VAR

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Sanguine
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Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 19 Feb 2020 13:26

What the change would do is move the dial firmly towards 'the offside player got an advantage', which is one of the problems with the current setup.

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Re: VAR

by Franchise FC » 19 Feb 2020 20:28

What the hell is going on tonight ?

Antonio through and very clearly onside, but linesman flags. Not a VAR decision but still a crap one.
Followed by Aguero being pulled back by Ogbonna. Even if, as the commentators kept saying, he was flagged offside, it should have been checked. However, the game didn’t stop so wasn’t given offside. Therefore, should have been checked anyway and would have been a pen and a red.

Is VAR not in operation tonight ?

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Re: VAR

by paultheroyal » 20 Feb 2020 12:48

Apologies if mentioned but is VAR in operation around the world? Do they not have the same issues?

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Re: VAR

by Franchise FC » 20 Feb 2020 13:27

paultheroyal Apologies if mentioned but is VAR in operation around the world? Do they not have the same issues?

A few weeks ago I remember seeing some interview with someone from FIFA who said that the way it had been used in England was not the way it has been implemented in other countries

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Re: VAR

by paultheroyal » 20 Feb 2020 14:50

Found this - worth a read. Basically similar issues...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50392207


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Re: VAR

by LWJ » 20 Feb 2020 15:58

The PGMOL want the referees to use the screens, the PL and clubs both said they didn't want it at the start of the season.

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Re: VAR

by genome » 22 Feb 2020 16:11

Absolutely ridiculous from VAR in the Chelsea-Tottenham match, they don't send off Lo Celso for a stamp and obvious red card, and then later (while the match is still going on) they admit they got it wrong! :lol:

I mean, I have Spurs allegiances, but fcuk me, that was as stonewall a red as you'll see all season.

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Old Man Andrews
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Re: VAR

by Old Man Andrews » 22 Feb 2020 16:13

Farcical stuff, it really is. Best league in the world??

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Re: VAR

by Tails » 22 Feb 2020 19:03

Notice the Wales v France game today, contentious decision as to whether France deliberately knock on. Decision was that it wasn’t, disagreement in the studio but everyone was able to move on and not wet the bed about it.

A decision was made, people have disagreed, but move on. It hasn’t affected the result has it?


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Re: VAR

by Old Man Andrews » 22 Feb 2020 19:06

Tails Notice the Wales v France game today, contentious decision as to whether France deliberately knock on. Decision was that it wasn’t, disagreement in the studio but everyone was able to move on and not wet the bed about it.

A decision was made, people have disagreed, but move on. It hasn’t affected the result has it?

Are you oxf*rd talking about oxf*rd rugby in a oxf*rd football oxf*rd thread?

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Re: VAR

by Tails » 22 Feb 2020 19:08

Stop being a Snowflake, OMA.

If you can’t keep up with the conversation, let the adults talk.

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Re: VAR

by genome » 22 Feb 2020 22:49

Tails Notice the Wales v France game today, contentious decision as to whether France deliberately knock on. Decision was that it wasn’t, disagreement in the studio but everyone was able to move on and not wet the bed about it.

A decision was made, people have disagreed, but move on. It hasn’t affected the result has it?


I dunno. There's plenty of moaning on social media about it.

But, also, remember TMO is pretty much spot on most of the time, so there is a lot more trust in the system.

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Re: VAR

by Tails » 23 Feb 2020 00:08

Aye, but the pundits and pros don’t make a meal of it and thus the narrative is a lot more palatable to watch as a spectacle.

The football coverage is just so much less appealing when you have those decisions coupled with Garth Crooks going off for 10 minutes.

Sure the rule makers can reflect on lessons learned on a macro level, and the officials should have a review of their decisions on a micro level (and use of VAR in making those decisions). Pundits and pros can provide constructive comments but keep the majority of the analysis on the football.


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Re: VAR

by Franchise FC » 23 Feb 2020 07:29

Tails Aye, but the pundits and pros don’t make a meal of it and thus the narrative is a lot more palatable to watch as a spectacle.

The football coverage is just so much less appealing when you have those decisions coupled with Garth Crooks going off for 10 minutes.

