Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

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Tony Le Mesmer
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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Tony Le Mesmer » 26 Nov 2010 11:11

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Mr Angry Personally, I think we should have a PL, Championship and League 1 of only 16 teams each, then Leagues 2/3/4/Conference to go Regional (like the Old Div 3 North & South).


I knwo what you mean but clubs would need to find a way of replacing 7 games worth of income


Logic would dictate that if you had fewer games a season, average gates would be higher. Regionalisation in the lower leagues would also mean more away support. 46 games is just too many, games become a bit of chore at times and if you are succesful you get a 3 game play off system to decide it all. A shorter main season and extended play offs would be far better than we have at present. Or no play offs at all. Seems to me weve stuck with just about the worst system of all, just because its the way its always been.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Skyline » 26 Nov 2010 11:20

I've said it before, but the problem is that there are just too many professional clubs in this country. If you look at most leagues on the continent, anything below tier 2 is mostly semi-pro teams. Having four professional divisions (and a fair few in the Conference also professional) is too many for the fan base to support financially.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Silver Fox » 26 Nov 2010 11:40

Tony Le Mesmer Logic would dictate that if you had fewer games a season, average gates would be higher.


PLease continue, I'd love to hear this

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by handbags_harris » 26 Nov 2010 13:38

Silver Fox
Tony Le Mesmer Logic would dictate that if you had fewer games a season, average gates would be higher.


PLease continue, I'd love to hear this


Is it not a fairly obvious point? Fewer games = less expenditure provided the cost of match tickets remains similar to what it is now, because the number of fans who pick and choose their games because they can't afford every game would theoretically be able to afford the extra games. A debatable point, one which I'm not sure I agree with because it doesn't take into account the prevailing attitude of various factions of support, but the basic theory is fairly sound if you ask me.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Silver Fox » 26 Nov 2010 13:46

If someone can currently only afford 6 games a season how will they be able to afford more games just because there are less to choose from? This would only increase average attendance if the pick and choose types currently attend more than 17 games surely


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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Stranded » 26 Nov 2010 13:57

Plus surely if there are a less games, there is going to be an increase in ticket price. A club would have to budget based on a ground say 60% full, so would have to increase their prices to cover the short fall or work with less revenue.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Tony Le Mesmer » 26 Nov 2010 14:44

Well, put it in simple terms.

If we only had say 5 games a season at Home, we would sell out the ground every game, more if there was room. Squad sizes would be smaller, so less wages.

If we had 100 games, the gates would be much lower. Squad sizes would need to be huge. Fans couldnt afford it and it would just be uneventful.

So somewhere in the middle is obv best, just in my opinion 17-19 Homes games a season.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Silver Fox » 26 Nov 2010 14:56

Snowball would like his "using ridiculous statistics to prove a point" book back

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Skyline » 26 Nov 2010 15:08

Silver Fox If someone can currently only afford 6 games a season how will they be able to afford more games just because there are less to choose from? This would only increase average attendance if the pick and choose types currently attend more than 17 games surely



Think you've got the logic wrong there SF.

To keep the maths simple, imagine there are 20 home games, each with an attendance of 20,000, 5000 of whom are 'turn up for five games a season' types. So a total attendance of 400,000, with 100,000 'five-games-a-season' seats.

Now if you reduce the number of games to 15, you still get the 15,000 'every game' types. But the folks who only go to 5 games a year are now only spread across 15 games rather than 20. 100,000 / 15 = ~6667. So an extra ~1667 seats per game are taken up by the 'five-games-a-season' crowd.

Not saying I agree that that's what would happen, but it's how I suspect the original logic was supposed to work.


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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Bandini » 26 Nov 2010 15:17

Although there are fewer opportunities for them to go to their 5 games a season.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Wax Jacket » 26 Nov 2010 15:31

Bandini Although there are fewer opportunities for them to go to their 5 games a season.


chuckle

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Silver Fox » 26 Nov 2010 15:32

I'll just about accept that Skyline, although you seem to have 5000 5 games a season types turning up to every game, so the increase is slightly less than you make out, and as Dave says, they'd have less opportunity to go to their 5 games anyway

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Skyline » 26 Nov 2010 16:10

Yes, I was trying to simplify the maths TBF.

