Hob Nob Anyone?

Probs not miles off yappy, though suspect Kelly would have been on considerably more than Clement or Harriott. And would have expected Aluko to be higher than Edwards and nearer 20k

Seem to remember reading that Van den Berg has on £7,500 a week

Nameless wrote:

paultheroyal wrote:

From Despair To Where? wrote:
Only in the sense that they were two 3rd or 4th choice squad players who left because they wanted guaranteed first team football, despite the club offering them improved deals. In both cases, the player chose to leave. It's really not that difficult to understand.

Still, if we do get the £1.3m sell on, that's £7650 for every minute he played for us in the Championship.

I understand that part alright, its more to the point that our talent network, management etc do not see the talent and willing to let them go, but happily keep on the likes of many other failed academy products.

We weren’t WILLING to let them go, they turned down contracts to go. You can’t stop an out of contract player leaving, it’s not 1962 anymore.....

Antonio was not picked or played enough, obvious talent despite falling over the ball. Similar could be said for Stacey, not made to feel the future was here.....

Its 2019...

Are you suggesting that in 2012, Antonio warranted being picked in the Premiership ahead of McAnuff, McCleary, Robson-Kanu and Kebe?

He chose to take a step back to the Championship, where he felt he couldn't get regular games, which incidentally was still a league above where he had played the bulk of his career.

Had we not gone up in 2012, he would have got much more game time with us. I would liken him more to Johnny Hayes who had to take a couple of steps back after we got promoted to finally see his career take off. From what I see, a victim of circumstance rather than any lack of faith in him.

that^^^

he was played exactly as often as he deserved to, based on how he played when he did get chances to play. just like simon cox.
just because a year or so later he turned into a very good player who went on to surpass the team he left doesn't mean he should have played back then.

From Despair To Where? wrote:Are you suggesting that in 2012, Antonio warranted being picked in the Premiership ahead of McAnuff, McCleary, Robson-Kanu and Kebe?

He chose to take a step back to the Championship, where he felt he couldn't get regular games, which incidentally was still a league above where he had played the bulk of his career.

Had we not gone up in 2012, he would have got much more game time with us. I would liken him more to Johnny Hayes who had to take a couple of steps back after we got promoted to finally see his career take off. From what I see, a victim of circumstance rather than any lack of faith in him.

The obvious answer is we wouldn't have had to sign Nick Blackman in January and give him 11 PL games, if we hadn't got rid of Antonio.
Similar lower league record to Antonio and played in the same position. Signed for far more money than we received for Antonio.

Clear and obvious error from the club, and just because it's standard practice to focus entirely on the short term and let youth players stagnate/leave does not mean it's the correct thing to do.

I saw someone on Twitter celebrating that we could now use our Stacey money to pay Oliviera's wages.

Accurately summed up why Reading find themselves in such a financial mess with no 1st team players.
"Sell low, rent high!"

P!ssed Off wrote:

From Despair To Where? wrote:Are you suggesting that in 2012, Antonio warranted being picked in the Premiership ahead of McAnuff, McCleary, Robson-Kanu and Kebe?

He chose to take a step back to the Championship, where he felt he couldn't get regular games, which incidentally was still a league above where he had played the bulk of his career.

Had we not gone up in 2012, he would have got much more game time with us. I would liken him more to Johnny Hayes who had to take a couple of steps back after we got promoted to finally see his career take off. From what I see, a victim of circumstance rather than any lack of faith in him.

The obvious answer is we wouldn't have had to sign Nick Blackman in January and give him 11 PL games, if we hadn't got rid of Antonio.
Similar lower league record to Antonio and played in the same position. Signed for far more money than we received for Antonio.

Clear and obvious error from the club, and just because it's standard practice to focus entirely on the short term and let youth players stagnate/leave does not mean it's the correct thing to do.

Buuuut, it was Antonio's decision to leave. The club did not "get rid" of him.

Antonio was shite for us. Constantly tripped over the ball and when he did have it under control the crowd were more in danger of getting on the end of his crosses than his team mates were.

