VAR

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URZZZZ
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Re: VAR

by URZZZZ » 05 Dec 2019 13:16

Franchise FC For me they can bin it now.

Previously at least, we could argue that the referee and linesman only get one look in real time so can be forgiven a mistake. Looking at a screen and still getting it wrong is unforgivable.

They claimed it would bring accuracy and consistency and, to be fair, the David Silva incident earlier in the season and Vardy's the other night are at least consistent to the point where no penalty was given. However, it all falls apart when Vardy is booked, Silva isn't and the Michael Keane challenge at Palace, I think, was overturned to give a penalty. All three were, to all intents and purposes, identical.

Get rid.


If you're talking about the one I think you are, it was the Keane one at Brighton which was a disgraceful decision

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Re: VAR

by Franchise FC » 05 Dec 2019 13:17

URZZZZ
Franchise FC For me they can bin it now.

Previously at least, we could argue that the referee and linesman only get one look in real time so can be forgiven a mistake. Looking at a screen and still getting it wrong is unforgivable.

They claimed it would bring accuracy and consistency and, to be fair, the David Silva incident earlier in the season and Vardy's the other night are at least consistent to the point where no penalty was given. However, it all falls apart when Vardy is booked, Silva isn't and the Michael Keane challenge at Palace, I think, was overturned to give a penalty. All three were, to all intents and purposes, identical.

Get rid.


If you're talking about the one I think you are, it was the Keane one at Brighton which was a disgraceful decision


You're right, of course, it was Brighton (senior moment, I'm afraid)

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Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 05 Dec 2019 15:44

Sanguine Where does physically touching or running in front of come into it?


Isn't that the point where in your implementation of the law you'd have the penalty retaken?

A player clearing a saved penalty from being tapped in by an attacker by virtue of their encroachment giving them a headstart to get to the ball first (or just making it more difficult by being in the way).

Or are you suggesting that we should do away with encroachment entirely?

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Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 05 Dec 2019 15:46

Hoop Blah
Sanguine Where does physically touching or running in front of come into it?


Isn't that the point where in your implementation of the law you'd have the penalty retaken?

A player clearing a saved penalty from being tapped in by an attacker by virtue of their encroachment giving them a headstart to get to the ball first (or just making it more difficult by being in the way).

Or are you suggesting that we should do away with encroachment entirely?


I'm not even sure if we are disagreeing anymore.

Clearly if a defender who has encroached clears a saved penalty (i.e. the ball rebounds to him and he clears the ball), he has gained an advantage from his encroachment, and the kick should be retaken.

I am simply saying that if, for example, a goalkeeper tips a penalty around the post, no advantage has been gained from any encroachment by defenders, and so should not be penalised.

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Re: VAR

by URZZZZ » 05 Dec 2019 18:47

Sanguine
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Sanguine Where does physically touching or running in front of come into it?


Isn't that the point where in your implementation of the law you'd have the penalty retaken?

A player clearing a saved penalty from being tapped in by an attacker by virtue of their encroachment giving them a headstart to get to the ball first (or just making it more difficult by being in the way).

Or are you suggesting that we should do away with encroachment entirely?


I'm not even sure if we are disagreeing anymore.

Clearly if a defender who has encroached clears a saved penalty (i.e. the ball rebounds to him and he clears the ball), he has gained an advantage from his encroachment, and the kick should be retaken.

I am simply saying that if, for example, a goalkeeper tips a penalty around the post, no advantage has been gained from any encroachment by defenders, and so should not be penalised.


It's irrelevant though. According to the FA website, any encroachment by any defending player leads to a retake if it doesn't go in. Ultimately a law is a law, and even though it has no direct impact upon the player scoring/missing the penalty, players should be able to respect the laws that are set


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Re: VAR

by Franchise FC » 05 Dec 2019 21:00

And again.
Sheffield Utd players stop completely because of linesman. Play the whistle, I know, but it’s just another shambles

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Re: VAR

by URZZZZ » 05 Dec 2019 21:19

Franchise FC And again.
Sheffield Utd players stop completely because of linesman. Play the whistle, I know, but it’s just another shambles


To be honest, I really can’t stand VAR but that’s down to the players 100%. It’s schoolboy stuff not to play to the whistle

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Re: VAR

by Franchise FC » 05 Dec 2019 21:33

URZZZZ
Franchise FC And again.
Sheffield Utd players stop completely because of linesman. Play the whistle, I know, but it’s just another shambles


To be honest, I really can’t stand VAR but that’s down to the players 100%. It’s schoolboy stuff not to play to the whistle

Guess so, but still a nonsense

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John Madejski's Wallet
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Re: VAR

by John Madejski's Wallet » 05 Dec 2019 23:51

Can we just get rid of linos now and be done with it.