Sure the rule makers can reflect on lessons learned on a macro level, and the officials should have a review of their decisions on a micro level (and use of VAR in making those decisions). Pundits and pros can provide constructive comments but keep the majority of the analysis on the football.

The major difference is that the TMO ‘controversies’ seem significantly lower in number. So much so, that this incident this weekend is so out of the ordinary.

With football, and there’s a large number just from yesterday, the use of VAR was supposed to get rid of the controversy. It’s done nothing of the sort.
What is is showing is that, far from being a human error issue with referees, they really are not very good. The two red card incidents this week, the two ridiculous handball incidents in one game yesterday (Burnley/Bournemouth not Leicester/ManCity, although that had a couple of debatable)

How can anyone support a system that can look at incidents multiple times, then 20 minutes later decide, ‘Sorry guys, got that one wrong’ ?

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Re: VAR

by South Coast Royal » 23 Feb 2020 15:00

Old Man Andrews Farcical stuff, it really is. Best league in the world??


Remember that we had no referees IIRC chosen for the last World Cup.
Who takes the decisions at Stokely Park?
English referees (not VAR).

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Re: VAR

by South Coast Royal » 23 Feb 2020 17:09

Have just watched the extended highlights of the Burnley v Bournemouth game in anticipation of much wailing and weeping down this way in the week ahead of how hard done by they were by VAR.
The first disallowed goal was probably a bit harsh but after that the ref failed to see the blatant handball by Cook which should have led to a penalty.

The second incident was a blatant handball by Smith before they broke away and scored so correctly the goal was disallowed and a penalty given.

After that Bournemouth fell to pieces and it could have been 6 or 7.
As they were so often in the past when we used to play them this is a physically and mentally soft team with a real chance of relegation.

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Re: VAR

by Nameless » 23 Feb 2020 17:39

Franchise FC
Tails Aye, but the pundits and pros don’t make a meal of it and thus the narrative is a lot more palatable to watch as a spectacle.

The football coverage is just so much less appealing when you have those decisions coupled with Garth Crooks going off for 10 minutes.

Sure the rule makers can reflect on lessons learned on a macro level, and the officials should have a review of their decisions on a micro level (and use of VAR in making those decisions). Pundits and pros can provide constructive comments but keep the majority of the analysis on the football.

The major difference is that the TMO ‘controversies’ seem significantly lower in number. So much so, that this incident this weekend is so out of the ordinary.

With football, and there’s a large number just from yesterday, the use of VAR was supposed to get rid of the controversy. It’s done nothing of the sort.
What is is showing is that, far from being a human error issue with referees, they really are not very good. The two red card incidents this week, the two ridiculous handball incidents in one game yesterday (Burnley/Bournemouth not Leicester/ManCity, although that had a couple of debatable)

How can anyone support a system that can look at incidents multiple times, then 20 minutes later decide, ‘Sorry guys, got that one wrong’ ?


VAR isn’t the issue. The issue is the complete lack of any ethical principles in football. Zero respect for officials, zero respect for your opponent. There would be no need for VAR if there was a healthy attitude in the game that said ‘we ask officials to referee honestly and without bias, but we recognise they are not perfect and will make mistakes’. Officiating in sport is much easier if the players are honest and don’t constantly try to cheat. Of course you want officials to be the best they can but football is fundamentally unsuited to the use of VAR from a technical and an ethical stand point.
Sports where VAR works use it to essentially make decisions on matters of fact but football officiating is largely opinion based, not fact based.

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Re: VAR

by Franchise FC » 23 Feb 2020 19:09

Nameless
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Tails Aye, but the pundits and pros don’t make a meal of it and thus the narrative is a lot more palatable to watch as a spectacle.

The football coverage is just so much less appealing when you have those decisions coupled with Garth Crooks going off for 10 minutes.

Sure the rule makers can reflect on lessons learned on a macro level, and the officials should have a review of their decisions on a micro level (and use of VAR in making those decisions). Pundits and pros can provide constructive comments but keep the majority of the analysis on the football.

