueke (PSV Eindhoven), Emile Smith Rowe (Arsenal)

Players who play sparingly or semi regular:

Steven Sessegnon (Bristol City, loan from Fulham), Japhet Tanganga (Tottenham Hotspur), Ben Wilmot (Watford), Oliver Skipp (Norwich City, loan from Tottenham Hotspur), Rhian Brewster (Sheffield United), Callum Hudson-Odoi (Chelsea), Eddie Nketiah (Arsenal)


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Re: England - the future....

by Simmops » 31 Mar 2021 14:54

The last 2019 squad we had included:

Dean Henderson, Wan-Bissaka, Tomori, Maddison, Foden, Choudhary, Barnes, Mount, Gibbs-White, Demari Gray, Calvert-Lewin, Abraham, Solanke

Finished with 1 point :|

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Re: England - the future....

by 6ft Kerplunk » 31 Mar 2021 15:16

Sanguine
NathStPaul Shilton? I would argue the squads under Robson would have been much improved had we had a better goalkeeper, never rated him.


Chris Woods. :(
The man who overlapped both Shilton and Seaman, and who really should have got more than his 43 caps. Woods has the highest clean sheet rate (61%) of any England keeper with the exception of Peter Bonetti, albeit Bonetti only played 7 times, as Bank's understudy. Shilton's number is 52%, which is pretty middling, but behind Hart, Seaman and Martyn.

David James is statistically one of England's worst keepers, with just 21 clean sheets in 53 games (40%).

http://www.englandfootballonline.com/Te ... nShts.html

Another fun* fact from the same page. Shilton, Hart, Seaman, Banks, Clemence, Robinson, Martyn, Hardy, Foster, George, Baddeley, Wright - all England keepers to have saved a penalty in normal time for England, and yet no England keeper has saved two in their career.

Interesting about Woods as I didn't think he had as many caps as that and never looked that good in an England shirt. Is there a break down of how many competitive matches he played in?
I'd also argue that Shilton was way past his best by the '86 World Cup and it was a shame we didn't have another better option.

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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 31 Mar 2021 15:24

18 competitive games, of which 14 qualifiers, and 4 Euro Championships finals matches (1 in '88 and 3 in '92).

Woods' longest span as first choice was about a year, from the start of the '92 Euro finals, through to our catastrophic 2-0 defeat to the USA, which would prove to be his final cap.
Last edited by Sanguine on 31 Mar 2021 15:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 31 Mar 2021 15:26

Simmops The last 2019 squad we had included:

Dean Henderson, Wan-Bissaka, Tomori, Maddison, Foden, Choudhary, Barnes, Mount, Gibbs-White, Demari Gray, Calvert-Lewin, Abraham, Solanke

Finished with 1 point :|


Yep, that is a strong squad that really should/could have achieved more

Although looking back at Southgate's last World Cup as U21 manager, doesn't look like he fared too much better


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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 31 Mar 2021 19:52

Last minute Croatia consolation sends them through at the expense of us - another disappointing campaign overall and it’s hard not to look at it being the end of Boothroyd

On a separate note, the Portuguese U21’s look talented, can see them going all the way, haven’t conceded yet

I’d presume the knockouts are being played at a later date

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Re: England - the future....

by bcubed » 31 Mar 2021 21:06

Was just thinking how good Stones looked this evening.....

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Re: England - the future....

by BR0B0T » 31 Mar 2021 21:52

Ending with a back 5 and two defensive mids

Clean sheets and set-pieces

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Re: England - the future....

by Stranded » 31 Mar 2021 21:52

URZZZZ Last minute Croatia consolation sends them through at the expense of us - another disappointing campaign overall and it’s hard not to look at it being the end of Boothroyd

On a separate note, the Portuguese U21’s look talented, can see them going all the way, haven’t conceded yet

I’d presume the knockouts are being played at a later date


Knockouts being played in the run up to the Euros. Final is about the 8th June I think.

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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 01 Apr 2021 09:01

We seem to be developing a habit of losing leads - off the top of my head Colombia and Croatia at the World Cup, Nations League against Spain, Euro qualifying in the Czech Rep, and now vs. Poland last night.

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Re: England - the future....

by 6ft Kerplunk » 01 Apr 2021 10:07

URZZZZ Last minute Croatia consolation sends them through at the expense of us - another disappointing campaign overall and it’s hard not to look at it being the end of Boothroyd

It was some goal to snatch qualification too, but felt almost inevitable once that 5 mins of added time was shown.

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Re: England - the future....

by URZZZZ » 01 Apr 2021 11:05

6ft Kerplunk
URZZZZ Last minute Croatia consolation sends them through at the expense of us - another disappointing campaign overall and it’s hard not to look at it being the end of Boothroyd

It was some goal to snatch qualification too, but felt almost inevitable once that 5 mins of added time was shown.


Yep, bench seemed pretty light and seemed to be picking up a few niggles late on

Believe we had a fair few players who needed to isolate or something along those lines which explains only having 7 players available on the bench

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