Will we get found out again?

2 world wars, 1 world cup
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Will we get found out again?

by 2 world wars, 1 world cup » 19 Aug 2019 08:00

5-3-2/3-5-2 demolished Cardiff, and we clearly have the players to do it justice.

Stam had only one plan, worked for a time until we were found out, with no plan B.

I'm worried this may work for a short while but at some point it will be effectively neutralised and we'll struggle without another plan.

1) Do we
a) have a second plan and
b) have the players for that plan (eg where are our wingers)?

2) Of course, a team with a plan good enough and players good enough can ideally carry on doing their own thing regardless and force teams to have to react eg Colin is no fool and he tried to respond, but failed. Are we potentially too good anyway to have to worry?

Discuss.

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by WestYorksRoyal » 19 Aug 2019 08:08

This is a new formation with a lot of new players. People who are not paying attention still have us favourites for relegation. Modern scouting will find us out in time, but we've probably got a bit of time to enjoy it.

Plan B is 4-3-3 with Meite, Boye, Olise and possibly Barrett as wide options.

I don't think we'll get the weekly consistency to go up this season with a newly assembled team. But I think this is more to be excited about than the 15/16 false dawn under Clarke. Hopefully next year we can build and be generally awesome. If you're good enough, scouting the system has a limited impact (see 05/06 or Man City today, where in both cases everyone knew/knows the system). I don't think we're at that level yet.

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by Snowflake Royal » 19 Aug 2019 08:08

We've played one league game this way. Impossible to tell if we're going to consistently play this way, regularly change it up or play this way for just specific games.

We've seen this way beat one team.

More games needed to judge anything. Sample of 1 is too small.

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by NewCorkSeth » 19 Aug 2019 08:09

Where are our wingers? Meite, Boye and Barrett. There. Plan B. It used to be our plan A.

We will almost certainly get found out again by someone. Probably Millwall or Blackburn.

One of the interesting things for me was our goals yesterday came from individual moments of skill rather than built up attacking play. That isnt a bad thing in and of itself but I think it means there will be days where Swift, Ejaria, Yiadom, Joao and Puscas all fail to get something to work.

So plan C should be work like hell on set pieces. Defending and attacking set pieces.

And no. We are not good enough to not worry about it.

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by Snowball » 19 Aug 2019 08:10

Meite is a decent winger who can score 10-15 goals a full season
Boye is a very good winger
Yiadom and Richards can play wing (as can Obita)
Swift has played wide, I believe. Wasn't he wide and wreaking havoc second half at Hull?
Can Olise play wing?

Edit (Barrett)


In January we will be doing a swap - Puscas for Messi plus 50 Million
Last edited by Snowball on 19 Aug 2019 08:13, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Will we get found out again?

by Snowball » 19 Aug 2019 08:12

WestYorksRoyal . If you're good enough, scouting the system has a limited impact (see 05/06 or Man City today, where in both cases everyone knew/knows the system). I don't think we're at that level yet.



Agreed, I think Man City would scrape home against us 2-1 in the 93rd minute

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by NewCorkSeth » 19 Aug 2019 08:14

Snowball Meite is a decent winger who can score 10-15 goals a full season
Boye is a very good winger
Yiadom and Richards can play wing (as can Obita)
Swift has played wide, I believe. Wasn't he wide and wreaking havoc second half at Hull?
Can Olise play wing?

Edit (Barrett)


In January we will be doing a swap - Puscas for Messi plus 50 Million

Swift wasnt a winger or a forward against Hull. He was a LCM who drifted around wherever he wanted. It worked well.

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by Hound » 19 Aug 2019 08:16

I still think we can improve massively from set pieces. We've a big side now - Meite, Puscas, Joao (who was bigger than I expected), Moore, Miazga, Blackett, Pele, Morrison, Ejaria - all our 6ft plus and decent in the air.

Swift needs to work on his delivery - some of his corners were good, but a few weren't so much. We really should be causing havoc in the box

Otherwise, we've plenty of players to change our shape. Can easily go 4-3-3 or any variant of that. I worry far less about not being able to change shape than pretty much anything else with this team

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by URZZZZ » 19 Aug 2019 08:43

All this seems so similar to Clarke’s season. Start the first couple of games poorly, make some strong signings and follow that up with a convincing win. I would say we weren’t really ever found out that season, instead I’ve never known a game which has killed confidence as much as that Fulham game, and I genuinely believe had we had held on that game, we would easily have made top 6. Guess we’ll never know

Not sure Stam was too rigid in terms of formation. After Swifts injury, he needed an alternative source of creativity and he seemed to deviate between a 4-3-3 and a 5-3-2. Again, with this example, I wouldn’t say we were “found out”, Stam tried to alter the structure of the team and he miserably failed

Similarly this year, we have a lot of options. If we want to play with wingers, we could play Meite, Boye, Olise, Barrett, maybe even Obita there if he recovers...or we’ve got the formation and style we played yesterday which worked like a treat


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Re: Will we get found out again?

by Ranty McRantface » 19 Aug 2019 09:18

2 world wars, 1 world cup 5-3-2/3-5-2 demolished Cardiff, and we clearly have the players to do it justice.

