Nations League & Friendlies

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URZZZZ
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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by URZZZZ » 10 Jun 2019 01:38

Zip FFS give it time. VAR is the way forward, Too many mistakes are made in games by match officials. So what if players celebrate a goal and it’s then scratched off because there’s been a foul. As long as VAR means the right decisions are being made more than pre VAR then it’s worth it.


But their job is to officiate a game of football...if they can't do it - they shouldn't be in that profession should they?

Ya know someone will get badly hurt one day with the "new offside rule". Linesman's very rarely flag now even when someone is clearly miles off because they have the protection of VAR. It's a load of rubbish

And it will get to the point where people won't be able to celebrate a goal in case of a foul that may have occurred 3 minutes beforehand

It's also painfully slow. It's been used for over a year now and it just isn't quick enough. And it still doesn't eliminate major talking points. Is it/is it not handball. Can you physically PROVE something is handball as opposed to an offside/goal line technology

So all in all, maybe take into account both sides of the argument before jumping in with criticism. I can accept both sides (lots of money now in the game - more emphasis on the officials having to make the right decisions etc...). But it's been here for over a year, they're still making wrong decisions, it's slow, IMO reducing the emotion of the game and how many other professions get the privilege of "extra video technology". Why should football get that? That's why I'm hugely against VAR

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Hendo
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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by Hendo » 10 Jun 2019 09:25

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Yeah, I mean players like Jadon Sancho and Declan Rice have been picked based on their names. Not anything to do with them playing exceptionally well for their clubs


Dier?
Delph?
Lingard?
Rashford?
Stones?
Barkley?

Four of those have barely played, others are on horrific form.


Pick replacements for them then, although I’ll give you Delph as I don’t see what he brings.


Couldn't do it then? Cool.

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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by Zip » 10 Jun 2019 10:22

URZZZZ
Zip FFS give it time. VAR is the way forward, Too many mistakes are made in games by match officials. So what if players celebrate a goal and it’s then scratched off because there’s been a foul. As long as VAR means the right decisions are being made more than pre VAR then it’s worth it.


But their job is to officiate a game of football...if they can't do it - they shouldn't be in that profession should they?

Ya know someone will get badly hurt one day with the "new offside rule". Linesman's very rarely flag now even when someone is clearly miles off because they have the protection of VAR. It's a load of rubbish

And it will get to the point where people won't be able to celebrate a goal in case of a foul that may have occurred 3 minutes beforehand

It's also painfully slow. It's been used for over a year now and it just isn't quick enough. And it still doesn't eliminate major talking points. Is it/is it not handball. Can you physically PROVE something is handball as opposed to an offside/goal line technology

So all in all, maybe take into account both sides of the argument before jumping in with criticism. I can accept both sides (lots of money now in the game - more emphasis on the officials having to make the right decisions etc...). But it's been here for over a year, they're still making wrong decisions, it's slow, IMO reducing the emotion of the game and how many other professions get the privilege of "extra video technology". Why should football get that? That's why I'm hugely against VAR


VAR is far from perfect. I see that but let’s give it a decent amount of time before we completely write it off. A year really isn’t that long especially as it’s been used sparingly to date. The game is so fast these days with too much cheating going on that it’s inevitable match officials get it wrong so often.

We see technology working in rugby, cricket and tennis. It does slow the game down but in my mind it’s worth it if the correct decision is reached.

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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by URZZZZ » 10 Jun 2019 10:26

Hendo
Hendo
URZZZZ
Dier?
Delph?
Lingard?
Rashford?
Stones?
Barkley?

Four of those have barely played, others are on horrific form.


Pick replacements for them then, although I’ll give you Delph as I don’t see what he brings.


Couldn't do it then? Cool.


I did suggest a few in another post, fair enough if you didn’t read through the thread. As CB’s, Keane, Tarkowski and Mee are good defenders and have been playing every week rather than Stones who has played about 30 minutes in two months

Noble and Maddison have both had good seasons. They’ve played more regularly than Barkley, Delph and Dier, and have put in consistent high levels

I also prefer my natural wingers, rather than Jesse “non existent” Lingard. Redmond, Townsend etc...maybe not as starters but as a plan B, rather than just continuously bringing on like for like

Granted up front is more difficult but Wilson is a better player than Rashford - you even see United fans beginning to question Rashford now

Other players worth mentioning are AWB and James Ward Prowse

Also like Winks and Lallana but that’d be hypocritical of me considering they’ve had no game time!