He needed to leave to develop. Just because he's gone on to have a fairly decent career in the Premier League doesn't change that.

Tbf he still isnt that good, no technical ability whatsoever. His game is basically head down, run and get on the back post for a header. Fair play to him for getting as far as he has.

From Despair To Where? wrote:

P!ssed Off wrote:

From Despair To Where? wrote:Are you suggesting that in 2012, Antonio warranted being picked in the Premiership ahead of McAnuff, McCleary, Robson-Kanu and Kebe?

He chose to take a step back to the Championship, where he felt he couldn't get regular games, which incidentally was still a league above where he had played the bulk of his career.

Had we not gone up in 2012, he would have got much more game time with us. I would liken him more to Johnny Hayes who had to take a couple of steps back after we got promoted to finally see his career take off. From what I see, a victim of circumstance rather than any lack of faith in him.

The obvious answer is we wouldn't have had to sign Nick Blackman in January and give him 11 PL games, if we hadn't got rid of Antonio.
Similar lower league record to Antonio and played in the same position. Signed for far more money than we received for Antonio.

Clear and obvious error from the club, and just because it's standard practice to focus entirely on the short term and let youth players stagnate/leave does not mean it's the correct thing to do.

Buuuut, it was Antonio's decision to leave. The club did not "get rid" of him.

He wanted to leave because we weren't going to give him any game time...
"Yeah, but we couldn't give him any game time because he chose to leave."
Getting nowhere here...

sandman wrote:Antonio was shite for us. Constantly tripped over the ball and when he did have it under control the crowd were more in danger of getting on the end of his crosses than his team mates were.

He needed to leave to develop. Just because he's gone on to have a fairly decent career in the Premier League doesn't change that.

Tbf he still isnt that good, no technical ability whatsoever. His game is basically head down, run and get on the back post for a header. Fair play to him for getting as far as he has.

I think I agree. He had the raw talent but when he was here, we were pushing for top 6/ top 2 most of the time. Unfortunately, as much as I'd liked us to, we didn't have the opportunity to nurture someone who had so many basic deficiencies in his game whilst trying to stay competitive. Him dropping down to league one really helped his career but even when he got promoted with Wednesday, they thought he wasn't quite good enough for the Championship

I think deep down whilst I wish we'd have kept Stacey/Antonio/now Kelly, sometimes they simply have to leave to develop as a player. That is certainly the case for Antonio. Maybe not Stacey. But it's certainly illogical to suggest they definitely would have "made it" had they stayed here to develop

sandman wrote:Antonio was shite for us. Constantly tripped over the ball and when he did have it under control the crowd were more in danger of getting on the end of his crosses than his team mates were.

He needed to leave to develop. Just because he's gone on to have a fairly decent career in the Premier League doesn't change that.

Tbf he still isnt that good, no technical ability whatsoever. His game is basically head down, run and get on the back post for a header. Fair play to him for getting as far as he has.

It's fair for fans to base their judgement on players from what they see of them at the Madejski on a Saturday.
At the point he left Antonio had had multiple successful loan spells and the club clearly underestimated his potential and lost out on a lot of money and a good player.

"He needed to leave to develop" is a classic line but rather than exonerating a club, it is a damning indictment.

I am not sure there has ever been a time when it's been impossible to integrate a talented youngster in to the 1st team. Even the 05/06 team you can't really say Hayes and Simon Cox were a victim of circumstance.
We couldn't have given the dreadful Eric Obinna Chukwunyelu's 6 league appearances to SImon Cox?
We couldn't have shaved a few games off the shite John Oster's 33 league appearances and given a few to Hayes?

P!ssed Off wrote:

sandman wrote:Antonio was shite for us. Constantly tripped over the ball and when he did have it under control the crowd were more in danger of getting on the end of his crosses than his team mates were.

He needed to leave to develop. Just because he's gone on to have a fairly decent career in the Premier League doesn't change that.

Tbf he still isnt that good, no technical ability whatsoever. His game is basically head down, run and get on the back post for a header. Fair play to him for getting as far as he has.

