Points Deduction AGAIN

763 posts
SCIAG
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 6362
Joined: 17 Jun 2008 17:43
Location: Liburd for England

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by SCIAG » 20 Mar 2023 20:03

Pepe the Horseman What if it turns out it's purely because the EFL have a grudge against us? And Ince is in cahoots with them?

I have found the smoking gun on the club’s email server:
to: pointsdeductions@efl.org.uk
from: guvnor@reading.football.uk

Hi mate
I’m trying to get this poxy plastic club from near Swindon relegated, but despite my best efforts it looks like we will survive. Any chance of a spurious points deduction? Just make something up, people will believe anything. I know you’ve hated them ever since the multiball saga of 2005.

Cheers
PI

User avatar
tidus_mi2
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7278
Joined: 15 Jun 2012 15:24

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by tidus_mi2 » 20 Mar 2023 20:45

Seems like Alan Nixon mistook someone asking about our points deduction who had the old badge, as Wigan's badge so he thought they were asking about Wigan.

So we might still be fooked

User avatar
Pepe the Horseman
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 17825
Joined: 23 Jun 2011 10:24
Location: Putting right what once went wrong

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Pepe the Horseman » 20 Mar 2023 22:11

SCIAG
Pepe the Horseman What if it turns out it's purely because the EFL have a grudge against us? And Ince is in cahoots with them?

I have found the smoking gun on the club’s email server:
to: pointsdeductions@efl.org.uk
from: guvnor@reading.football.uk

Hi mate
I’m trying to get this poxy plastic club from near Swindon relegated, but despite my best efforts it looks like we will survive. Any chance of a spurious points deduction? Just make something up, people will believe anything. I know you’ve hated them ever since the multiball saga of 2005.

Cheers
PI

Looks like PtR's partner will be baking him Humble Pie for tea.

Webster750
Member
Posts: 113
Joined: 11 Dec 2012 13:30

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Webster750 » 20 Mar 2023 22:20

Hello from the future.

The points deduction is actioned this coming Thursday and Reading go into the final day needing not to lose to Huddersfield to avoid relegation. Paul Ince sets the side up defensively and Reading lose 1-0 having failed to register a single shot on target.

The end.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 39394
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Snowflake Royal » 20 Mar 2023 22:28

3points
Stranded
YorkshireRoyal99
Thanks for clarifying - so it seems like it won't be that then. If there is to be a punishment, it seems like it's going to be pretty close to the line either way.


I'd be amazed if it is total wages that have stuffed us if it is to do with the business plan and not some issue from 20/21 or earlier.

If it is the business plan then it will have to be some breach of either paying a player too much or we've broken the average of new salaries - i.e. we could pay Player A 8k pw per on average all new signings can only earn 6k pw.

Either that or the losses we can write off are tiny and we have breached as a result.

I'm sure it will be down to interpretation of the fine details. The club thinks one thing is fine, the EFL don't. Happens all the time in the finance world where management take a more optimistic view in an area that requires judgement than the stakeholders take. For example, the club might be saying someone like Carey's wages could be excluded from the £13m P&S loss calculation as it relates wholly to the academy (and therefore it could be deducted) whereas the EFL says his wages cannot be deducted.

The thing is the fans will never really know. IMO there won't be anything really "major" as the club has already agreed a budget with the EFL and the EFL has been sanctioning player transfers. If there was a fundamental issue then why would the EFL have approved the Casadei loan in January? As we saw with Sarr in the summer, approval wasn't given until the Puscas loan had been agreed, so doubt Casadei was dependent on us moving a player out that then didn't happen at the last minute.

The suggestion, speculation or truth, is that the issue is from last season, so any signings this season wouldn't come into this issue if this is accuate.


User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 39394
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Snowflake Royal » 20 Mar 2023 22:31

tidus_mi2
Mid Sussex Royal Alan Nixon (who is usually ITK) saying its gone to a panel which takes time, poss next season....

oxf*rd sake, I have to follow him to see his tweets, if it has indeed gone to panel, would suggest we feel confident we have a case.

