Rival Watch

[NathStPaul]

Only one person has no idea here and it isn't Ian....

[Snowflake Royal]

Yeah you’ve made it very clear you don't care about the debt and think it isn't a problem.

[Nameless]

Yeah you’ve made it very clear you don't care about the debt and think it isn't a problem.

No, I’ve pointed out the huge difference between the real debt that is looking likely to drag Derby down and the debt we have. You seem unable to see a difference, and as usual you will refuse to even contemplate a different opinion to your own.
Having debt which you can’t service, or which you can’t repay, is a problem. Derby owe huge sums to external creditors who must be repaid urgently and will enforce legal measures if they aren’t paid. By all accounts they don’t have the means to pay those debts. Buyers don’t want to take on those tens of millions of debt because they are more than the worth of the club. Those debts can’t be avoided, reduced, written off etc etc without pretty terminal consequences.
We don’t owe money that has to be repaid in the short term, or to anyone who is likely to demand repayment. There is probably no prospect of the Yongges getting their money back either by demanding repayment or selling the club. The problem we face is the Yongges simply deciding they want to stop investing. If they did that we would be in trouble because our income doesn’t match our outgoings and then we’re would start incurring debtto HMRC, struggling to pay players etc. That would be what pushed us into administration, not the debt to the owner. So we could end up n the same situation as Derby (as could many clubs) but as things stand the situation is very different.

[WestYorksRoyal]

Except to the owners... and it's larger.

It’s any irrelevancy.
Debt to HMRC, to your players, to other football clubs kills you.
Owing money to yourself is extremely unlikely to close you down. If the owners decided to cut ties the amount of money they owed themselves woukdn’t really matter.

Of course it would. They'd want it back.

It either hykes the price or becomes debt to an outside creditor.

Even SJM tried to recover some of the money he'd pumped in on selling.

They wouldn't simply be able to get it back though; it's junior, unsecured debt. They would have to liquidate the club and they would only get back what's left after all our other creditors including players, staff, match day suppliers etc.

Derby are different. They owe serious money to HMRC, other football clubs and some senior, secured loans. If these guys call in their debts, they take precedence over wages, match day costs and other working capital. HMRC in particular is a killer; the law changed a couple of years ago to make their debt more senior as they were fed up of getting scraps from football clubs in crisis.

But agree with the sentiment that if the owners have enough of funding our losses, we could become more like Derby.

[Stranded]

Of course it would. They'd want it back.

It either hykes the price or becomes debt to an outside creditor.

Even SJM tried to recover some of the money he'd pumped in on selling.

Haven't the owners turned a lot of the debt into shares? In which case it becomes a straight negotiation between buyer and seller i.e. a controlling majority will cost you X per share.

When you are in debt to external companies it becomes much more tricky as there are multiple parties who would need to be as happy as possible with the funds they are getting esp. if the club has gone into admin.

So did Madejski, which pushed the price up.

So as I said, the price becomes a negotiation point between the buyer and seller as there is apparanently little to no outside debt. So a very different situation to Derby. My only real concern at the moment is the fact that the club don't own the stadium but Leeds were also in that situation once upon a time and now own it again.

[WestYorksRoyal]

Haven't the owners turned a lot of the debt into shares? In which case it becomes a straight negotiation between buyer and seller i.e. a controlling majority will cost you X per share.

When you are in debt to external companies it becomes much more tricky as there are multiple parties who would need to be as happy as possible with the funds they are getting esp. if the club has gone into admin.

So did Madejski, which pushed the price up.

So as I said, the price becomes a negotiation point between the buyer and seller as there is apparanently little to no outside debt. So a very different situation to Derby. My only real concern at the moment is the fact that the club don't own the stadium but Leeds were also in that situation once upon a time and now own it again.

Hate to get into "big club" debates, but if we ever get into a real mess like Leeds we don't have the name, fanbase and history to attract international buyers like them. Same as Sunderland now being owned by a US billionaire.

SJM was a local man who saw opportunity in putting his local area on the map and boosting his profile. Maybe the SCL guys who are season ticket holders could keep us afloat in a crisis, but I'd really rather not find out.