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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by URZZZZ » 10 Jun 2019 10:32

Zip
URZZZZ
Zip FFS give it time. VAR is the way forward, Too many mistakes are made in games by match officials. So what if players celebrate a goal and it’s then scratched off because there’s been a foul. As long as VAR means the right decisions are being made more than pre VAR then it’s worth it.


But their job is to officiate a game of football...if they can't do it - they shouldn't be in that profession should they?

Ya know someone will get badly hurt one day with the "new offside rule". Linesman's very rarely flag now even when someone is clearly miles off because they have the protection of VAR. It's a load of rubbish

And it will get to the point where people won't be able to celebrate a goal in case of a foul that may have occurred 3 minutes beforehand

It's also painfully slow. It's been used for over a year now and it just isn't quick enough. And it still doesn't eliminate major talking points. Is it/is it not handball. Can you physically PROVE something is handball as opposed to an offside/goal line technology

So all in all, maybe take into account both sides of the argument before jumping in with criticism. I can accept both sides (lots of money now in the game - more emphasis on the officials having to make the right decisions etc...). But it's been here for over a year, they're still making wrong decisions, it's slow, IMO reducing the emotion of the game and how many other professions get the privilege of "extra video technology". Why should football get that? That's why I'm hugely against VAR


VAR is far from perfect. I see that but let’s give it a decent amount of time before we completely write it off. A year really isn’t that long especially as it’s been used sparingly to date. The game is so fast these days with too much cheating going on that it’s inevitable match officials get it wrong so often.

We see technology working in rugby, cricket and tennis. It does slow the game down but in my mind it’s worth it if the correct decision is reached.


Yup. In rugby, you can hear what the ref is saying. In tennis, you get a certain number of appeals. Wouldn’t know how it operates in cricket but both of those methods work better than the one in football, where fans are kept in the dark for up to 5 minutes


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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by Zip » 10 Jun 2019 11:09

URZZZZ
Zip
URZZZZ
But their job is to officiate a game of football...if they can't do it - they shouldn't be in that profession should they?

Ya know someone will get badly hurt one day with the "new offside rule". Linesman's very rarely flag now even when someone is clearly miles off because they have the protection of VAR. It's a load of rubbish

And it will get to the point where people won't be able to celebrate a goal in case of a foul that may have occurred 3 minutes beforehand

It's also painfully slow. It's been used for over a year now and it just isn't quick enough. And it still doesn't eliminate major talking points. Is it/is it not handball. Can you physically PROVE something is handball as opposed to an offside/goal line technology

So all in all, maybe take into account both sides of the argument before jumping in with criticism. I can accept both sides (lots of money now in the game - more emphasis on the officials having to make the right decisions etc...). But it's been here for over a year, they're still making wrong decisions, it's slow, IMO reducing the emotion of the game and how many other professions get the privilege of "extra video technology". Why should football get that? That's why I'm hugely against VAR


VAR is far from perfect. I see that but let’s give it a decent amount of time before we completely write it off. A year really isn’t that long especially as it’s been used sparingly to date. The game is so fast these days with too much cheating going on that it’s inevitable match officials get it wrong so often.

We see technology working in rugby, cricket and tennis. It does slow the game down but in my mind it’s worth it if the correct decision is reached.


Yup. In rugby, you can hear what the ref is saying. In tennis, you get a certain number of appeals. Wouldn’t know how it operates in cricket but both of those methods work better than the one in football, where fans are kept in the dark for up to 5 minutes


Yes and they need to develop it so that fans can here what is being communicated. They need to learn from rugby although some decisions in that sport can take an absolute age to be reached but I’d rather have that delay if it increases the likelihood of a fair decision.

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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by Hendo » 10 Jun 2019 11:17

URZZZZ
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Pick replacements for them then, although I’ll give you Delph as I don’t see what he brings.


Couldn't do it then? Cool.


I did suggest a few in another post, fair enough if you didn’t read through the thread. As CB’s, Keane, Tarkowski and Mee are good defenders and have been playing every week rather than Stones who has played about 30 minutes in two months

Noble and Maddison have both had good seasons. They’ve played more regularly than Barkley, Delph and Dier, and have put in consistent high levels

I also prefer my natural wingers, rather than Jesse “non existent” Lingard. Redmond, Townsend etc...maybe not as starters but as a plan B, rather than just continuously bringing on like for like

Granted up front is more difficult but Wilson is a better player than Rashford - you even see United fans beginning to question Rashford now

Other players worth mentioning are AWB and James Ward Prowse

Also like Winks and Lallana but that’d be hypocritical of me considering they’ve had no game time!