Or we think it there's too high a chance it sends us down this season and if we can defer it we've got a better chance of doing better next season.

windermereROYAL
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 7998
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 11:18

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by windermereROYAL » 20 Mar 2023 22:55

So that poses the question, if it`s deferred till next season will we still have a transfer embargo hanging over our heads?

User avatar
72 bus
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2145
Joined: 16 Mar 2005 11:01

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by 72 bus » 20 Mar 2023 23:23

Snowflake Royal
tidus_mi2
Mid Sussex Royal Alan Nixon (who is usually ITK) saying its gone to a panel which takes time, poss next season....

oxf*rd sake, I have to follow him to see his tweets, if it has indeed gone to panel, would suggest we feel confident we have a case.

Or we think it there's too high a chance it sends us down this season and if we can defer it we've got a better chance of doing better next season.


Why ! , why would I buy another season ticket for next season knowing we were starting off 6 points down ?

This is no longer a fair league, punish the owners that signed off of the spending but not the players that earned those points and the Fans that bought tickets hoping to see their side compete without being handicaped after three quarters of the season has passed.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 39394
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Snowflake Royal » 20 Mar 2023 23:42

72 bus
Snowflake Royal
tidus_mi2 oxf*rd sake, I have to follow him to see his tweets, if it has indeed gone to panel, would suggest we feel confident we have a case.

Or we think it there's too high a chance it sends us down this season and if we can defer it we've got a better chance of doing better next season.


Why ! , why would I buy another season ticket for next season knowing we were starting off 6 points down ?

This is no longer a fair league, punish the owners that signed off of the spending but not the players that earned those points and the Fans that bought tickets hoping to see their side compete without being handicaped after three quarters of the season has passed.

How?

The FL have no authority over the owners seperate to the club. And the fans were happy enough to demand spending and ignore the consequences.

We get what we deserve, probably less.


User avatar
tmesis
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2780
Joined: 16 Aug 2013 20:26

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by tmesis » 20 Mar 2023 23:56

Snowflake Royal
72 bus
Snowflake Royal Or we think it there's too high a chance it sends us down this season and if we can defer it we've got a better chance of doing better next season.


Why ! , why would I buy another season ticket for next season knowing we were starting off 6 points down ?

This is no longer a fair league, punish the owners that signed off of the spending but not the players that earned those points and the Fans that bought tickets hoping to see their side compete without being handicaped after three quarters of the season has passed.

How?

The FL have no authority over the owners seperate to the club. And the fans were happy enough to demand spending and ignore the consequences.

We get what we deserve, probably less.

I don't recall too many fans demanding spending.

A large number were openly asking how we could afford our signings.

Overall though, if we gained from the overspending, we can't complain about the punishment, if it's fair. The bigger complaint is perhaps how little we had to show from the outlay.

User avatar
Sutekh
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 18386
Joined: 12 Feb 2014 14:05
Location: Undiscovered pyramid somewhere in Egypt

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Sutekh » 21 Mar 2023 08:05

tmesis
Snowflake Royal
72 bus
Why ! , why would I buy another season ticket for next season knowing we were starting off 6 points down ?

This is no longer a fair league, punish the owners that signed off of the spending but not the players that earned those points and the Fans that bought tickets hoping to see their side compete without being handicaped after three quarters of the season has passed.

How?

The FL have no authority over the owners seperate to the club. And the fans were happy enough to demand spending and ignore the consequences.

We get what we deserve, probably less.

I don't recall too many fans demanding spending.

A large number were openly asking how we could afford our signings.

Overall though, if we gained from the overspending, we can't complain about the punishment, if it's fair. The bigger complaint is perhaps how little we had to show from the outlay.


