MATCHWATCH : Bristol Rovers (a)

[Snowball]

I'd argue the person making the positive assertion has the burden of evidence.

Ie that getting players to stand in front of fans and take dogs abuse is positive.

You’d argue absolutely anything

OH, NO HE WOULDN'T!!

OH YES HE WOULD!!!

[From Despair To Where?]

Argument, in the sense of:
Noun - a reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory.

Ambiguity, the curse of the internet !
It still seems reasonable to suggest that a decision put forward as being bad might not actually have been bad over the longer term.
The appointment of Selles would have been considered bad by many, but has proved to be pretty good. Just shows you have to give some things time to work through and just because someone decrees something bad when it happens they may have to accept later that it was ok.

Yeah, bloody duality of language!

It's not that the concept of going over to the fans and acknowledging them, even when things aren't going well is wrong. It's that there is a time and a place when it's counter productive and harmful to do it.

Yes, the general ethos of doing it was right from the start. Continuing to do it, especially with the young few pros, when things got particularly bad, and the fans had no one else to vent their feelings to was not helpful or positive, short, medium or longer term.

I don't think there can be any credibility to an argume... rationale that persisting with it when the fans were dishing out dogs abuse in frustration, anger and worry helped get to the better end point.

At best it may have had no impact, but more likely it temporarily contributed to holding us back.

And all the whiny little bitching in the world from FDTW about me doesn't make that any less solid an argume... rationale.

Whiny little bitching?

LOL.

It's a fairly gentle HNA meme yet you bite pretty much every time.

[Crusader Royal]

Yeah, bloody duality of language!

It's not that the concept of going over to the fans and acknowledging them, even when things aren't going well is wrong. It's that there is a time and a place when it's counter productive and harmful to do it.

Yes, the general ethos of doing it was right from the start. Continuing to do it, especially with the young few pros, when things got particularly bad, and the fans had no one else to vent their feelings to was not helpful or positive, short, medium or longer term.

I don't think there can be any credibility to an argume... rationale that persisting with it when the fans were dishing out dogs abuse in frustration, anger and worry helped get to the better end point.

At best it may have had no impact, but more likely it temporarily contributed to holding us back.

And all the whiny little bitching in the world from FDTW about me doesn't make that any less solid an argume... rationale.

I think determining whether a concept has credibility needs a bit of evidence rather than just stating that because it’s what you think then it must be right !
There are endless situations where people are exposed to tough situations and by experiencing them they come out stronger.
There’s nothing to suggest any of our youngsters have been broken by their experience. If anything they appear to have a strong team bond, respect for the manager and a connection with the fans we’ve not seen for a long time.
It’s speculation at best to say a few minutes of being shouted at had had a negative effect. I don’t know if it has, but them I’m not dismissing the alternative out of hand !
Selles will have seen the response of players in the dressing room, the next day in training and by all accounts he’s strong on the man management side.
Wel’ll not know unless one day a (former) players pipes up and says how negative it was but it was neither illogical nor unprecedented.

I'd argue the person making the positive assertion has the burden of evidence.

Ie that getting players to stand in front of fans and take dogs abuse is positive.

Well if you care to read my post I have at least attempted to provide some thoughts as to why it may have been positive over the season !
I don’t think many HNA discussions hinge on ‘evidence’ though, being the one who shouts loudest seems how these things get settled (he says in a calm and level tone )

[Snowball]

MANAGER:

Guys, these fans are here for us. Today we let ourselves down.

We could just slip away down the tunnel and pretend we just
never had the rub of the green, or we could man up, admit we
didn't put in 100%, didn't go the extra yard.

I want you to go and THANK the fans!

I know you don't WANT to, but OWN this.

They may well scream at you, because THEY are hurting
just like you are hurting, and I am hurting, but, as I say,
we have to own our responsibility, face the fans, maybe
face down the fans.

You will hate the next ten minutes, but in 3-4-5 months
you will thank me, and those jeering fans will love you.

[Franchise FC]

I'd argue the person making the positive assertion has the burden of evidence.

Ie that getting players to stand in front of fans and take dogs abuse is positive.

You’d argue absolutely anything

OH, NO HE WOULDN'T!!

He’s behind you

[From Despair To Where?]

I seem to remember from video clips of the incident, Selles was saying "Have a go at me but cut the players some slack".