There is no point having a linesman now. None at all. He has to keep his flag down in any tight situation to avoid this kind of thing happening, so may as well not be there.

Can't be far off not needing refs either.

At least that way we get a VAR that works


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Re: VAR

by Franchise FC » 06 Dec 2019 07:34

John Madejski's Wallet Can we just get rid of linos now and be done with it.

There is no point having a linesman now. None at all. He has to keep his flag down in any tight situation to avoid this kind of thing happening, so may as well not be there.

Can't be far off not needing refs either.

At least that way we get a VAR that works

That last bit is still a leap from where we are with VAR.

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Re: VAR

by Stranded » 06 Dec 2019 09:07

URZZZZ
Franchise FC And again.
Sheffield Utd players stop completely because of linesman. Play the whistle, I know, but it’s just another shambles


To be honest, I really can’t stand VAR but that’s down to the players 100%. It’s schoolboy stuff not to play to the whistle


Yep not a VAR thing but can understand why players stopped when you actually see a flag go up - they are still conditioned that once the flag is up you stop - most refs would have blown once the flag is up and even waving play on, it's pretty much too late as Shelvey has the advantage.

Errors all round really last night but surprisingly not with VAR - though of course if VAR didn't exist, it wouldn't have happened.

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Re: VAR

by Hendo » 06 Dec 2019 09:14

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URZZZZ
Franchise FC And again.
Sheffield Utd players stop completely because of linesman. Play the whistle, I know, but it’s just another shambles


To be honest, I really can’t stand VAR but that’s down to the players 100%. It’s schoolboy stuff not to play to the whistle


Yep not a VAR thing but can understand why players stopped when you actually see a flag go up - they are still conditioned that once the flag is up you stop - most refs would have blown once the flag is up and even waving play on, it's pretty much too late as Shelvey has the advantage.

Errors all round really last night but surprisingly not with VAR - though of course if VAR didn't exist, it wouldn't have happened.


And people would've then blamed the lino for getting the decision wrong.

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Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 06 Dec 2019 09:15

URZZZZ
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Isn't that the point where in your implementation of the law you'd have the penalty retaken?

A player clearing a saved penalty from being tapped in by an attacker by virtue of their encroachment giving them a headstart to get to the ball first (or just making it more difficult by being in the way).

Or are you suggesting that we should do away with encroachment entirely?


I'm not even sure if we are disagreeing anymore.

Clearly if a defender who has encroached clears a saved penalty (i.e. the ball rebounds to him and he clears the ball), he has gained an advantage from his encroachment, and the kick should be retaken.

I am simply saying that if, for example, a goalkeeper tips a penalty around the post, no advantage has been gained from any encroachment by defenders, and so should not be penalised.


It's irrelevant though. According to the FA website, any encroachment by any defending player leads to a retake if it doesn't go in. Ultimately a law is a law, and even though it has no direct impact upon the player scoring/missing the penalty, players should be able to respect the laws that are set


I was having a discussion, involving opinions. We can all point at the rule book. That wasn't the point of the conversation. And referees are taking a more sensible approach.


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Re: VAR

by Silver Fox » 06 Dec 2019 09:22

Hendo
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To be honest, I really can’t stand VAR but that’s down to the players 100%. It’s schoolboy stuff not to play to the whistle


Yep not a VAR thing but can understand why players stopped when you actually see a flag go up - they are still conditioned that once the flag is up you stop - most refs would have blown once the flag is up and even waving play on, it's pretty much too late as Shelvey has the advantage.