FFP isn’t fit for purpose and needs to be radically altered so that the FL are able to take action in real time not 3 or 4 years down the road. Seems utterly ludicrous that Reading, after being done last season, look like being done again for something that happened last season or earlier when it should have been done last season. If altering FFP means the FL have to monitor daily every single footballing transaction and player contract made by every single league club then so be it, better than all these stupid, confusing and delayed actions springing up at club’s doors years after personnel may have moved on.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 39394
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Snowflake Royal » 21 Mar 2023 08:28

Sutekh
tmesis
Snowflake Royal How?

The FL have no authority over the owners seperate to the club. And the fans were happy enough to demand spending and ignore the consequences.

We get what we deserve, probably less.

I don't recall too many fans demanding spending.

A large number were openly asking how we could afford our signings.

Overall though, if we gained from the overspending, we can't complain about the punishment, if it's fair. The bigger complaint is perhaps how little we had to show from the outlay.


FFP isn’t fit for purpose and needs to be radically altered so that the FL are able to take action in real time not 3 or 4 years down the road. Seems utterly ludicrous that Reading, after being done last season, look like being done again for something that happened last season or earlier when it should have been done last season. If altering FFP means the FL have to monitor daily every single footballing transaction and player contract made by every single league club then so be it, better than all these stupid, confusing and delayed actions springing up at club’s doors years after personnel may have moved on.

Desperately need an independent regulator covering the FL, NL and PL, which all spending goes through.

None of this 'clubs regulate themselves' nonsense. Caps on wages and spending vs income. Deficit spending must be short term and balanced by profitable years.

Rebalance money down the pyramid and into community projects. End super rich players and tight regulation for all agents, image rights, sponsorships. Ban on trade between clubs under the same ownership and owner's companies sponsoring their clubs. Ban on clubs selling off their (in use) stadia and training grounds to third parties and especially other companies under the same owners and forced reintegration of already sold assets owned by owners.

Stranded
Hob Nob Subscriber
Hob Nob Subscriber
Posts: 19582
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 12:42
Location: Propping up the bar in the Nags

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Stranded » 21 Mar 2023 08:29

Sutekh
tmesis
Snowflake Royal How?

The FL have no authority over the owners seperate to the club. And the fans were happy enough to demand spending and ignore the consequences.

We get what we deserve, probably less.

I don't recall too many fans demanding spending.

A large number were openly asking how we could afford our signings.

Overall though, if we gained from the overspending, we can't complain about the punishment, if it's fair. The bigger complaint is perhaps how little we had to show from the outlay.


FFP isn’t fit for purpose and needs to be radically altered so that the FL are able to take action in real time not 3 or 4 years down the road. Seems utterly ludicrous that Reading, after being done last season, look like being done again for something that happened last season or earlier when it should have been done last season. If altering FFP means the FL have to monitor daily every single footballing transaction and player contract made by every single league club then so be it, better than all these stupid, confusing and delayed actions springing up at club’s doors years after personnel may have moved on.


FFP just needs to be changed to allow an owner to pump as much money into the club as they want with the proviso that they can only reclaim a certain amount - say 20m - stops owners loading the club with debt. May see a shift in who wants to own clubs but can only be good for football in the long run.

So nothing to stop a very rich fan of say Rochdale, deciding s/he wants to spend every penny they've earnt turning them into the new Man City if they want.


Mr Angry
Hob Nob Addict
Posts: 5780
Joined: 14 Apr 2004 16:05
Location: South Oxfordshire

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Mr Angry » 21 Mar 2023 08:39

Snowflake Royal
Sutekh
tmesis I don't recall too many fans demanding spending.

A large number were openly asking how we could afford our signings.

Overall though, if we gained from the overspending, we can't complain about the punishment, if it's fair. The bigger complaint is perhaps how little we had to show from the outlay.


FFP isn’t fit for purpose and needs to be radically altered so that the FL are able to take action in real time not 3 or 4 years down the road. Seems utterly ludicrous that Reading, after being done last season, look like being done again for something that happened last season or earlier when it should have been done last season. If altering FFP means the FL have to monitor daily every single footballing transaction and player contract made by every single league club then so be it, better than all these stupid, confusing and delayed actions springing up at club’s doors years after personnel may have moved on.