[muirinho]

So did Madejski, which pushed the price up.

So as I said, the price becomes a negotiation point between the buyer and seller as there is apparanently little to no outside debt. So a very different situation to Derby. My only real concern at the moment is the fact that the club don't own the stadium but Leeds were also in that situation once upon a time and now own it again.

Hate to get into "big club" debates, but if we ever get into a real mess like Leeds we don't have the name, fanbase and history to attract international buyers like them. Same as Sunderland now being owned by a US billionaire.

SJM was a local man who saw opportunity in putting his local area on the map and boosting his profile. Maybe the SCL guys who are season ticket holders could keep us afloat in a crisis, but I'd really rather not find out.

Scenario 1 - Yongges are insane, and keep pumping money into the club. Debt owed by club to Yongge family is irrelevant, as is ownership of the stadium.

Scenario 2 - Yongges decide to stop funding the club. Outgoings exceed incomings - no money coming in from owners, so outside debt has to be secured. This is basically what happened to Derby, and would get us into trouble quickly. Club would probably go into administration while looking for a buyer.

Scenario 3 - Yongges decide they don't want to keep pumping money into the club. They maintain funding while looking for a buyer, and write off a large whack of their debt to achieve the sale. Stadium would probably be part of the sale.

So as some have already said on this thread, and others refuse to believe, we are absolutely fine as long as Yongges remain committed to the club. If they decide to sell, but maintain funding while looking for a buyer, then we are also fine. Clock will start again with new owners in terms of what funding they want to commit. Effectively they are buying the name of the club, there are no assets to speak of, but that is the case for virtually every football club. Basically we'd be talking about the same exact three scenarios for the new owners, but without any knowledge of what those new owners are like.

We're in trouble if the Yongges lose interest in the club, or have financial problems elsewhere, and won't/can't keep funding it - and they also are unrealistic in terms of how much of their money they can claw back in a sale, so selling the club drags on for ages, with the club spiralling deeper into outside debt, and becoming more unattractive to buyers by the minute.

So, yeah, we're relying on the Yongges. But this is true regardless of whether the club currently has debt or not - as long as outgoings exceed incomings.

The only scenario where we are not completely relying on the owners is if the club goes bust, and re-forms at the bottom of the pyramid, and claws its way back again. In that case, the likelihood of ever having a club that gets out of the Conference, is slim to none.

That is the reality of football outside the top half of the Premier League.

[WestYorksRoyal]

So as I said, the price becomes a negotiation point between the buyer and seller as there is apparanently little to no outside debt. So a very different situation to Derby. My only real concern at the moment is the fact that the club don't own the stadium but Leeds were also in that situation once upon a time and now own it again.

Hate to get into "big club" debates, but if we ever get into a real mess like Leeds we don't have the name, fanbase and history to attract international buyers like them. Same as Sunderland now being owned by a US billionaire.

SJM was a local man who saw opportunity in putting his local area on the map and boosting his profile. Maybe the SCL guys who are season ticket holders could keep us afloat in a crisis, but I'd really rather not find out.

The only scenario where we are not completely relying on the owners is if the club goes bust, and re-forms at the bottom of the pyramid, and claws its way back again. In that case, the likelihood of ever having a club that gets out of the Conference, is slim to none.

That is the reality of football outside the top half of the Premier League.

Aldershot made it back to the football league; AFC Wimbledon have stabilised in L1 with a new stadium. We'd be capable of bouncing back.

[tidus_mi2]

Agree, while I'm not particularly interested in talking about a phoenix club situation, I can't see how we wouldn't recover to League Two level at the absolute minimum, I would expect to reach League One but that could be a big roadblock as the likes of Sunderland, Portsmouth, Ipswich and Charlton have found out.

[muirinho]

Agree, while I'm not particularly interested in talking about a phoenix club situation, I can't see how we wouldn't recover to League Two level at the absolute minimum, I would expect to reach League One but that could be a big roadblock as the likes of Sunderland, Portsmouth, Ipswich and Charlton have found out.

