Points Deduction AGAIN

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YorkshireRoyal99
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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 20 Mar 2023 11:17

Clyde1998
YorkshireRoyal99 I think it relates to the wage bill, it was at just over £25m for last season where it needed to be around £21.5m as agreed in the Business Plan.

The fact we've still posted losses of £17.3m, including the £8m sale of Olise, is not good either.

Not only that but I don't know how we will have managed to get our wage bill down by nearly £10m for the year this season either considering we haven't lost that many big earners other than Swift.

I don't think anyone's picked up on this point, but the wages in the business plan relate to player wages specifically whereas the wages in the accounts cover all salaried staff at the club (including players, coaches, scouts, directors, ticket office, club shop, catering, etc).

I'm not sure if the business plan wage limit includes social security or pension costs incurred by the club though. If social security and pension costs aren't included as part of the business plan, our total salary expenditure (for all employees) is £22.4m. The business plan limit was £21.1m for player wages, so £1.3m would have to go to non-playing staff to comply.

There were 210 non-playing staff shown in the accounts, so they would have to be paid an average of £6.2k p/a (or greater) to take us below £21.1m wages for the playing staff. Without matchday staff and government training scheme employees, that would mean an average of £9.7k p/a. It's almost certain our playing costs were below £21.1m, once discounting social security and pensions.

If social security and pension costs are included, then (excluding matchday and training scheme employees), it's an average of £31.5k p/a (or greater) to take us below the limit; £4.2m total. That would make it less clear whether our player wages fall below the £21.1m threshold from the accounts alone, but is certainly possible.


Thanks for clarifying - so it seems like it won't be that then. If there is to be a punishment, it seems like it's going to be pretty close to the line either way.

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Sutekh » 20 Mar 2023 11:49


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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Stranded » 20 Mar 2023 12:17

YorkshireRoyal99
Clyde1998
YorkshireRoyal99 I think it relates to the wage bill, it was at just over £25m for last season where it needed to be around £21.5m as agreed in the Business Plan.

The fact we've still posted losses of £17.3m, including the £8m sale of Olise, is not good either.

Not only that but I don't know how we will have managed to get our wage bill down by nearly £10m for the year this season either considering we haven't lost that many big earners other than Swift.

I don't think anyone's picked up on this point, but the wages in the business plan relate to player wages specifically whereas the wages in the accounts cover all salaried staff at the club (including players, coaches, scouts, directors, ticket office, club shop, catering, etc).

I'm not sure if the business plan wage limit includes social security or pension costs incurred by the club though. If social security and pension costs aren't included as part of the business plan, our total salary expenditure (for all employees) is £22.4m. The business plan limit was £21.1m for player wages, so £1.3m would have to go to non-playing staff to comply.

There were 210 non-playing staff shown in the accounts, so they would have to be paid an average of £6.2k p/a (or greater) to take us below £21.1m wages for the playing staff. Without matchday staff and government training scheme employees, that would mean an average of £9.7k p/a. It's almost certain our playing costs were below £21.1m, once discounting social security and pensions.

If social security and pension costs are included, then (excluding matchday and training scheme employees), it's an average of £31.5k p/a (or greater) to take us below the limit; £4.2m total. That would make it less clear whether our player wages fall below the £21.1m threshold from the accounts alone, but is certainly possible.


Thanks for clarifying - so it seems like it won't be that then. If there is to be a punishment, it seems like it's going to be pretty close to the line either way.


I'd be amazed if it is total wages that have stuffed us if it is to do with the business plan and not some issue from 20/21 or earlier.

If it is the business plan then it will have to be some breach of either paying a player too much or we've broken the average of new salaries - i.e. we could pay Player A 8k pw per on average all new signings can only earn 6k pw.

Either that or the losses we can write off are tiny and we have breached as a result.

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Mid Sussex Royal » 20 Mar 2023 13:57

Sutekh Chronicle update from Paul Ince

https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/spor ... hull-draw/


Nothing new then, all this was reported after the game.

I'm pretty sure the Thurs deadline relates to administration cases only after what Leeds did that year.

Its obviously not a clear cut case given the news broke 3 weeks ago.

