What would you have done different?

[Extended-Phenotype]

No, not regardless. Regarding England, the vets have done f/ck all to warrant any confidence in them doing better this year.

apart from be better, generally

better is better, no matter what competition its in

People perform differently in different competitions and have different form in different teams.

[melonhead]

but the better players will still be better players

[Extended-Phenotype]

but the better players will still be better players

Well, no they wouldn't. That's the point.

[Hoop Blah]

but the better players will still be better players

The best team isn't necessarily made up of the best players.

Cole is an interesting one. He really was excellent for England and, after Baines pretty average performances, there is an argument that taking Cole would've worked in our favour but after playing so few games over the last 6 months or so that's a bit of a leap of faith.

[melonhead]

but the better players will still be better players

Well, no they wouldn't. That's the point.

a silly wrong point

[melonhead]

but the better players will still be better players

The best team isn't necessarily made up of the best players.

Cole is an interesting one. He really was excellent for England and, after Baines pretty average performances, there is an argument that taking Cole would've worked in our favour but after playing so few games over the last 6 months or so that's a bit of a leap of faith.

didnt play for chelsea all season, but looked totally up to speed when thrown into the champions league, which is what convinced me he should have gone.

like i said-totally understandable that he was left though, for the reasons you mentioned


no the best team isnt made up of all the best players, and im not saying their inclusion WOULD have made the difference. im saying I THINK it would have made the difference, with the attacking flair and pace of the younglings(and lallana) coupled with more defensive strength and experience of cole and terry. since the errors that led to conceding goals were the kinds of things that cole and terry would have coped with better, being better players.
im all for blooding exciting young attacking players. i just think the defence is where you need the real grit and know how heyd have brought.

[Extended-Phenotype]

but the better players will still be better players

Well, no they wouldn't. That's the point.

a silly wrong point

Form is silly and wrong to consider?

[melonhead]

Well, no they wouldn't. That's the point.

a silly wrong point

Form is silly and wrong to consider?

form from 4 years ago?
yes.

this mythical ability to "play in tournaments" or lack of it
and a players previous failures at previous tournaments
should come nowhere near your thinking on selection.

the better player is the better player, end of.
that a better player failed 4 years ago, (in a team that failed, led by a failure of a manager) should never mean you now bring in a worse player, on the made up basis that he may have the mythical ability to "play in a tournament", that it is now "proven" that the previous player did not have.

Form over the previous season - yes.
if the player has achieved more, and looked better than the previous player during the season, and in the months and weeks leading up to the tournament for his club, he'll get some appearances as sub or in friendlies, and if in those he looks the equal or better of the previous player, then that player can now be considered the better player and included in the squad ahead of the previous player.that sure as hell didnt with shaw.

the only justification for baines/shaw was if we were going into a system where flying attacking full backs was key
and judging by how we played, and set up for the group games, this did not look as though it was the case.



like i said- i understand why cole wasnt taken- as he hadnt played for his club much until the end of the season.
i just think it was the wrong decision, backed up both by his performances in his late games for chelsea, and by what happened in brazil with baines



imo

[Extended-Phenotype]

Plenty of players out there who’s form for club is not reflective of their form for country, lots of examples of either dichotomy (club>country, club<country). Lots of examples of club<country players being picked for that very reason and doing well, too.

Also lots of examples of ‘better’ players being overlooked for the ‘right’ players, too.

Players regularly regarded as in brilliant form for clubs, rocking up to an England game and playing like a gonad in a pattern repeated over a decade, two years ago, 4 years ago, 6, years ago, 8 years ago, 10 years ago - probably shouldn't be regarded as "players who would have made a difference" this time around.

Not turned it on before, no reason to believe they would have this time. Better players frequently play worse than average players on the international stage.

Enough reasoning there for me to disagree.

[No Fixed Abode]

Let's be honest. The main problem is coaching from an early age. Technically and mentally, we're not good enough.

Prime example. I recall several occasions during the three England games where we hoofed it, or put it in to touch, to not give the ball away in open play. Brazil, (although not the best Brazilian team we've ever seen) on the other hand, their players are taught from a young age to 'play' the ball from the back and find the team mate and only as a very last resort will they put it in to touch. You can see from the Brazilian's crowd reaction, they whistle when a team puts it in to touch.

Yes - there are perhaps times when you have to do it, but our philosophy on the game is outdated and our players fear too much reprisal from the British press. None of them want to be 'the fall guy'. So individually, if a player comes through an England game without having made a 'major' error and aren't slated by the press they're happy. It won't hurt their club career.

[melonhead]

Players regularly regarded as in brilliant form for clubs, rocking up to an England game and playing like a gonad in a pattern repeated over a decade, two years ago, 4 years ago, 6, years ago, 8 years ago, 10 years ago - probably shouldn't be regarded as "players who would have made a difference" this time around.

.

in no way does that ever describe cole as englands left back though, which is who im talking about.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Players regularly regarded as in brilliant form for clubs, rocking up to an England game and playing like a gonad in a pattern repeated over a decade, two years ago, 4 years ago, 6, years ago, 8 years ago, 10 years ago - probably shouldn't be regarded as "players who would have made a difference" this time around.

.

in no way does that ever describe cole as englands left back though, which is who im talking about.

We agreed about Cole about 9 pages ago. Your head is full of fog.

[melonhead]

youre the one still arguing.




im just staing my point, again and again

[Extended-Phenotype]

Fog head. You don't know what you are doing anymore.

[Handsome Man]

The senior players sense it if you doubt yourself and, if they sense a weakness, their natural instinct is to see if you can push a player down now and again to see if they can come back up. There was not a chance of that happening with Pogba. I remember Paul Scholes kicking the living daylights out of him in every single training session, every day. But he earned our respect by never moaning, never shouting and never making a fuss. He always wanted the ball still and that kind of attitude has helped him progress.

This seems like another reason why England are utterly shit, if this is typical of how bright young talent is treated by veterans who under-achieved during their international career.

[Whatevs]

The senior players sense it if you doubt yourself and, if they sense a weakness, their natural instinct is to see if you can push a player down now and again to see if they can come back up. There was not a chance of that happening with Pogba. I remember Paul Scholes kicking the living daylights out of him in every single training session, every day. But he earned our respect by never moaning, never shouting and never making a fuss. He always wanted the ball still and that kind of attitude has helped him progress.

This seems like another reason why England are utterly shit, if this is typical of how bright young talent is treated by veterans who under-achieved during their international career.

but won everything at club level...

[6ft Kerplunk]

How could Ferdinand tell if Scholes was kicking the living daylights out of Pogba or just doing his normal atttempts tackling?

[Extended-Phenotype]

A seismograph.

[bcubed]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/10945530/England-wont-win-World-Cup-again-because-too-many-foreigners-in-Premier-League-says-Germany-coach.html

Not sure blaming the number of England players in the Prem is the biggest factor but Interesting comment about goalkeepers role