Errors all round really last night but surprisingly not with VAR - though of course if VAR didn't exist, it wouldn't have happened.


And people would've then blamed the lino for getting the decision wrong.


Without VAR he might have actually watched the free kick (we are talking about Luiz's no goal yeah?) rather than partridge shrugging and going "sod it, VAR will know"

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Re: VAR

by Hendo » 06 Dec 2019 09:22

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Yep not a VAR thing but can understand why players stopped when you actually see a flag go up - they are still conditioned that once the flag is up you stop - most refs would have blown once the flag is up and even waving play on, it's pretty much too late as Shelvey has the advantage.

Errors all round really last night but surprisingly not with VAR - though of course if VAR didn't exist, it wouldn't have happened.


And people would've then blamed the lino for getting the decision wrong.


Without VAR he might have actually watched the free kick (we are talking about Luiz's no goal yeah?) rather than partridge shrugging and going "sod it, VAR will know"


Nah, Shelvey's goal in the Sheff Utd v Newcastle match.

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Re: VAR

by Hoop Blah » 06 Dec 2019 09:42

Silver Fox Without VAR he might have actually watched the free kick (we are talking about Luiz's no goal yeah?) rather than partridge shrugging and going "sod it, VAR will know"


A different goal, but I do think it's a point worth highlighting, that officials are changing the way they're making decisions and reacting to events within a game because of VAR. There's even a policy decision to do so on tight offside decisions.

We've seen that a little pre-VAR with offsides being messed about so that the flag should only go up when a forward plays or attempts to play the ball, but, like in cricket with the no-balls, I don't see it being a positive on the way officials are running the game in the first place.

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Re: VAR

by Stranded » 06 Dec 2019 09:52

Do PL linos ever drop down to the EFL for games, like refs occasionally do?

Would be interesting to see how they cope shifting to a non-VAR environment and back again.

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Re: VAR

by Whore Jackie » 06 Dec 2019 12:46

Stranded Do PL linos ever drop down to the EFL for games, like refs occasionally do?

Would be interesting to see how they cope shifting to a non-VAR environment and back again.


Good question. Always assumed that the top-level linos still reffed at a lower lever, but no idea if that's true. At what point do you sack off reffing and solely concentrate on being a lino?


PGMOL Formed in 2001 to improve refereeing standards, the PGMOL group officiate across all the Premier League, English Football League (EFL) and Football Association (FA) Competitions. All three organisations fund it. The training, development and mentoring of 110 referees and 175 assistant referees, run by Managing Director Mike Riley (a former PGMOL referee) and a team of managers and coaches.

The most high-profile officials, the 17 full-time professional Select Group One referees. Currently, PGMOL have 65 in the Select Group who are full-time professional match officials. These are broken down between Select Group 1 Referees, Select Group 1 Assistant Referees and Select Group 2 Referees.


Looks like they would indeed drop down to the EFL, when their Select Group 1 Referee counterpart does so.

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Re: VAR

by John Madejski's Wallet » 07 Dec 2019 23:22

Hendo
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URZZZZ
To be honest, I really can’t stand VAR but that’s down to the players 100%. It’s schoolboy stuff not to play to the whistle


Yep not a VAR thing but can understand why players stopped when you actually see a flag go up - they are still conditioned that once the flag is up you stop - most refs would have blown once the flag is up and even waving play on, it's pretty much too late as Shelvey has the advantage.

Errors all round really last night but surprisingly not with VAR - though of course if VAR didn't exist, it wouldn't have happened.


And people would've then blamed the lino for getting the decision wrong.

No, people who have pretty much shrugged at the lino getting that wrong as the ref would have blown and everyone would have stopped playing and a goal wouldn't have been scored. As has always happened in the multitude of borderline offsides that have happened in history. In every game.

Don't see the point of having a lino. And I certainly don't want one of those linos dropping down to our league as they are going to be useless at flagging

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Re: VAR

by URZZZZ » 09 Dec 2019 00:03

VAR this weekend has generally worked OK, especially at the Manchester Derby

Although not sure about the penalty claim/offside goal at Carrow Road today, I don't think Lundstram is interfering before Hernandez takes out Baldock and therefore a penalty should be given surely

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