Also interesting that Brum have been taken out of the relegation odds too....

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by 3points » 20 Mar 2023 15:22

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YorkshireRoyal99
Clyde1998 I don't think anyone's picked up on this point, but the wages in the business plan relate to player wages specifically whereas the wages in the accounts cover all salaried staff at the club (including players, coaches, scouts, directors, ticket office, club shop, catering, etc).

I'm not sure if the business plan wage limit includes social security or pension costs incurred by the club though. If social security and pension costs aren't included as part of the business plan, our total salary expenditure (for all employees) is £22.4m. The business plan limit was £21.1m for player wages, so £1.3m would have to go to non-playing staff to comply.

There were 210 non-playing staff shown in the accounts, so they would have to be paid an average of £6.2k p/a (or greater) to take us below £21.1m wages for the playing staff. Without matchday staff and government training scheme employees, that would mean an average of £9.7k p/a. It's almost certain our playing costs were below £21.1m, once discounting social security and pensions.

If social security and pension costs are included, then (excluding matchday and training scheme employees), it's an average of £31.5k p/a (or greater) to take us below the limit; £4.2m total. That would make it less clear whether our player wages fall below the £21.1m threshold from the accounts alone, but is certainly possible.


Thanks for clarifying - so it seems like it won't be that then. If there is to be a punishment, it seems like it's going to be pretty close to the line either way.


I'd be amazed if it is total wages that have stuffed us if it is to do with the business plan and not some issue from 20/21 or earlier.

If it is the business plan then it will have to be some breach of either paying a player too much or we've broken the average of new salaries - i.e. we could pay Player A 8k pw per on average all new signings can only earn 6k pw.

Either that or the losses we can write off are tiny and we have breached as a result.

I'm sure it will be down to interpretation of the fine details. The club thinks one thing is fine, the EFL don't. Happens all the time in the finance world where management take a more optimistic view in an area that requires judgement than the stakeholders take. For example, the club might be saying someone like Carey's wages could be excluded from the £13m P&S loss calculation as it relates wholly to the academy (and therefore it could be deducted) whereas the EFL says his wages cannot be deducted.

The thing is the fans will never really know. IMO there won't be anything really "major" as the club has already agreed a budget with the EFL and the EFL has been sanctioning player transfers. If there was a fundamental issue then why would the EFL have approved the Casadei loan in January? As we saw with Sarr in the summer, approval wasn't given until the Puscas loan had been agreed, so doubt Casadei was dependent on us moving a player out that then didn't happen at the last minute.


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Winston Biscuit
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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Winston Biscuit » 20 Mar 2023 16:17

I really hope our fans don't go all classic idiot football fan and just start ranting about others clubs or the EFL, and just try to understand what has happened and why we have a points deduction (assuming we are getting one) and the responsibility the club has to try and get things right.

::ducks for cover::

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by paultheroyal » 20 Mar 2023 16:36

Winston Biscuit I really hope our fans don't go all classic idiot football fan and just start ranting about others clubs or the EFL, and just try to understand what has happened and why we have a points deduction (assuming we are getting one) and the responsibility the club has to try and get things right.

::ducks for cover::



EFL chants were well underway on Saturday along with Ince out - both utterly ridiculous.

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Pepe the Horseman
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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Pepe the Horseman » 20 Mar 2023 17:08

What if it turns out it's purely because the EFL have a grudge against us? And Ince is in cahoots with them?

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Pepe the Horseman » 20 Mar 2023 17:09

Won't be so ridiculous then will it? :roll:


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Winston Biscuit
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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Winston Biscuit » 20 Mar 2023 17:37

paultheroyal
Winston Biscuit I really hope our fans don't go all classic idiot football fan and just start ranting about others clubs or the EFL, and just try to understand what has happened and why we have a points deduction (assuming we are getting one) and the responsibility the club has to try and get things right.

::ducks for cover::



EFL chants were well underway on Saturday along with Ince out - both utterly ridiculous.


Of ffs :roll:

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Elm Park Kid » 20 Mar 2023 17:39

Stranded
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Yes - I think now the previous losses are re-set at £13m each year, meaning to stay within FFP on a rolling average we have to be inside £13m each year not to breach it again.