The major difference is that the TMO ‘controversies’ seem significantly lower in number. So much so, that this incident this weekend is so out of the ordinary.

With football, and there’s a large number just from yesterday, the use of VAR was supposed to get rid of the controversy. It’s done nothing of the sort.
What is is showing is that, far from being a human error issue with referees, they really are not very good. The two red card incidents this week, the two ridiculous handball incidents in one game yesterday (Burnley/Bournemouth not Leicester/ManCity, although that had a couple of debatable)

How can anyone support a system that can look at incidents multiple times, then 20 minutes later decide, ‘Sorry guys, got that one wrong’ ?


VAR isn’t the issue. The issue is the complete lack of any ethical principles in football. Zero respect for officials, zero respect for your opponent. There would be no need for VAR if there was a healthy attitude in the game that said ‘we ask officials to referee honestly and without bias, but we recognise they are not perfect and will make mistakes’. Officiating in sport is much easier if the players are honest and don’t constantly try to cheat. Of course you want officials to be the best they can but football is fundamentally unsuited to the use of VAR from a technical and an ethical stand point.
Sports where VAR works use it to essentially make decisions on matters of fact but football officiating is largely opinion based, not fact based.

That's absolutely correct.
The problem that needs to be solved is that the football administrators want to start with grass roots when that's the exact opposite of what is needed.
Instil the discipline at the top level and the kids will follow. Try from the other end and the kids will just point to the 'stars' and say 'Well, they get away with it'
Why, oh why, won't the laws concerning things like dissent use some of the laws from other sports.
Show dissent, take the ball forward 10 yards for the other team (include in that not retreating at a free kick).
If that takes the ball into the penalty area, then give a penalty. Carry on and award a penalty goal.
I'm willing to bet that the disrespect would stop very, very quickly.
It would also mean fewer yellow cards for dissent and there would be no need. A penalty goal is significantly more damaging than taking a yellow card.
And before some bright spark says 'They've tried that'. Well, no they really haven't. Last time it was take the ball 10 yards AND book the perpetrator. Don't bother with the booking at all.

It could also work for wasting time at a restart. Take too much time, then switch the decision to the opposition. I would include swapping a goal kick for a corner.

To me it sounds so simple and seems to be so effective. But no, let's have a system that the referees clearly cannot manage properly and which does little to stop the controversies.

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Re: VAR

by Nameless » 23 Feb 2020 20:33

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Nameless
Franchise FC The major difference is that the TMO ‘controversies’ seem significantly lower in number. So much so, that this incident this weekend is so out of the ordinary.

With football, and there’s a large number just from yesterday, the use of VAR was supposed to get rid of the controversy. It’s done nothing of the sort.
What is is showing is that, far from being a human error issue with referees, they really are not very good. The two red card incidents this week, the two ridiculous handball incidents in one game yesterday (Burnley/Bournemouth not Leicester/ManCity, although that had a couple of debatable)

How can anyone support a system that can look at incidents multiple times, then 20 minutes later decide, ‘Sorry guys, got that one wrong’ ?


VAR isn’t the issue. The issue is the complete lack of any ethical principles in football. Zero respect for officials, zero respect for your opponent. There would be no need for VAR if there was a healthy attitude in the game that said ‘we ask officials to referee honestly and without bias, but we recognise they are not perfect and will make mistakes’. Officiating in sport is much easier if the players are honest and don’t constantly try to cheat. Of course you want officials to be the best they can but football is fundamentally unsuited to the use of VAR from a technical and an ethical stand point.
Sports where VAR works use it to essentially make decisions on matters of fact but football officiating is largely opinion based, not fact based.

That's absolutely correct.
The problem that needs to be solved is that the football administrators want to start with grass roots when that's the exact opposite of what is needed.
Instil the discipline at the top level and the kids will follow. Try from the other end and the kids will just point to the 'stars' and say 'Well, they get away with it'
Why, oh why, won't the laws concerning things like dissent use some of the laws from other sports.
Show dissent, take the ball forward 10 yards for the other team (include in that not retreating at a free kick).
If that takes the ball into the penalty area, then give a penalty. Carry on and award a penalty goal.
I'm willing to bet that the disrespect would stop very, very quickly.
It would also mean fewer yellow cards for dissent and there would be no need. A penalty goal is significantly more damaging than taking a yellow card.
And before some bright spark says 'They've tried that'. Well, no they really haven't. Last time it was take the ball 10 yards AND book the perpetrator. Don't bother with the booking at all.