It's fair for fans to base their judgement on players from what they see of them at the Madejski on a Saturday.
At the point he left Antonio had had multiple successful loan spells and the club clearly underestimated his potential and lost out on a lot of money and a good player.

"He needed to leave to develop" is a classic line but rather than exonerating a club, it is a damning indictment.

I am not sure there has ever been a time when it's been impossible to integrate a talented youngster in to the 1st team. Even the 05/06 team you can't really say Hayes and Simon Cox were a victim of circumstance.
We couldn't have given the dreadful Eric Obinna Chukwunyelu's 6 league appearances to SImon Cox?
We couldn't have shaved a few games off the shite John Oster's 33 league appearances and given a few to Hayes?

Thought we integrated Shane Long quite well that season though.

P!ssed Off wrote:

From Despair To Where? wrote:

P!ssed Off wrote:
The obvious answer is we wouldn't have had to sign Nick Blackman in January and give him 11 PL games, if we hadn't got rid of Antonio.
Similar lower league record to Antonio and played in the same position. Signed for far more money than we received for Antonio.

Clear and obvious error from the club, and just because it's standard practice to focus entirely on the short term and let youth players stagnate/leave does not mean it's the correct thing to do.

Buuuut, it was Antonio's decision to leave. The club did not "get rid" of him.

He wanted to leave because we weren't going to give him any game time...
"Yeah, but we couldn't give him any game time because he chose to leave."
Getting nowhere here...

No, we couldn't give him the game time he wanted because we had 4 better players in his position, 3 of which had played significant roles in getting us promoted and the 4th was a new signing who had just been awarded Nottingham Forest's Player of the Season and is still with the club 7 years later.

Does that provide you a moment of clarity? You may be getting nowhere with this but you're very much in the minority.

Stacey is a slightly different proposition I'm that he was nearer a first team place than Antonio and in hindsight would have got some decent game time.

Sutekh wrote:

P!ssed Off wrote:

sandman wrote:Antonio was shite for us. Constantly tripped over the ball and when he did have it under control the crowd were more in danger of getting on the end of his crosses than his team mates were.

He needed to leave to develop. Just because he's gone on to have a fairly decent career in the Premier League doesn't change that.

Tbf he still isnt that good, no technical ability whatsoever. His game is basically head down, run and get on the back post for a header. Fair play to him for getting as far as he has.

It's fair for fans to base their judgement on players from what they see of them at the Madejski on a Saturday.
At the point he left Antonio had had multiple successful loan spells and the club clearly underestimated his potential and lost out on a lot of money and a good player.

"He needed to leave to develop" is a classic line but rather than exonerating a club, it is a damning indictment.

I am not sure there has ever been a time when it's been impossible to integrate a talented youngster in to the 1st team. Even the 05/06 team you can't really say Hayes and Simon Cox were a victim of circumstance.
We couldn't have given the dreadful Eric Obinna Chukwunyelu's 6 league appearances to SImon Cox?
We couldn't have shaved a few games off the shite John Oster's 33 league appearances and given a few to Hayes?

Thought we integrated Shane Long quite well that season though.

Hayes only really flourished after he moved to Scotland. He struggled to get game time at Leicester in League 1. Likewise, Cox had to drop down to League 1 to get regular football.

Seriously not sure how this is a discussion - clubs make decisions based on how a player is doing at that time and how they fit in with the first team. If a manager believes there is one or two players that will block that players path because they are doing well (or perhaps still have some credit in the bank if having a rougher time) then it is only right that those players move on.

The fact that this rather tired argument only ever really brings up Stacey and Antonio as examples of the club getting wrong shows that the club generally get it right when younger players leave.

Stacey leaving was a bit of a sliding doors moment for him - if he had stayed he may well have got a few games here and there but was he ready at that point to play week in, week out at Championship level? Probably not, and the fact that he dropped 2 levels to get minutes (and there was no interest from Champ or L1) shows that he probably wasn't quite there. He may well have ended up with 20 or 30 apps for us and moved on to a L1 club due to not quite being ready 2 years ago.