The early part of the season was always going to be a struggle with such an inexperienced squad and the upshot of a lot of that flack is that the more experienced players who should be providing the experience guidance and level headedness to see out games haven't been anywhere near the first team since.

I think also the likes of Knibbs, Smith and Wing have really stepped up, Wing, through his individual ability and Knibbs and Smith through their work rate and really shown a great example for the younger players.

[WestYorksRoyal]

I seem to remember from video clips of the incident, Selles was saying "Have a go at me but cut the players some slack".

The upshot of a lot of that flack is that the more experienced players who should be providing the experience guidance and level headedness to see out games haven't been anywhere near the first team since.

Our "experienced" players, defined as those over 30, have been disappointing aside from Yiadom. Button held on to no. 1 for far too long, while Dean and Hutchinson are embarrassments who must collectively have fewer than 60 league minutes since our form improved. The start of the season was really tough for a young squad, but those with more experience didn't stand up and be counted.

[From Despair To Where?]

I've amended my original post but I'll reiterate, players like Knibbs, Wing and Smith are now the older experienced heads and they've really led by example.

Pure speculation on my part but, given Hutchinson's post match interview at Shrewsbury, I wonder if he was chirping in the background.

[WestYorksRoyal]

I've amended my original post but I'll reiterate, players like Knibbs, Wing and Smith are now the older experienced heads and they've really led by example.

Pure speculation on my part but, given Hutchinson's post match interview at Shrewsbury, I wonder if he was chirping in the background.

If you look at the contrast between this season and last it's very believable. Ince kept making excuses about his squad and points deductions; even now he thinks he did a good job and is happy that we only got relegated by 5 points - he can say it's not his fault. Compare that with Selles who hasn't made any excuses. I can totally believe Hutchinson is more in the mold of Ince, making excuses in front of the younger players and not encouraging the team to be accountable. And of course that would rub off on the younger players. Not sure if it's the same for Dean, or if we simply signed a player way past their peak.

[From Despair To Where?]

I don't think it needs to even be saying anything, could be as little as rolling the eyes, or throwing your arms up or even just a look whenever a younger player does anything wrong; a creeping negativity. He was pretty damning and it felt like it had been stewing.

Thing is, I don't think anyone was under any illusions about this season being a steep learning curve for the youngsters and, whilst not all have shone, I don't think any have let us down.

I don't think Dean is a bad player, I wonder if it's more that he's come in and thought he could stroll through League 1 or that he's thought having a team full of youngsters is a ready made excuse if things go wrong and has been complacent.

Or he could just be past it.

[morganb]

I don't think it needs to even be saying anything, could be as little as rolling the eyes, or throwing your arms up or even just a look whenever a younger player does anything wrong; a creeping negativity. Hutchinson was a big prospect at Chelsea but has had a career wrecked by injury. Maybe there's a touch of bitterness, I don't know.

I don't think Dean is a bad player, I wonder if it's more that he's come in and thought he could stroll through League 1 or that he's thought having a team full of youngsters is a ready made excuse if things go wrong and has been complacent.

Or he could just be past it.

Regarding Dean. I vaguely remember someone saying he appeared to be helping out with coaching and pre-match team warm-ups etc. so sounds like there's no fall out with Selles and perhaps that's how he sees his career developing.

[Crusader Royal]

I don't think it needs to even be saying anything, could be as little as rolling the eyes, or throwing your arms up or even just a look whenever a younger player does anything wrong; a creeping negativity. Hutchinson was a big prospect at Chelsea but has had a career wrecked by injury. Maybe there's a touch of bitterness, I don't know.

I don't think Dean is a bad player, I wonder if it's more that he's come in and thought he could stroll through League 1 or that he's thought having a team full of youngsters is a ready made excuse if things go wrong and has been complacent.

Or he could just be past it.

Regarding Dean. I vaguely remember someone saying he appeared to be helping out with coaching and pre-match team warm-ups etc. so sounds like there's no fall out with Selles and perhaps that's how he sees his career developing.

So you are saying what looked like a bad decision to sign him may actually have been a good one as he stepped in when our coaching staff were made redundant….

[Snowflake Royal]

He was a bit redundant when we had Holmes and McIntyre both on about 100 appearances worth of experience, and seven CBs on the books.

But with a main centreback array of just Bindon, Mbengue and Dorsett, its useful having an old hand around on the training ground imo, even if we don’t paeticularly want him playing.