Desperately need an independent regulator covering the FL, NL and PL, which all spending goes through.

None of this 'clubs regulate themselves' nonsense. Caps on wages and spending vs income. Deficit spending must be short term and balanced by profitable years.

Rebalance money down the pyramid and into community projects. End super rich players and tight regulation for all agents, image rights, sponsorships. Ban on trade between clubs under the same ownership and owner's companies sponsoring their clubs. Ban on clubs selling off their (in use) stadia and training grounds to third parties and especially other companies under the same owners and forced reintegration of already sold assets owned by owners.


Very reasonable points and no disagreement on any of them from me.

I would add another, that teams who broke the rules but got promoted to the Premier League and so missed out on punishment should be punished retrospectively, and more severely, as they would have prospered from their cheating.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 39394
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Snowflake Royal » 21 Mar 2023 08:41

Mr Angry
Snowflake Royal
Sutekh
FFP isn’t fit for purpose and needs to be radically altered so that the FL are able to take action in real time not 3 or 4 years down the road. Seems utterly ludicrous that Reading, after being done last season, look like being done again for something that happened last season or earlier when it should have been done last season. If altering FFP means the FL have to monitor daily every single footballing transaction and player contract made by every single league club then so be it, better than all these stupid, confusing and delayed actions springing up at club’s doors years after personnel may have moved on.

Desperately need an independent regulator covering the FL, NL and PL, which all spending goes through.

None of this 'clubs regulate themselves' nonsense. Caps on wages and spending vs income. Deficit spending must be short term and balanced by profitable years.

Rebalance money down the pyramid and into community projects. End super rich players and tight regulation for all agents, image rights, sponsorships. Ban on trade between clubs under the same ownership and owner's companies sponsoring their clubs. Ban on clubs selling off their (in use) stadia and training grounds to third parties and especially other companies under the same owners and forced reintegration of already sold assets owned by owners.


Very reasonable points and no disagreement on any of them from me.

I would add another, that teams who broke the rules but got promoted to the Premier League and so missed out on punishment should be punished retrospectively, and more severely, as they would have prospered from their cheating.

If we're in one up territory, oxf*rd stranded's ideas. Owners cannot take money out of clubs, and dismantle the PL so it's all one integrated league structure again so you can't escape punishment through promotion.

User avatar
Winston Biscuit
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 33236
Joined: 05 May 2017 07:32
Location: HNA Thought Leader & Influencer

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Winston Biscuit » 21 Mar 2023 09:07

a loosely related football improvement point - I have said before in discussions on the GF section I think all top 5 leagues being national is quite nuts. take it back to being split into north & south leagues, at either L1 or L2 level. make it more manageable for smaller clubs and more games for away fans to travel to

User avatar
Dirk Gently
Hob Nob Super-Addict
Posts: 10775
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 13:54

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Dirk Gently » 21 Mar 2023 09:42

Mr Angry
Snowflake Royal
Sutekh
FFP isn’t fit for purpose and needs to be radically altered so that the FL are able to take action in real time not 3 or 4 years down the road. Seems utterly ludicrous that Reading, after being done last season, look like being done again for something that happened last season or earlier when it should have been done last season. If altering FFP means the FL have to monitor daily every single footballing transaction and player contract made by every single league club then so be it, better than all these stupid, confusing and delayed actions springing up at club’s doors years after personnel may have moved on.

Desperately need an independent regulator covering the FL, NL and PL, which all spending goes through.

None of this 'clubs regulate themselves' nonsense. Caps on wages and spending vs income. Deficit spending must be short term and balanced by profitable years.

Rebalance money down the pyramid and into community projects. End super rich players and tight regulation for all agents, image rights, sponsorships. Ban on trade between clubs under the same ownership and owner's companies sponsoring their clubs. Ban on clubs selling off their (in use) stadia and training grounds to third parties and especially other companies under the same owners and forced reintegration of already sold assets owned by owners.


Very reasonable points and no disagreement on any of them from me.