Playing at a level where he was one of the better players and then at a higher level - and in a successful team - are what have helped get to the PL. If he had gone to Exeter or another L2 club who are still there, chances are he would still be in L2 or poss L1 as a talented player in a winning side will nearly always stand a better chance of a big move than a talented player in an average side.

P!ssed Off wrote:

From Despair To Where? wrote:Are you suggesting that in 2012, Antonio warranted being picked in the Premiership ahead of McAnuff, McCleary, Robson-Kanu and Kebe?

He chose to take a step back to the Championship, where he felt he couldn't get regular games, which incidentally was still a league above where he had played the bulk of his career.

Had we not gone up in 2012, he would have got much more game time with us. I would liken him more to Johnny Hayes who had to take a couple of steps back after we got promoted to finally see his career take off. From what I see, a victim of circumstance rather than any lack of faith in him.

The obvious answer is we wouldn't have had to sign Nick Blackman in January and give him 11 PL games, if we hadn't got rid of Antonio.
Similar lower league record to Antonio and played in the same position. Signed for far more money than we received for Antonio.

Clear and obvious error from the club, and just because it's standard practice to focus entirely on the short term and let youth players stagnate/leave does not mean it's the correct thing to do.

This was done to death years ago, so no point explaining why it's wrong again.

P!ssed Off wrote:

From Despair To Where? wrote:Are you suggesting that in 2012, Antonio warranted being picked in the Premiership ahead of McAnuff, McCleary, Robson-Kanu and Kebe?

He chose to take a step back to the Championship, where he felt he couldn't get regular games, which incidentally was still a league above where he had played the bulk of his career.

Had we not gone up in 2012, he would have got much more game time with us. I would liken him more to Johnny Hayes who had to take a couple of steps back after we got promoted to finally see his career take off. From what I see, a victim of circumstance rather than any lack of faith in him.

The obvious answer is we wouldn't have had to sign Nick Blackman in January and give him 11 PL games, if we hadn't got rid of Antonio.
Similar lower league record to Antonio and played in the same position. Signed for far more money than we received for Antonio.

Clear and obvious error from the club, and just because it's standard practice to focus entirely on the short term and let youth players stagnate/leave does not mean it's the correct thing to do.

Small but probably very important point.

Michail Antonio joined Sheff Wed on a permanent deal on the 6th August 2012. We had just won the Championship having won 17 of our last 19 games and he was a way down the pecking order because of that run and the form of the wingers ahead of him. We then signed Garath McLeary - which I don't think anyone would think was a mistake.

So with Kebe, McAnuff, Robson-Kanu, and McLeary ahead of him and an emerging Obita who could also play on the wing - there was little to no chance in him playing. The only mistake you could argue was not letting him go on loan rather than on a perm but letting him move was the right move at that time.

Broxroyal wrote:Stam and his staff moved on Stacey, Fosu, Tanner and Jules because they felt they wouldn't make it at our level. All of them were under contract and could have stayed but accepted that it was better to move on.
You could reasonably argue that the club got three right and one wrong.
In Stacey's case he returned from loan at Exeter hoping to push for a place at right back, having previously been a right winger, but found that the club had accepted an offer for him. He had a long think about what to do, as he had been at Reading since he was a kid, and decided to make the move. He did not agitate for a move.

Fosu should have been kept over Harriott

Stacey should have been kept over Popa and Aluko (could also make the case for him filling Bacuna's role).

Tanner should have been kept over Clement.

Jules needed to be moved on.

Despite Tevreden's remarks we've replaced an awful lot of promising players with bench-warming mediocrities.

I understand people talking about Stacey and Antonio being bad decisions, but Johnny Hayes??? The guy still has done absolutely nothing. We've seen for years top players in the SPL come to the English championship and look distinctly average, or top Championship players go to Scotland and end up the leagues top scorer. The league is dreadful, its comfortable for underachieving players to go to Celtic and just boost their stats and look like world beaters. Hayes isn't even a regular for Celtic either. He was never upto it and I don't even think he'd have any impact for a lower championship team given how physical the division is.