Points Deduction AGAIN

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Mr Angry
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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Mr Angry » 16 Mar 2023 15:30

windermereROYAL When is the deadline for it to happen this season?


March 23rd has been quoted in relation to Huddersfield (the date was brought in to prevent teams who were definitely relegated choosing to then go into administration and take the points deduction immediately rather than begin the following season with the deduction), so it makes sense that it relates to us as well.

Though that is far too logical a step for the EFL so in truth, no-one really knows!

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Brogue » 16 Mar 2023 16:17

i believe the march 23rd deadline is for things that happened this season, as ours relates to a previous seasons misdemeanors it can be applied any time.

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 16 Mar 2023 16:24

blythspartan
Stranded The noise out of the club seems to have shifted from "it's a done deal" to "we just don't know" so maybe something has changed.

Alan Nixon, who isn't always on the ball but often is, seems to suggest it is going to a panel to decide the outcome which suggests we haven't come to an agreement or the issue isn't covered by the automatic application of 6 points.


Did QPR go to a panel a few years ago and they ended up with a big fine?


They ended up with a £20m fine, which they are still paying for.

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Mid Sussex Royal » 16 Mar 2023 19:43

Stranded The noise out of the club seems to have shifted from "it's a done deal" to "we just don't know" so maybe something has changed.

Alan Nixon, who isn't always on the ball but often is, seems to suggest it is going to a panel to decide the outcome which suggests we haven't come to an agreement or the issue isn't covered by the automatic application of 6 points.


Yes, Ince's language has changed considerably from "definite 6 points deduction next week" after Boro to being unsure yesterday.

Wasn't Dai at the Millwall game? Maybe he's got lawyers/accountants involved....

As above, hopefully the case isn't as clear cut as the Mail first said it was...that's certainly plausible given what Ince said about historic offences pre his tenure

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by TiagoIlori » 16 Mar 2023 21:25

New accounts for the 21/22 season are out on the companies house.


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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Elm Park Kid » 16 Mar 2023 23:23

We lost £95m in the last 3 seasons. Including 17.3m last season.

The P&S target is £39m over 3 seasons. £13m a season.

Even following the EFL plan and being under a transfer embargo will still missed our allowed losses by £4.3m. And that was only because we sold Olise - otherwise we would have missed them by £12.3m!

This is way we are probably still non-compliant this season and why the EFL is on our arse.

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tmesis
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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by tmesis » 16 Mar 2023 23:41

Elm Park Kid We lost £95m in the last 3 seasons. Including 17.3m last season.

The P&S target is £39m over 3 seasons. £13m a season.

Even following the EFL plan and being under a transfer embargo will still missed our allowed losses by £4.3m. And that was only because we sold Olise - otherwise we would have missed them by £12.3m!

This is way we are probably still non-compliant this season and why the EFL is on our arse.

We'd need to be in breach of the agreed plan though, and if the agreed plan allowed us to still run up a massive loss, which they then punish us for, then it's a pretty stupid plan.

And it's already been said that it's not for anyhting this season.

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Mid Sussex Royal » 17 Mar 2023 07:40

Anyone know what's in the business plan re last year's financials?

And if we're being done for a new FFP breach (as are still well over £13m on 4 year rolling average) are we facing this every year for a bit?

Our one good yea,r a small profit from circa 2017, has just dropped off the other end re the rolling average...

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 17 Mar 2023 08:33

I think it relates to the wage bill, it was at just over £25m for last season where it needed to be around £21.5m as agreed in the Business Plan.

The fact we've still posted losses of £17.3m, including the £8m sale of Olise, is not good either.

Not only that but I don't know how we will have managed to get our wage bill down by nearly £10m for the year this season either considering we haven't lost that many big earners other than Swift.


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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by RG30 » 17 Mar 2023 09:10

Rafael would have been another on good wages?

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 17 Mar 2023 09:20

RG30 Rafael would have been another on good wages?


I'm assuming he will have come off the accounts just published as he left in January last season.