And like I said, I don't necessarily agree with the argument*, just thought I could explain where I thought it was coming from.

* - Actually, I doubt it would work out like that at all.


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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by East End Lady » 26 Nov 2010 16:52

I know it is friday afternoon and my brain is fried but surely on the examples given there are still the same number of not every week people going annually just over fewer games. If prices are staying the same and your diehards are going to fewer games as well won't revenue actually go down even though the figures will show a slightly higher average attendance per game.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Silver Fox » 26 Nov 2010 16:59

Exactly, the average will go up slightly (my sincerest apologies) but if you've got 15000 regulars and 5000 5-a-seasoners you lose 90,000 ticket sales if you drop 6 games. If anyone can persuade clubs to go for that they might be gainfully employed by turkey farmers trying to sell their plans to their birds at this time of year.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Wax Jacket » 26 Nov 2010 18:51

Silver Fox Exactly, the average will go up slightly (my sincerest apologies) but if you've got 15000 regulars and 5000 5-a-seasoners you lose 90,000 ticket sales if you drop 6 games. If anyone can persuade clubs to go for that they might be gainfully employed by turkey farmers trying to sell their plans to their birds at this time of year.


it'd lead to the creation of two or three mickey mouse cups to keep the turnstiles going

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Rev Algenon Stickleback H » 26 Nov 2010 18:52

Skyline I've said it before, but the problem is that there are just too many professional clubs in this country. If you look at most leagues on the continent, anything below tier 2 is mostly semi-pro teams. Having four professional divisions (and a fair few in the Conference also professional) is too many for the fan base to support financially.

the reason most are semi-pro below the 2nd tier in other countries is because their crowds are shit.

The reason clubs here are full time here is because they can afford to be.

Only one country has anywhere near the depth of support that exists in England, and that's Germany, who have just introduced a national 3rd division for the first time.

Unless you are suggesting teams are culled/merged to create less teams your idea makes no sense. Any club pulling in 3000 a game should have no trouble being a full-time club.

I would agree with you that conference level teams getting 1500 really shouldn't be full-time, but it's got nothing to do with there not being enough fans to go round, just that there aren't enough fans where they are.

And if you are suggesting less teams, then that's crazy. Take a club like Torquay. Their fan base is poor, which puts them at a disadvantage, but I can't see who exactly would benefit from Torquay ceasing to exist.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Rev Algenon Stickleback H » 26 Nov 2010 18:55

Silver Fox Exactly, the average will go up slightly (my sincerest apologies) but if you've got 15000 regulars and 5000 5-a-seasoners you lose 90,000 ticket sales if you drop 6 games. If anyone can persuade clubs to go for that they might be gainfully employed by turkey farmers trying to sell their plans to their birds at this time of year.


I do recall a few years back on ITV there used to be a sports equivalent of question time. One week they had John Salako and Ken Bates (& others) on there, and Salako suggested that the top division be reduced to 18 clubs. Ken Bates immediately piped up "Ok John. I presume you'll be happy to take a pay cut to cover the loss of income?" Cue one very quiet John Salako.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by TFF » 26 Nov 2010 19:34

Rev Algenon Stickleback H The reason clubs here are full time here is because they can afford to be.


This thread would suggest otherwise

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Rev Algenon Stickleback H » 26 Nov 2010 21:07

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Rev Algenon Stickleback H The reason clubs here are full time here is because they can afford to be.


This thread would suggest otherwise

No. It just suggests that clubs choose to spend more than their income. Losses have got nothing at all to do with there being not enough fans.

Look how much money premier league clubs get, and the fortunes they lose. Would you suggest Bolton, who get around £60 million a year these days, can't afford to field a full-time team?

What's unsustainable is a system that virtually forces clubs to overspend to be competitive, not full time football. Fan numbers have nothing to do with it. Crowds could double and clubs would still lose money, because that's the way they operate.

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