It could also work for wasting time at a restart. Take too much time, then switch the decision to the opposition. I would include swapping a goal kick for a corner.

To me it sounds so simple and seems to be so effective. But no, let's have a system that the referees clearly cannot manage properly and which does little to stop the controversies.


I love some of the changes hockey made and an experiment in football would be interesting. Granted they weren’t made to solve a discipline issue but nonetheless. Th8ngs like you can take a free kick to yourself and wherever you have the ball. Huge advantage in just cracking on and restarting straightaway without this nonsense about getting the ball on the exact spot and stopping players encroaching. It’s also an offence for a defender to play the ball after the whistle has gone, so you don’t knock the ball away or pick it up and stop the hit being taken. I’d do the same in football, touch the ball after the whistle and the kick goes forward 10 yards.
Rather than moving the ball forward for dissent I would have 5 minute suspensions. Imagine if 4 players surround the ref and he gives them all 5 mins in the naughty step ! The rule requiring minimum numbers on the pitch would not apply. I reckon dissent would stop over night !

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Re: VAR

by Franchise FC » 23 Feb 2020 21:02

Nameless
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Nameless
VAR isn’t the issue. The issue is the complete lack of any ethical principles in football. Zero respect for officials, zero respect for your opponent. There would be no need for VAR if there was a healthy attitude in the game that said ‘we ask officials to referee honestly and without bias, but we recognise they are not perfect and will make mistakes’. Officiating in sport is much easier if the players are honest and don’t constantly try to cheat. Of course you want officials to be the best they can but football is fundamentally unsuited to the use of VAR from a technical and an ethical stand point.
Sports where VAR works use it to essentially make decisions on matters of fact but football officiating is largely opinion based, not fact based.

That's absolutely correct.
The problem that needs to be solved is that the football administrators want to start with grass roots when that's the exact opposite of what is needed.
Instil the discipline at the top level and the kids will follow. Try from the other end and the kids will just point to the 'stars' and say 'Well, they get away with it'
Why, oh why, won't the laws concerning things like dissent use some of the laws from other sports.
Show dissent, take the ball forward 10 yards for the other team (include in that not retreating at a free kick).
If that takes the ball into the penalty area, then give a penalty. Carry on and award a penalty goal.
I'm willing to bet that the disrespect would stop very, very quickly.
It would also mean fewer yellow cards for dissent and there would be no need. A penalty goal is significantly more damaging than taking a yellow card.
And before some bright spark says 'They've tried that'. Well, no they really haven't. Last time it was take the ball 10 yards AND book the perpetrator. Don't bother with the booking at all.

It could also work for wasting time at a restart. Take too much time, then switch the decision to the opposition. I would include swapping a goal kick for a corner.

To me it sounds so simple and seems to be so effective. But no, let's have a system that the referees clearly cannot manage properly and which does little to stop the controversies.


I love some of the changes hockey made and an experiment in football would be interesting. Granted they weren’t made to solve a discipline issue but nonetheless. Th8ngs like you can take a free kick to yourself and wherever you have the ball. Huge advantage in just cracking on and restarting straightaway without this nonsense about getting the ball on the exact spot and stopping players encroaching. It’s also an offence for a defender to play the ball after the whistle has gone, so you don’t knock the ball away or pick it up and stop the hit being taken. I’d do the same in football, touch the ball after the whistle and the kick goes forward 10 yards.
Rather than moving the ball forward for dissent I would have 5 minute suspensions. Imagine if 4 players surround the ref and he gives them all 5 mins in the naughty step ! The rule requiring minimum numbers on the pitch would not apply. I reckon dissent would stop over night !

We need to put this into a proposal, translate into French, German and Portuguese (that covers the law makers) and see what they say.

Oh wait, done that before and got …. let me think … no response :lol:

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