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Mid Sussex Royal » 17 Mar 2023 10:00

YorkshireRoyal99 I think it relates to the wage bill, it was at just over £25m for last season where it needed to be around £21.5m as agreed in the Business Plan.

The fact we've still posted losses of £17.3m, including the £8m sale of Olise, is not good either.

Not only that but I don't know how we will have managed to get our wage bill down by nearly £10m for the year this season either considering we haven't lost that many big earners other than Swift.


Swift was still on the books for the financials just published.

Goes back to summer 21 - so Aluko, Baldock? That would have been a fair chunk off the books

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by YorkshireRoyal99 » 17 Mar 2023 10:13

Mid Sussex Royal
YorkshireRoyal99 I think it relates to the wage bill, it was at just over £25m for last season where it needed to be around £21.5m as agreed in the Business Plan.

The fact we've still posted losses of £17.3m, including the £8m sale of Olise, is not good either.

Not only that but I don't know how we will have managed to get our wage bill down by nearly £10m for the year this season either considering we haven't lost that many big earners other than Swift.


Swift was still on the books for the financials just published.

Goes back to summer 21 - so Aluko, Baldock? That would have been a fair chunk off the books


Sorry - the last bit was actually referring to what our accounts will look like in a year's time.

Yeah it seems we've had quite a significant drop coming off our wage bill for this season, but it will have to be an even greater drop for next season.

Although a lot of talk that we may have still got to the agreed business plan for this season as not everything counts towards FFP/P&S calculations, so I suppose we sit tight and see what happens.


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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Stranded » 17 Mar 2023 10:58

Elm Park Kid We lost £95m in the last 3 seasons. Including 17.3m last season.

The P&S target is £39m over 3 seasons. £13m a season.

Even following the EFL plan and being under a transfer embargo will still missed our allowed losses by £4.3m. And that was only because we sold Olise - otherwise we would have missed them by £12.3m!

This is way we are probably still non-compliant this season and why the EFL is on our arse.


For P&S reasons, pretty much all of the above is wrong.

The target is 39m over 3 years (or 4 currently as 2 years of Covid treated as 1), however, due to the agreed decision, the first 2 periods of the current reporting period were capped at 13m per season once we accepted the punishment.

That means we could only lose 13m last season and meet the plan. We lost 17.3 but this is before P&S deductions - the club can deduct 2.5m as COVID relief plus costs of running the academy/womens team and a whole raft of other items.

So after the COVID relief, we had to find deductions of 1.8m, which should be more that achievable via those deductions - so if we have breached, it won't be by much - though in our situation, any breach however minor is likely to be major.

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Winston Biscuit » 17 Mar 2023 11:01

Stranded
Elm Park Kid We lost £95m in the last 3 seasons. Including 17.3m last season.

The P&S target is £39m over 3 seasons. £13m a season.

Even following the EFL plan and being under a transfer embargo will still missed our allowed losses by £4.3m. And that was only because we sold Olise - otherwise we would have missed them by £12.3m!

This is way we are probably still non-compliant this season and why the EFL is on our arse.


For P&S reasons, pretty much all of the above is wrong.

The target is 39m over 3 years (or 4 currently as 2 years of Covid treated as 1), however, due to the agreed decision, the first 2 periods of the current reporting period were capped at 13m per season once we accepted the punishment.

That means we could only lose 13m last season and meet the plan. We lost 17.3 but this is before P&S deductions - the club can deduct 2.5m as COVID relief plus costs of running the academy/womens team and a whole raft of other items.

So after the COVID relief, we had to find deductions of 1.8m, which should be more that achievable via those deductions - so if we have breached, it won't be by much - though in our situation, any breach however minor is likely to be major.


apols as I haven't really followed the detail of all this closely, but are you saying we may have breached FFP in our newly released accounts, and also the EFL are potentially looking to impose a points penalty for something in a previous season unrelated to that too?