As a self-sustaining club? Not sure we could, as far as I know, the vast majority of clubs in League 1 and League 2 lose money.

e.g., this is a link about Aldershot's financial woes.
https://www.farnhamherald.com/article.c ... hyear=2019

Sure, we could get back with a committed owner pumping in money - but then we'd be still in the state where we're relying on the owner's goodwill all the time.

AFC Wimbledon have managed it - but it's a big ask.

[muirinho]

Edit: Not sure why, but my post went through twice. Ignore this one!

[CountryRoyal]

You could just delete it.

[Stranded]

So did Madejski, which pushed the price up.

So as I said, the price becomes a negotiation point between the buyer and seller as there is apparanently little to no outside debt. So a very different situation to Derby. My only real concern at the moment is the fact that the club don't own the stadium but Leeds were also in that situation once upon a time and now own it again.

Hate to get into "big club" debates, but if we ever get into a real mess like Leeds we don't have the name, fanbase and history to attract international buyers like them. Same as Sunderland now being owned by a US billionaire.

SJM was a local man who saw opportunity in putting his local area on the map and boosting his profile. Maybe the SCL guys who are season ticket holders could keep us afloat in a crisis, but I'd really rather not find out.

We attracted a billionaire international buyer when the club was last sold didn't we? In fact since ,SJM sold we have only been sold to international buyers - and after the Zingarevich period we were in a right mess. Not Derby standards but selling players to cover tax bills bad.

We are not a name but what Reading has going for it is location - both for international travel and (and this is key) we have a pretty massive catchment area to draw from if we are successful - we may not have 50k rabid fans but a new owner would know that if we could get up and stabilise in the PL, we could extend the stadium to 38k and likely get 30-35k most games with sell outs when the big clubs come in.

Foreign owners will always just see the pound signs associated with the PL - not if we won the League a few times in the 70s.

[Coppells Lost Coat]

Worry about that if it ever happens. I am not going to shit the bed on hypothetical scenarios.
I support the football team not the clubs financial situation or liabilities.
Most clubs are dependent on owners wealth these days.

[muirinho]

You could just delete it.

I would if I could work out how!

[genome]

You could just delete it.

You can only delete posts up until someone replies, after that you can only edit them

So you've stitched muirinho up there

[CountryRoyal]

You could just delete it.

You can only delete posts up until someone replies, after that you can only edit them

So you've stitched muirinho up there

Oh yeah true. I thought you could delete it unless someone quoted it. Oops. Kinda catch 22 there.

For future reference muirnho at the bottom of your post there should be a little Red Cross which allows you delete it (unless as genome rightly says someone doesn’t post afterwards).

[Mr Angry]

Revealed today that Derby owe £15M to a US Investment fund called MSD Holdings; the fund have announced that they hold collateral worth more than the principle and interest.

In other words, they have a call on the only tangible asset Derby have - Pride Park.

Any new owners will have to pay that debt off or else risk the US firm demanding that they sell the ground in order to pay them back.

What a mess!

[Nameless]

Revealed today that Derby owe £15M to a US Investment fund called MSD Holdings; the fund have announced that they hold collateral worth more than the principle and interest.

In other words, they have a call on the only tangible asset Derby have - Pride Park.

Any new owners will have to pay that debt off or else risk the US firm demanding that they sell the ground in order to pay them back.

What a mess!

Is this the same ground that Derby sold to Mel Morris for £80 million a few years ago ? How do you borrow money against an asset you don’t own ?
Surely if the loan was taken out before the sold it the loan should have been repaid ?

[Stranded]

Revealed today that Derby owe £15M to a US Investment fund called MSD Holdings; the fund have announced that they hold collateral worth more than the principle and interest.

In other words, they have a call on the only tangible asset Derby have - Pride Park.

Any new owners will have to pay that debt off or else risk the US firm demanding that they sell the ground in order to pay them back.

What a mess!

Their fans seem convinced that HMRC will cut a deal. They likely will. But 28m is relatively small change to the Treasury so there is a strong argument to write that off and liquidate if necessary if it helps ensure the other 91+ professional clubs pay up.