Will give you Keane, but not too sure on the others in defense.

Noble, come on? He is 32 now and is not the future of the squad, the same as Delph, but yes Maddison should be in there.

The non-existent Lingard would've scored the winner had it not been for an incredibly tight offside call, will agree on the Redmond, wasn't he in the squad though?

Willson a better player than Rashford? No chance, not having that. The kid is class and Southgate would've been slated had he not included Rashford in the squad.

AWB will be in squads soon, I am sure of it, but I don't see where JWP fits in.

Winks would be in my squad as well, but not Lallana for me, just don't see what the fuss is about with him.

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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by Sanguine » 10 Jun 2019 12:13

The continued discussions about VAR on here illustrate why, I admit, it might not work in the long-term for football. But that's not because the technology is crap, or the principles of its use, or for the most part how it is used.

Why do I support VAR? Because it can't be wrong. When I say that, I'm excepting any obvious howlers, but I've not yet seen one with VAR (i.e. defender slaps the ball away with his hand, referee reviews and doesn't penalise it).

First, VAR works for obvious decisions. Player is fouled, referee doesn't see it, consults VAR and awards the penalty. Fine. Offsides, it works fine.
Second, the decisions that require a greater degree of judgement - was the player's arm in a natural position? Did the foul start outside or inside the box? Did the attacker instigate contact? When I say VAR 'can't be wrong', what I mean is that, at absolute worst, it gives officials a second opportunity to make a subjective judgement on an incident, using all available visuals. So if you tidy up how and when VAR is called for, i.e. only when the VAR (subjectively) feels that an obvious error has occurs, then you are only improving the decision making process.

The point I am trying to make is that fans are wrong if they expect VAR to remove subjectivity from football, and wrong if they think that that is the purpose. It provides an opportunity for greater scrutiny of important decisions. And that's a good thing.

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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by stealthpapes » 10 Jun 2019 12:40

Most of the problems come from two places.

First, fans and, in particular, pundits who do not know what the rules are. Some of this might be that the rules, or the senses of priority within them, have changed. And, yeah, I think that's a valid complaint. Seemingly endless clarifications on, for example, handball and offside have muddied the water there.

Second, communication between the VAR, the ref, the players and, importantly, the fans is too slow.

Second one is easier to fix. Ignorance takes a bit more time.


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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by Ascotexgunner » 10 Jun 2019 13:45

Zip FFS give it time. VAR is the way forward, Too many mistakes are made in games by match officials. So what if players celebrate a goal and it’s then scratched off because there’s been a foul. As long as VAR means the right decisions are being made more than pre VAR then it’s worth it.


Zip mate, it got the England decision so wrong yesterday. As much as I hate to see them get the decisions there is no way that Wilson (the decent one, not the utterly useless one that plays up from for us), had enough contact on that players arm to throw him to the floor, the defender conned the ref and VAR. And I'll go back to our game at Old Trafford where united got the penalty but the first offence was offside but ignored. It appears we are now changing the rules of the game to suit VAR. Its all wrong.

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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by URZZZZ » 10 Jun 2019 14:09

Hendo
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Couldn't do it then? Cool.


I did suggest a few in another post, fair enough if you didn’t read through the thread. As CB’s, Keane, Tarkowski and Mee are good defenders and have been playing every week rather than Stones who has played about 30 minutes in two months

Noble and Maddison have both had good seasons. They’ve played more regularly than Barkley, Delph and Dier, and have put in consistent high levels

I also prefer my natural wingers, rather than Jesse “non existent” Lingard. Redmond, Townsend etc...maybe not as starters but as a plan B, rather than just continuously bringing on like for like

Granted up front is more difficult but Wilson is a better player than Rashford - you even see United fans beginning to question Rashford now

Other players worth mentioning are AWB and James Ward Prowse

Also like Winks and Lallana but that’d be hypocritical of me considering they’ve had no game time!


Will give you Keane, but not too sure on the others in defense.

Noble, come on? He is 32 now and is not the future of the squad, the same as Delph, but yes Maddison should be in there.

The non-existent Lingard would've scored the winner had it not been for an incredibly tight offside call, will agree on the Redmond, wasn't he in the squad though?

Willson a better player than Rashford? No chance, not having that. The kid is class and Southgate would've been slated had he not included Rashford in the squad.

AWB will be in squads soon, I am sure of it, but I don't see where JWP fits in.