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Sutekh » 17 Mar 2023 11:47


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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Stranded » 17 Mar 2023 12:18

Winston Biscuit
Stranded
Elm Park Kid We lost £95m in the last 3 seasons. Including 17.3m last season.

The P&S target is £39m over 3 seasons. £13m a season.

Even following the EFL plan and being under a transfer embargo will still missed our allowed losses by £4.3m. And that was only because we sold Olise - otherwise we would have missed them by £12.3m!

This is way we are probably still non-compliant this season and why the EFL is on our arse.


For P&S reasons, pretty much all of the above is wrong.

The target is 39m over 3 years (or 4 currently as 2 years of Covid treated as 1), however, due to the agreed decision, the first 2 periods of the current reporting period were capped at 13m per season once we accepted the punishment.

That means we could only lose 13m last season and meet the plan. We lost 17.3 but this is before P&S deductions - the club can deduct 2.5m as COVID relief plus costs of running the academy/womens team and a whole raft of other items.

So after the COVID relief, we had to find deductions of 1.8m, which should be more that achievable via those deductions - so if we have breached, it won't be by much - though in our situation, any breach however minor is likely to be major.


apols as I haven't really followed the detail of all this closely, but are you saying we may have breached FFP in our newly released accounts, and also the EFL are potentially looking to impose a points penalty for something in a previous season unrelated to that too?


Without seeing the calculation it is possible but given the deductions allowed include Womens Team costs (approx 1.2m), training ground upkeep (approx 300k) then with the COVID relief the academy costs for the year would need to be less than 300k for us to have breached, which is incredibly unlikely.

The only breach I can see, if it relates to the period over the past 2 years, is that we haven't met the wages aspect, which looking at the top line wage costs, also seems unlikely but may come down to semantics at the end of the day.

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by One8Seven1* » 17 Mar 2023 12:56

Anyone know what the current club debt is now? Bearing in mind we no longer own the stadium, land around the stadium, or training ground.

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Stranded » 17 Mar 2023 13:32

One8Seven1* Anyone know what the current club debt is now? Bearing in mind we no longer own the stadium, land around the stadium, or training ground.


If I'm reading the accounts right - the total debt stands at 98m - of which 83m is owed to the owners. This is actually down from 116m last year.

The club is also currently owed 23m, though 19m of that is classed as "amounts owed by group undertakings" so likely money lent to say the Womens team over the years (amongst others).

Again if I am reading it right, and if not am sure someone will correct me, but The Reading Football Club Limited is the full owner of:

Reading FC Community Trust
RFC Bearwood Ltd
Reading Women's Football Club Ltd.

In total those 3 companies lost 2 million, and I think that can all be offset to P&S calcs.

If correct, from that and covid we have 4.5m of losses we can write off from P&S meaning our 17.25m loss becomes a 12.75m loss - bringing us in just under the 13m threshold.

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Re: Points Deduction AGAIN

by Sutekh » 17 Mar 2023 14:40

Stranded
One8Seven1* Anyone know what the current club debt is now? Bearing in mind we no longer own the stadium, land around the stadium, or training ground.


If I'm reading the accounts right - the total debt stands at 98m - of which 83m is owed to the owners. This is actually down from 116m last year.

The club is also currently owed 23m, though 19m of that is classed as "amounts owed by group undertakings" so likely money lent to say the Womens team over the years (amongst others).

Again if I am reading it right, and if not am sure someone will correct me, but The Reading Football Club Limited is the full owner of:

Reading FC Community Trust
RFC Bearwood Ltd
Reading Women's Football Club Ltd.

In total those 3 companies lost 2 million, and I think that can all be offset to P&S calcs.

If correct, from that and covid we have 4.5m of losses we can write off from P&S meaning our 17.25m loss becomes a 12.75m loss - bringing us in just under the 13m threshold.


Ultimately though if Mr Dai chose to write off the debt owed him then I presume the club could basically tell the FL what to do with their FFP restrictions?

Out of interest which company owns the SCL stadium now?

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