Stam had only one plan, worked for a time until we were found out, with no plan B.

I'm worried this may work for a short while but at some point it will be effectively neutralised and we'll struggle without another plan.

1) Do we
a) have a second plan and
b) have the players for that plan (eg where are our wingers)?

2) Of course, a team with a plan good enough and players good enough can ideally carry on doing their own thing regardless and force teams to have to react eg Colin is no fool and he tried to respond, but failed. Are we potentially too good anyway to have to worry?

Discuss.


Stam's issue wasn't the formation or way we played. It was that the players were not good enough and bad investments. Whether your team play long ball, short, mixed, through the middle, wide or whatever you need to the right players to execute it and the right balance as a team to play it well as a team. When we lost Danny the engine room was gone and we were essentially trying to drive a ferrarri with 3 wheels, an 80 year old at the wheel and a shit engine.

I don't buy that one formation or particular style is wrong at all. If that were the case no manager would adopt it. Every formation or style has a weakness and strength. It is the manager's job to assess which style and formation will win with the players available. That brings me onto my next point.

There will undoubtedly be attempts from other managers trying to stop us playing 3-5-2 or 5-3-2 as we are capable of executing it to a devasting affect. Gomes, and I would hope most professional managers, would know to either tweak their existing formation or change it before or during the game. We are capable of interchanging players, formations and tactics within the formation. The formation is not just rigid either. The better teams and managers tend to play a different formation for defending and attacking. If you take a cup game like Citeh vs Rochdale (hypothetical) City may line up 4-3-3 but when they attack they would want to dominate and overload so in the attacking half you have more of a 2-5-3. Against better teams it might be more rigid. You get the idea.

So am I worried. No. And I don't think anyone should be. This is how football works. You just need to hope the manager can execute formations, tactical plays and different formations when attacking or defending in a way that will beat the oppo.

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by paultheroyal » 19 Aug 2019 09:33

2 world wars, 1 world cup 5-3-2/3-5-2 demolished Cardiff, and we clearly have the players to do it justice.

Stam had only one plan, worked for a time until we were found out, with no plan B.

I'm worried this may work for a short while but at some point it will be effectively neutralised and we'll struggle without another plan.

1) Do we
a) have a second plan and
b) have the players for that plan (eg where are our wingers)?

2) Of course, a team with a plan good enough and players good enough can ideally carry on doing their own thing regardless and force teams to have to react eg Colin is no fool and he tried to respond, but failed. Are we potentially too good anyway to have to worry?

Discuss.


Maybe we will, maybe we won’t, but who frigging cares.

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by WestYorksRoyal » 19 Aug 2019 10:06

Can we play down comparisons with Clarke's blistering start in 15/16? There are several major differences for me:

1) Nick Blackman had the best 6 weeks of his career, but let's be honest, we all knew at the time it wouldn't last. We found it hilarious when Derby paid us £3m or so in January (the same fee we have agreed for Ejaria). I genuinely think this squad is better and, while there are several players for who injury would be a blow, I can't think of anybody we're reliant upon as we were with Blackman in that run of results.

2) Loanees / composition of the squad. As Ejaria is coming next summer, Miazga, Pele and Boye are the only players without a stake in our club's success or failure. Miazga gave everything last season to help keep us up, so no concerns there. That previous team had Vydra, Ola John and Piazon who barely seemed to care when things got tough. Sa had no appetite to fight either. This is closely related to point 3.

3) Gomes. Have we ever had a manager better at man management and building a good atmosphere? It took Coppell a few years; Gomes did it in a couple of months with a team desperately out of form and seemingly bound for League 1. Early signs are he's doing the same now. I'm not saying he's our best ever manager; everyone has strengths and weaknesses. It seems like he's incredibly good at the man management side of things.

I'm not saying we'll go up. I reckon we're mid table. But I think we will respond to ups and downs and improve through the season. 15/16 was utterly dire after our purple patch ended. I can't see the same happening here, even if we have a game like the Fulham loss.

The one concern, which could have a parallel with that season is of Gomes gets unsettled. We were in a very bad way when he took over; if we are in the top half playing exciting football in November, he could be a very tempting proposition for some of the promotion hopefuls who will be sacking their managers with the club sat in mid table around then. Howe should really be tying him down with a good deal.

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by Lower West » 19 Aug 2019 10:09

2 world wars, 1 world cup Stam had only one plan, worked for a time until we were found out, with no plan B.



Gomes proved yesterday that he is adaptable. Given Yiadom's and Richard's lack of height. The third centre back was the perfect foil for the aerial bombardment from throw in's. With the full backs pushing high up the pitch gave Cardiff problems to deal with at the back.

Don't see us playing 3 at the back. If the opposition arrive at the Madstad playing for a draw with only one striker up front.