Winks would be in my squad as well, but not Lallana for me, just don't see what the fuss is about with him.


Actually Keane was in the squad, surprised he wasn't used yesterday, but Redmond wasn't. I always rate the value of a Plan B on the bench and instead of bringing on like for like (e.g. Alli and Lingard) I'd like to see direct wingers to instil some fear into their defence if Plan A doesn't work

I rate Tarkowski and Mee highly, they seemed to have played really well past Christmas. I think they're better defenders than Stones but not suited to the style England play so fair enough

I don't think age matters personally. In friendlies, granted, that's the chance to try out the younger ones (ones for the "future"). But in games that matter, experience is still vital. Saying all that, wouldn't have him in the XI, would like to see a Rice, Henderson, Maddison trio with Loftus Cheek (when fit) from the bench and Winks covering

I just don't see it with Lingard, not sure what he's particularly good at and if he plays for Southampton or equivalent, he wouldn't be talked about (I see similarities with Walcott, hasn't got near the squad since his move to Everton)

Rashford was in some awful form at the end of the season, I'd take him in the 23 man squad, my point with him was that he shouldn't be starting as a lone striker. I know he scored and all that but thought he didn't do much else. Right now, I would rate Wilson as a better striker (2 more goals, 177 minutes per goal compared to Rashford's 252)

Right back is certainly one of our strongest positions. Our first choice last summer is now probably our 4th choice (granted he had a poor season). With Trent, Walker and AWB, we're looking strong there. JWP is unfortunate that we have a lot of midfielders, but I think Alli should be looking over his shoulder with a poor season, think he's been found out personally

Lallana is a really clever player and I think Southgate likes him, but as with JWP, we have too many options and he gets too many injuries really to stand a chance. Could apply to Winks as well

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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by bcubed » 10 Jun 2019 18:12

stealthpapes Most of the problems come from two places.

First, fans and, in particular, pundits who do not know what the rules are. Some of this might be that the rules, or the senses of priority within them, have changed. And, yeah, I think that's a valid complaint. Seemingly endless clarifications on, for example, handball and offside have muddied the water there.

Second, communication between the VAR, the ref, the players and, importantly, the fans is too slow.

Second one is easier to fix. Ignorance takes a bit more time.
.

Good points but improving communication especially with fans should help with understanding the nuances of the laws.

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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by Snowflake Royal » 11 Jun 2019 17:54

URZZZZ
Zip
URZZZZ
But their job is to officiate a game of football...if they can't do it - they shouldn't be in that profession should they?

Ya know someone will get badly hurt one day with the "new offside rule". Linesman's very rarely flag now even when someone is clearly miles off because they have the protection of VAR. It's a load of rubbish

And it will get to the point where people won't be able to celebrate a goal in case of a foul that may have occurred 3 minutes beforehand

It's also painfully slow. It's been used for over a year now and it just isn't quick enough. And it still doesn't eliminate major talking points. Is it/is it not handball. Can you physically PROVE something is handball as opposed to an offside/goal line technology

So all in all, maybe take into account both sides of the argument before jumping in with criticism. I can accept both sides (lots of money now in the game - more emphasis on the officials having to make the right decisions etc...). But it's been here for over a year, they're still making wrong decisions, it's slow, IMO reducing the emotion of the game and how many other professions get the privilege of "extra video technology". Why should football get that? That's why I'm hugely against VAR


VAR is far from perfect. I see that but let’s give it a decent amount of time before we completely write it off. A year really isn’t that long especially as it’s been used sparingly to date. The game is so fast these days with too much cheating going on that it’s inevitable match officials get it wrong so often.

We see technology working in rugby, cricket and tennis. It does slow the game down but in my mind it’s worth it if the correct decision is reached.


Yup. In rugby, you can hear what the ref is saying. In tennis, you get a certain number of appeals. Wouldn’t know how it operates in cricket but both of those methods work better than the one in football, where fans are kept in the dark for up to 5 minutes

Why should fans be kept informed?

They aren't about any other decision. The ref signals if VAR is involved. If the game has stopped it's oxf*rd obvious what's going on. You don't get an anouncement if the ref consults with the lino.


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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by bcubed » 11 Jun 2019 18:27

Isn’t the point that fans should be better informed by officials generally ?
As in rugby or American football.

It would help enjoyment of the game (and maybe understanding of the rules, as mentioned above) and would help reduce the opportunity for frustration.