As said above, looking at what we can deduct from the £17m, ie academy, women's team, £2.5m covid adjustment we should be ok.....


You have to think that 6 points was an extremely lax punishment. I could see why fans of other clubs (especially those relegated during that time) would be unhappy.


But the punishment wasn't 6 points was it? It was 6 points then, with the threat of 6 more and massive restrictions on what could be spent on the playing staff which grossly impacted the club in terms of recruitment, leaving us with the Frankenstein's monster of a squad that we currently have.

So whilst the punishment, did not and still may not relegate us, it is hard to argue that the club haven't been punished fairly heavily.


I don't know why this is a hard concept for fans to get - but the restrictions on our spending was not a punishment. It was simply a way to force us to restructure our finances in order to get them to fall within the P&S limits (something that i'm not sure we're even doing this season). It was was/is the EFL managing the way in which we were breaking the rules. Throughout the period we are still gaining an advantage over other teams by having a wage bill higher than our revenue justifies.

It's like if a boxer is caught having used steroids and his 'punishment' is that his medical regime is strictly monitored to ensure that he's not using steroids anymore.

The simple fact is that outspending the P&S rules is massively unfair to every club that got relegated during those seasons, and the only 'fair' punishment for us is relegation as well.

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Schards#2 » 20 Mar 2023 17:43

Wigan have 3 points deducted, down to 31

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One8Seven1*
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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by One8Seven1* » 20 Mar 2023 18:18

Good good. Every little helps.


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Sutekh
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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Sutekh » 20 Mar 2023 18:33

Mid Sussex Royal
Sutekh Chronicle update from Paul Ince

https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/spor ... hull-draw/


Nothing new then, all this was reported after the game.

I'm pretty sure the Thurs deadline relates to administration cases only after what Leeds did that year.

Its obviously not a clear cut case given the news broke 3 weeks ago.

Also interesting that Brum have been taken out of the relegation odds too....


Implied in the article that Brum may also be looking at a points deduction, not sure that’s correct or not

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Mid Sussex Royal » 20 Mar 2023 18:46

Sutekh
Mid Sussex Royal
Sutekh Chronicle update from Paul Ince

https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/spor ... hull-draw/


Nothing new then, all this was reported after the game.

I'm pretty sure the Thurs deadline relates to administration cases only after what Leeds did that year.

Its obviously not a clear cut case given the news broke 3 weeks ago.

Also interesting that Brum have been taken out of the relegation odds too....


Implied in the article that Brum may also be looking at a points deduction, not sure that’s correct or not


Difficult one. They appointed individuals to senior positions without EFL approval and were charged in February.

Rochdale also did this and got away with a suspended 6 points deduction for 2 years, but Brum have got bad form with the EFL over a number of years, particularly on boardroom stuff, so may be looked at differently....

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by windermereROYAL » 20 Mar 2023 18:48

Skybet have suspended their relegation betting. altogether.

And we are still being quoted at 28/1 for a top half finish.

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RG30
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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by RG30 » 20 Mar 2023 19:10

Wouldn’t read anything into that. Too much uncertainty with various teams including ourselves. Going off topic but won’t be long before firms stop pricing relegation markets in the Championship altogether.

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Mid Sussex Royal » 20 Mar 2023 19:24

Alan Nixon (who is usually ITK) saying its gone to a panel which takes time, poss next season....

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by tidus_mi2 » 20 Mar 2023 19:31

Mid Sussex Royal Alan Nixon (who is usually ITK) saying its gone to a panel which takes time, poss next season....

oxf*rd sake, I have to follow him to see his tweets, if it has indeed gone to panel, would suggest we feel confident we have a case.

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Mid Sussex Royal » 20 Mar 2023 19:36

tidus_mi2
Mid Sussex Royal Alan Nixon (who is usually ITK) saying its gone to a panel which takes time, poss next season....

oxf*rd sake, I have to follow him to see his tweets, if it has indeed gone to panel, would suggest we feel confident we have a case.


Yep I picked up from twitter

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