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Re: Will we get found out again?

by Hendo » 19 Aug 2019 10:10

WestYorksRoyal Can we play down comparisons with Clarke's blistering start in 15/16? There are several major differences for me:

1) Nick Blackman had the best 6 weeks of his career, but let's be honest, we all knew at the time it wouldn't last. We found it hilarious when Derby paid us £3m or so in January (the same fee we have agreed for Ejaria). I genuinely think this squad is better and, while there are several players for who injury would be a blow, I can't think of anybody we're reliant upon as we were with Blackman in that run of results.

2) Loanees / composition of the squad. As Ejaria is coming next summer, Miazga, Pele and Boye are the only players without a stake in our club's success or failure. Miazga gave everything last season to help keep us up, so no concerns there. That previous team had Vydra, Ola John and Piazon who barely seemed to care when things got tough. Sa had no appetite to fight either. This is closely related to point 3.

3) Gomes. Have we ever had a manager better at man management and building a good atmosphere? It took Coppell a few years; Gomes did it in a couple of months with a team desperately out of form and seemingly bound for League 1. Early signs are he's doing the same now. I'm not saying he's our best ever manager; everyone has strengths and weaknesses. It seems like he's incredibly good at the man management side of things.

I'm not saying we'll go up. I reckon we're mid table. But I think we will respond to ups and downs and improve through the season. 15/16 was utterly dire after our purple patch ended. I can't see the same happening here, even if we have a game like the Fulham loss.

The one concern, which could have a parallel with that season is of Gomes gets unsettled. We were in a very bad way when he took over; if we are in the top half playing exciting football in November, he could be a very tempting proposition for some of the promotion hopefuls who will be sacking their managers with the club sat in mid table around then. Howe should really be tying him down with a good deal.


I can see this happening sooner rather than later.

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by Hound » 19 Aug 2019 10:13

playing 3 at the back does allow you to morph into 3-5-2 or a close variant of it. Even 3-3-4 if we wanted to push Yiadom and Richards (who are both capable of playing as full on wingers) if we needed to

I've always quite liked it as a formation and seems to suit the current line up. Its not great news for those who didn't play yesterday mind you - Rino, Barrett, Baldock, Loader for example aren't a great fit in the starting lineup. You could potentially put Rino in for Pele for a more attacking option though.

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by NewCorkSeth » 19 Aug 2019 10:17

Hound playing 3 at the back does allow you to morph into 3-5-2 or a close variant of it. Even 3-3-4 if we wanted to push Yiadom and Richards (who are both capable of playing as full on wingers) if we needed to

I've always quite liked it as a formation and seems to suit the current line up. Its not great news for those who didn't play yesterday mind you - Rino, Barrett, Baldock, Loader for example aren't a great fit in the starting lineup. You could potentially put Rino in for Pele for a more attacking option though.

Funnily enough I think this formation will suit Loader a hell of a lot more. A striking partnership would really help him along.

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by Hound » 19 Aug 2019 10:18

NewCorkSeth
Hound playing 3 at the back does allow you to morph into 3-5-2 or a close variant of it. Even 3-3-4 if we wanted to push Yiadom and Richards (who are both capable of playing as full on wingers) if we needed to

I've always quite liked it as a formation and seems to suit the current line up. Its not great news for those who didn't play yesterday mind you - Rino, Barrett, Baldock, Loader for example aren't a great fit in the starting lineup. You could potentially put Rino in for Pele for a more attacking option though.

Funnily enough I think this formation will suit Loader a hell of a lot more. A striking partnership would really help him along.


yeah maybe. Just don't see him getting in ahead of Meite or Boye (who I thought looked great) in the front 2

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by NewCorkSeth » 19 Aug 2019 10:21

Hound
NewCorkSeth
Hound playing 3 at the back does allow you to morph into 3-5-2 or a close variant of it. Even 3-3-4 if we wanted to push Yiadom and Richards (who are both capable of playing as full on wingers) if we needed to

I've always quite liked it as a formation and seems to suit the current line up. Its not great news for those who didn't play yesterday mind you - Rino, Barrett, Baldock, Loader for example aren't a great fit in the starting lineup. You could potentially put Rino in for Pele for a more attacking option though.

Funnily enough I think this formation will suit Loader a hell of a lot more. A striking partnership would really help him along.


yeah maybe. Just don't see him getting in ahead of Meite or Boye (who I thought looked great) in the front 2

True. Hes gone well down the pecking order. Pains me to admit it but I think John Smith was correct. Novakovich is not going to play for us.

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by Hound » 19 Aug 2019 10:24

yeah Nova is surely on his way

JS wasn't completely right thankfully as he did play for us vs Sheff Wed

But he is probably well down the list, which is likely Puscas > Joao > Meite > Boye > Loader > Baldock > Nova at the moment

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Re: Will we get found out again?

by Nameless » 19 Aug 2019 10:36

Odd to worry about us not having a Plan B when we've already used at least 3 formations and used different players to do different roles.
We've got the players to be flexible and while undoubtably we'll have a preferred way of playing I can't see us being stuck on one system.
Even down to the small things like how we deal with goalkicks we've used more than one tactic (playing short to a man in the box, playing long)

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