Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

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Tony Le Mesmer
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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Tony Le Mesmer » 26 Nov 2010 21:53

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Silver Fox Exactly, the average will go up slightly (my sincerest apologies) but if you've got 15000 regulars and 5000 5-a-seasoners you lose 90,000 ticket sales if you drop 6 games. If anyone can persuade clubs to go for that they might be gainfully employed by turkey farmers trying to sell their plans to their birds at this time of year.


it'd lead to the creation of two or three mickey mouse cups to keep the turnstiles going


But 90% of clubs are losing money. So should we increase divisions to say 30 teams to bridge the losses? Of course not. Youd need a bigger squad for a start, and wages go up.

How much do teams spend on loan wages because the season is too long for their squad to cope?

The Europa League and the extra fixtures that brings just leads to more losses. You either bring more players to the squad (which, along with other expenses costs more than the extra revenue) of stick with what you have and run the increased risk of relegation due to fixture pile up.

So , my point is that i dont think reducing the number of teams in each division to say 20 would mean clubs losing more or making less. If you factor in an extended play off system with revenues shared as well, it isnt an issue. A marathon 46 game season with a majority aiming for playoffs that are over in the blink of an eye is just daft to me.

The Football League is just stuck in the 1950s and everyone seems scared to change.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Rev Algenon Stickleback H » 26 Nov 2010 23:04

Tony Le Mesmer
But 90% of clubs are losing money. So should we increase divisions to say 30 teams to bridge the losses? Of course not. Youd need a bigger squad for a start, and wages go up.

How much do teams spend on loan wages because the season is too long for their squad to cope?

You need to look at why clubs are losing money. It's not due to a lack of money coming in.

In the mid 80s, at this level, Reading were pulling 6500 a week, paying £3 each to get in. Our annual turnover must have been about £1 million at most, yet we had a full-time squad. We must get 15 times that amount now. Crowds have doubled across the board since then. Ticket prices have risen several hundred percent. TV money is through the roof. Yes, wages are higher too, but that because our clubs choose to pay that amount.


The problem is that we have a structure that (potentially) rewards financial excess and punishes prudence. If your peers are all paying 10%-20% more than they can afford, then your club also has to overspend as well, or you'll be at a competitive disadvantage. In fact reduced gates and possible relegation due to poor results could see your club lose more than it would have lost by overspending.

Take away the ability for clubs to overspend and you'd also take away the need. I don't understand exactly how the system works, but in Germany it's something like every club is not allowed to get into debt, and if they do go into debt, they have to reduce that debt. They are given a bit of time to do so, but if they fail then they lose their licence and are kicked out the league. That would focus the minds of chairman rather more than the threat of a 10 point penalty several years down the line, possibly after they've sold the club, would.

So , my point is that i dont think reducing the number of teams in each division to say 20 would mean clubs losing more or making less. If you factor in an extended play off system with revenues shared as well, it isnt an issue. A marathon 46 game season with a majority aiming for playoffs that are over in the blink of an eye is just daft to me.

The Football League is just stuck in the 1950s and everyone seems scared to change.

I agree partially. I don't think an extended play-off system would work too well. It's be a bit of a farce. As it is everyone in the top half feels they are in contention until about mid-April anyway, so I don't think you'd gain much. I also really don't like the idea of a team finshing 10th "earning" promotion over a team that finished 20-30 points ahead.


I don't think going down to 20 or 18 teams, with more regionalisation, would be a bad idea though. 46 games is a bit too much of a marathon, and feels like it is those spells where the team is playing twice a week, every week, for a month.

It would also allow players to train better too. I remember Kevin Doyle saying he noticed just how little time there was to train when we got relegated, as players spent so much time travelling, either for international breaks or away games, or just resting before home games, or recovering from games the previous night.

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Harpers So Solid Crew
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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Harpers So Solid Crew » 27 Nov 2010 12:37

Rev Algenon Stickleback H
In the mid 80s, at this level, Reading were pulling 6500 a week, paying £3 each to get in. Our annual turnover must have been about £1 million at most, yet we had a full-time squad. We must get 15 times that amount now. Crowds have doubled across the board since then. Ticket prices have risen several hundred percent. TV money is through the roof. Yes, wages are higher too, but that because our clubs choose to pay that amount.


Bit more than 6500 at this level.

http://www.european-football-statistics ... b/read.htm

the point is still valid tho. What we did have was a much smaller squad of players then. Less subs for a start.

Might well be a gamble but with the number of subs now I would rather see a couple of youngsters on starting salaries, rather than past it players taking a last paycheque

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Harpers So Solid Crew » 27 Nov 2010 18:06

Oh look Mandaric gets in at yet another club. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... 226161.stm and the Co-Op seem to write of about £16mill

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Ian Royal » 27 Nov 2010 18:09

Harpers So Solid Crew Oh look Mandaric gets in at yet another club. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... 226161.stm and the Co-Op seem to write of about £16mill

Seriously, what bank would extend much credit to a football club these days? They'd have to be insane.


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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Harpers So Solid Crew » 27 Nov 2010 18:10

Ethical banks, can someone write off 2/3rds of my loans, and allow me to keep what I bought with it please?