Football seems to thrive on ways to frustrate the paying fan. As a simple example, why not for instance have a clock at each stadium which is stopped when the ref wants it, as in rugby and American football. Then the ridiculous scenario when the board is held up would go - Where has that 5 minutes come from? Only 2 minutes?!! Etc. Fans go mental at this and directly related, when subs are made and when players dawdle leaving the field and it’s just so unnecessary.

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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by URZZZZ » 12 Jun 2019 00:55

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VAR is far from perfect. I see that but let’s give it a decent amount of time before we completely write it off. A year really isn’t that long especially as it’s been used sparingly to date. The game is so fast these days with too much cheating going on that it’s inevitable match officials get it wrong so often.

We see technology working in rugby, cricket and tennis. It does slow the game down but in my mind it’s worth it if the correct decision is reached.


Yup. In rugby, you can hear what the ref is saying. In tennis, you get a certain number of appeals. Wouldn’t know how it operates in cricket but both of those methods work better than the one in football, where fans are kept in the dark for up to 5 minutes

Why should fans be kept informed?

They aren't about any other decision. The ref signals if VAR is involved. If the game has stopped it's oxf*rd obvious what's going on. You don't get an anouncement if the ref consults with the lino.


Because other decisions are generally made on the spot very quickly. VAR can take a long time for them to conclude a decision and you're leaving fans in the lurch for up to 5 minutes at occasions

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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by Snowflake Royal » 12 Jun 2019 07:04

Like I said. It's obvious VAR is being used.

There are problems with VAR but they aren't comms with fans. They're when it's used and when it isn't, and whether the ref makes the final call or not.

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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by bcubed » 12 Jun 2019 11:05

URZZZZ
Snowflake Royal
URZZZZ
Yup. In rugby, you can hear what the ref is saying. In tennis, you get a certain number of appeals. Wouldn’t know how it operates in cricket but both of those methods work better than the one in football, where fans are kept in the dark for up to 5 minutes

Why should fans be kept informed?

They aren't about any other decision. The ref signals if VAR is involved. If the game has stopped it's oxf*rd obvious what's going on. You don't get an anouncement if the ref consults with the lino.


Because other decisions are generally made on the spot very quickly. VAR can take a long time for them to conclude a decision and you're leaving fans in the lurch for up to 5 minutes at occasions


So wasnt it your point that fans should be better informed by officials generally ?
As in rugby or American football.

See above

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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by Ascotexgunner » 12 Jun 2019 13:18

URZZZZ
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URZZZZ
Yup. In rugby, you can hear what the ref is saying. In tennis, you get a certain number of appeals. Wouldn’t know how it operates in cricket but both of those methods work better than the one in football, where fans are kept in the dark for up to 5 minutes

Why should fans be kept informed?

They aren't about any other decision. The ref signals if VAR is involved. If the game has stopped it's oxf*rd obvious what's going on. You don't get an anouncement if the ref consults with the lino.


Because other decisions are generally made on the spot very quickly. VAR can take a long time for them to conclude a decision and you're leaving fans in the lurch for up to 5 minutes at occasions


5 minutes.......perfect break for stuffing a shit load of adverts in on TV.....just a thought.
If we are not careful the game will just become a series of set plays and each play reviewed.....
Bit like american throw all. I got taken to Miami Dolphins v Tampa Bay Buccaneers when I was a kid. Never been so bored at a sporting event ever.

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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by Snowflake Royal » 12 Jun 2019 13:28

Ascotexgunner
URZZZZ
Snowflake Royal Why should fans be kept informed?

They aren't about any other decision. The ref signals if VAR is involved. If the game has stopped it's oxf*rd obvious what's going on. You don't get an anouncement if the ref consults with the lino.


Because other decisions are generally made on the spot very quickly. VAR can take a long time for them to conclude a decision and you're leaving fans in the lurch for up to 5 minutes at occasions


5 minutes.......perfect break for stuffing a shit load of adverts in on TV.....just a thought.
If we are not careful the game will just become a series of set plays and each play reviewed.....
Bit like american throw all. I got taken to Miami Dolphins v Tampa Bay Buccaneers when I was a kid. Never been so bored at a sporting event ever.

On the other hand maybe the players will stop cheating after being called on it regularly for a change.

We really need about two seasons of multiple red's and penalties a game to break the cheating cycle.

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Re: Nations League & Friendlies

by Theroyalbox » 13 Jun 2019 10:55

What a week lads, met loads of Reading fans out there too. Hope you enjoyed.

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