I would add another, that teams who broke the rules but got promoted to the Premier League and so missed out on punishment should be punished retrospectively, and more severely, as they would have prospered from their cheating.


In principle, yes, but in reality all that would probably happen with that is the club would be forced into administration - times are hard enough after relegation so this would really harm them.

I doubt if it would act as a deterrent - no owner who over-spends to get promotion takes into account what might happen after relegation, and any relegation might be years later with completely different owners. The most likely outcome would be that a PL owner facing the threat of relegation and financial penalties would throw more and more money at the team to try to stay in the PL, and so if they failed the impact of relegation would be even worse.

User avatar
Snowflake Royal
Hob Nob Legend
Posts: 39394
Joined: 20 Jun 2017 17:51

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Snowflake Royal » 21 Mar 2023 10:11

Hence control spending and make the PL fall under the same regs and structure.

3points
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 2452
Joined: 27 Oct 2013 17:22

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by 3points » 21 Mar 2023 18:09

Snowflake Royal
3points
Stranded
I'd be amazed if it is total wages that have stuffed us if it is to do with the business plan and not some issue from 20/21 or earlier.

If it is the business plan then it will have to be some breach of either paying a player too much or we've broken the average of new salaries - i.e. we could pay Player A 8k pw per on average all new signings can only earn 6k pw.

Either that or the losses we can write off are tiny and we have breached as a result.

I'm sure it will be down to interpretation of the fine details. The club thinks one thing is fine, the EFL don't. Happens all the time in the finance world where management take a more optimistic view in an area that requires judgement than the stakeholders take. For example, the club might be saying someone like Carey's wages could be excluded from the £13m P&S loss calculation as it relates wholly to the academy (and therefore it could be deducted) whereas the EFL says his wages cannot be deducted.

The thing is the fans will never really know. IMO there won't be anything really "major" as the club has already agreed a budget with the EFL and the EFL has been sanctioning player transfers. If there was a fundamental issue then why would the EFL have approved the Casadei loan in January? As we saw with Sarr in the summer, approval wasn't given until the Puscas loan had been agreed, so doubt Casadei was dependent on us moving a player out that then didn't happen at the last minute.

The suggestion, speculation or truth, is that the issue is from last season, so any signings this season wouldn't come into this issue if this is accuate.

It won’t be last season. EFL has been all over the club and would have acted sooner. My guess is something has happened since Christmas

Mid Sussex Royal
Hob Nob Regular
Posts: 3248
Joined: 02 Nov 2008 17:56

Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Mid Sussex Royal » 21 Mar 2023 18:44

3points
Snowflake Royal
3points I'm sure it will be down to interpretation of the fine details. The club thinks one thing is fine, the EFL don't. Happens all the time in the finance world where management take a more optimistic view in an area that requires judgement than the stakeholders take. For example, the club might be saying someone like Carey's wages could be excluded from the £13m P&S loss calculation as it relates wholly to the academy (and therefore it could be deducted) whereas the EFL says his wages cannot be deducted.

The thing is the fans will never really know. IMO there won't be anything really "major" as the club has already agreed a budget with the EFL and the EFL has been sanctioning player transfers. If there was a fundamental issue then why would the EFL have approved the Casadei loan in January? As we saw with Sarr in the summer, approval wasn't given until the Puscas loan had been agreed, so doubt Casadei was dependent on us moving a player out that then didn't happen at the last minute.

The suggestion, speculation or truth, is that the issue is from last season, so any signings this season wouldn't come into this issue if this is accuate.

It won’t be last season. EFL has been all over the club and would have acted sooner. My guess is something has happened since Christmas


Ince originally said it was something historic and the business plan since his tenure had been fully adhered to.

The only signing this year was Casadei, and we had to wait for EFL approval for that sign off as it was delayed a few days from memory.

If the EFL had made a decision it would have come out by now...my guess is its not a straightforward case like Wigan...

763 posts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 137 guests

It is currently 28 Mar 2024 14:06