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Svlad Cjelli » 27 Nov 2010 19:48

Rev Algernon Stickleback H In the mid 80s, at this level, Reading were pulling 6500 a week, paying £3 each to get in. Our annual turnover must have been about £1 million at most, yet we had a full-time squad. We must get 15 times that amount now. Crowds have doubled across the board since then. Ticket prices have risen several hundred percent. TV money is through the roof. Yes, wages are higher too, but that because our clubs choose to pay that amount.


Never forget that one of the arguments for the formation of the PL was that an 18-team league which player fewer games would improve the England team - that was what made the FA give their name to it initially. (Oh, the irony....)

But after going down to 20 (as we all know!) somehow they never quite got around to reducing the final two teams .... and it's clear that this is down to the clubs not wanting to lose the revenue.

Because, as someone's already said, income will reduce by 2/19 (including a proportionate reduction in TV revenue, which is the bulk of PL income) but expenditure (wages) isn't linked to number of games and that's where the money all goes.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Harpers So Solid Crew » 28 Nov 2010 06:49

No need at all for the TV revenue to fall if there are fewer or less games in The Premier League.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Svlad Cjelli » 28 Nov 2010 13:44

Harpers So Solid Crew No need at all for the TV revenue to fall if there are fewer or less games in The Premier League.


Only if you have games staggered, so some teams don't play one weekend. In any case, the percentage of televised games would have to increases, and I instinctively feel that the TV companies would want a reduction - or at least it would stop the on-going increase in TV contracts.


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Silver Fox
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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Silver Fox » 28 Nov 2010 14:25

Welcome to Thursday night football surely?

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Bandini
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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Bandini » 28 Nov 2010 18:49

Silver Fox Welcome to Thursday night football surely?


*joke about Liverpool*

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Mr Angry » 29 Nov 2010 10:19

Harpers So Solid Crew Oh look Mandaric gets in at yet another club. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... 226161.stm and the Co-Op seem to write of about £16mill



Mandaric, along with Peter Ridsdale, Sam Hammam and Ron Noades is one of the 4 footballing horsemen of the apocalypse; when they arrive you know your team is in trouble!!!!

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Svlad Cjelli » 29 Nov 2010 13:13

And Peter Ridsdale is reportedly just about to take over Plymouth.


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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Barry the bird boggler » 29 Nov 2010 15:49

And where does that leave Leicester?

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Smoking Kills Dancing Doe
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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Smoking Kills Dancing Doe » 29 Nov 2010 16:17

Tbf fair to Mandaric he took over Pompey in an utter mess and sold them to a wealthy businessman who invested a lot of money in the club. Ok we know where it went, but that was down to Gaydamak pulling the money. Though maybe Mandaric should have sold to someone less dodgy.

Takes over Leicester in an utter mess, turns them round and sells them to wealthy new owners.

He's now saved Sheff Wed.

I get what people are saying bout him, but it's not fair to compare him to Risdale.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by rabidbee » 29 Nov 2010 16:41

So he's the Red Adair of the football world?

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by Mr Angry » 29 Nov 2010 17:33

Nope - an astute businessman; he sees an opportunity to buy a struggling business with a well known brand name and a loyal customer base on the cheap. He spends an amount of money to make the brand far more attractive, then sells it on at a personal profit to some mug with cash to spend and an ego to feed.

If I was a Sheff Weds fan, I wouldn't have too high expectations about the future stability of my club cos it will be sold again in 3 or 4 Years; if I was a Sheff Utd creditor, I would be writing off my debt (it will be re-paid once they reach the Premiership apparantly) and if I was a customer of the Co-op Bank, I would be spitting blood and demanding that every £2 out of £3 of my overdraft were written off as well.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by rabidbee » 29 Nov 2010 19:44

Skyline I've said it before, but the problem is that there are just too many professional clubs in this country. If you look at most leagues on the continent, anything below tier 2 is mostly semi-pro teams. Having four professional divisions (and a fair few in the Conference also professional) is too many for the fan base to support financially.


A propos of nothing in particular, looking up something else for work I just noticed that in 1955 Wiltshire had five professional teams: Swindon town, Chippenham Town, Chippenham United, Trowbridge Town and Salisbury, the last four of whom all played in the Western League. That's just craziness.

As for the Conference, I think all but three (including Bath City) are pro now. Unsurprising, given the number of former League teams pushing for a return, but it shows just how deep runs the instinct to stick it all on 32 red and hope your number comes up.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by roadrunner » 29 Nov 2010 20:27

Barry the bird boggler And where does that leave Leicester?


Before their new owners Mandaric was taking them back into Administration.

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Re: Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

by frimmers3 » 29 Nov 2010 21:08

Mr Angry Nope - an astute businessman; he sees an opportunity to buy a struggling business with a well known brand name and a loyal customer base on the cheap. He spends an amount of money to make the brand far more attractive, then sells it on at a personal profit to some mug with cash to spend and an ego to feed.

If I was a Sheff Weds fan, I wouldn't have too high expectations about the future stability of my club cos it will be sold again in 3 or 4 Years; if I was a Sheff Utd creditor, I would be writing off my debt (it will be re-paid once they reach the Premiership apparantly) and if I was a customer of the Co-op Bank, I would be spitting blood and demanding that every £2 out of £3 of my overdraft were written off as well.


sort of a david cameron chappie?

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