Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

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Gomes in or out?

In
68
55%
Out
56
45%
 
Total votes: 124
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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Zip » 06 Oct 2019 15:01

URZZZZ Gomes' "philisophy" was nonsense last season. It was slow and dull to watch and we weren't winning games. It took a thrashing by Leeds for Gomes to realise it wasn't working and he changed his gameplay from possession based to counter football. Which worked. We beat Preston, we beat Brentford, we drew to Norwich, WBA and Bristol, Meite was scoring for fun

Yet for some reason, he's gone back to his old ways. We're aimlessly passing around the back, there's no penetration going forward and we only get one or two good chances a game. Whilst playing on the counter isn't the most exciting to watch, it helped us get results last season and if Gomes wants to keep his job, he may have to do it again


Yes I can agree with this but we don’t have the pace on the counter now because we loaned out Barrow.

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Snowflake Royal » 06 Oct 2019 15:01

Zip
Hound Gomes is a short term fixer - last season was a relegation battle but the circumstances were different. He was given a team with some high quality loanees and managed to create a great spirit and do enough to see us through (we didn’t exactly smash it though did we? A few good away draws, some let’s be honest scraped home wins)

When it comes to actually creating a team and a long term game plan he’s fallen well short


Oh come on Houndy. We got lucky against Wigan but we played well against the likes of Preston, Forest and Brentford. How on earth was Gomes expected to smash it from such a low base? We were five points away from safety on New Years Day yet ended seven points clear in the end. Let’s not rewrite history here.
He did well last season.

As for creating a team and having a long term game plan we are eleven games in FFS.

Brian managed it.

Hound is just pointing out that the attributes required to do a short term, just about good enough, fix are different to the attributes required to take a team forward medium term.

Gomes is literally proving he can't do it.

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Zip » 06 Oct 2019 15:03

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Zip
Hound Gomes is a short term fixer - last season was a relegation battle but the circumstances were different. He was given a team with some high quality loanees and managed to create a great spirit and do enough to see us through (we didn’t exactly smash it though did we? A few good away draws, some let’s be honest scraped home wins)

When it comes to actually creating a team and a long term game plan he’s fallen well short


Oh come on Houndy. We got lucky against Wigan but we played well against the likes of Preston, Forest and Brentford. How on earth was Gomes expected to smash it from such a low base? We were five points away from safety on New Years Day yet ended seven points clear in the end. Let’s not rewrite history here.
He did well last season.

As for creating a team and having a long term game plan we are eleven games in FFS.

Brian managed it.

Hound is just pointing out that the attributes required to do a short term, just about good enough, fix are different to the attributes required to take a team forward medium term.

Gomes is literally proving he can't do it.


Well I think you need a damn more amount of time than eleven games to be certain of that especially as all the big name signings joined less than two months ago.

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Snowflake Royal » 06 Oct 2019 15:04

URZZZZ
Snowflake Royal If the owners wouldn't want Hughton they're imbeciles.

I hate the cycle of manager sacking. But you can't stick with a failure just to break that cycle. You've got to have someone who can actually do it.

I can see an argument for sticking with Stam at the risk of relegation, he was a totally new manager.

I can see slim reason to stick with Clement. Results had and were slowly picking up.

Sacking McDermottv2 was a disgrace.

I think we pulled the trigger on Adkins too soon.

But all of these people either had a better track record, were more inexperienced, were showing some sign of improvement and / or had good mitigating factors like finances or injuries.

Rodgers had to go, and McDermottv1 proved why.

Clarke had to go, not only were results sliding hard, but he'd shown a lack of commitment to the club.

You can't let trying to avoid a managerial merrigoround be reason to hold onto someone who simply isn't good enough.

You don't sack the manager in February / March having been top six and sliding down to 15th. You do sack the manager who has never had a partucularly good run and is seeing you bottom three in October / November / December. Unless there are strong mitigating factors.


Results were picking up with Rodgers tbf

In that we got a draw with Scunny wasn't it? Nope. Again, manager the problem there and they certainly weren't picking up anywhere near fast enough. The club was totally vindicated on that by McDermott.

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Snowflake Royal » 06 Oct 2019 15:05

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Oh come on Houndy. We got lucky against Wigan but we played well against the likes of Preston, Forest and Brentford. How on earth was Gomes expected to smash it from such a low base? We were five points away from safety on New Years Day yet ended seven points clear in the end. Let’s not rewrite history here.
He did well last season.

As for creating a team and having a long term game plan we are eleven games in FFS.

Brian managed it.

Hound is just pointing out that the attributes required to do a short term, just about good enough, fix are different to the attributes required to take a team forward medium term.

Gomes is literally proving he can't do it.


Well I think you need a damn more amount of time than eleven games to be certain of that especially as all the big name signings joined less than two months ago.

How about 15 games and his entire managerial history?


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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Hound » 06 Oct 2019 15:08

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Hound Gomes is a short term fixer - last season was a relegation battle but the circumstances were different. He was given a team with some high quality loanees and managed to create a great spirit and do enough to see us through (we didn’t exactly smash it though did we? A few good away draws, some let’s be honest scraped home wins)

When it comes to actually creating a team and a long term game plan he’s fallen well short


Oh come on Houndy. We got lucky against Wigan but we played well against the likes of Preston, Forest and Brentford. How on earth was Gomes expected to smash it from such a low base? We were five points away from safety on New Years Day yet ended seven points clear in the end. Let’s not rewrite history here.
He did well last season.

As for creating a team and having a long term game plan we are eleven games in FFS.

Brian managed it.

Hound is just pointing out that the attributes required to do a short term, just about good enough, fix are different to the attributes required to take a team forward medium term.

Gomes is literally proving he can't do it.


Yep. Not denying he did well, and plenty of credit to him. But there were concerns over his tactics last year and it wasn’t that comfortable was it? Martinez certainly kept us in a few and they were some pretty inept performances in there as well (Wigan, Rotherham 2nd half, Ipswich 2nd half) which could have gone either way

What I’m trying to get at is beyond creating a decent short term spirit and some battling performances, we didn’t see many games where you left and thought ‘that’s what I want to see more of next year’

The wins vs Brentford, Wigan, Ipswich, Blackburn actually ended up being a bit grim holding on at the end or late winners when it hadn’t really been coming

Out of all his time here, how many could we say ‘yeah he’s nailed it?’ Cardiff, PNE, WBA? Any more?

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by URZZZZ » 06 Oct 2019 16:03

Snowflake Royal
URZZZZ
Snowflake Royal If the owners wouldn't want Hughton they're imbeciles.

I hate the cycle of manager sacking. But you can't stick with a failure just to break that cycle. You've got to have someone who can actually do it.

I can see an argument for sticking with Stam at the risk of relegation, he was a totally new manager.

I can see slim reason to stick with Clement. Results had and were slowly picking up.

Sacking McDermottv2 was a disgrace.

I think we pulled the trigger on Adkins too soon.

But all of these people either had a better track record, were more inexperienced, were showing some sign of improvement and / or had good mitigating factors like finances or injuries.

Rodgers had to go, and McDermottv1 proved why.

Clarke had to go, not only were results sliding hard, but he'd shown a lack of commitment to the club.

You can't let trying to avoid a managerial merrigoround be reason to hold onto someone who simply isn't good enough.

You don't sack the manager in February / March having been top six and sliding down to 15th. You do sack the manager who has never had a partucularly good run and is seeing you bottom three in October / November / December. Unless there are strong mitigating factors.


Results were picking up with Rodgers tbf

In that we got a draw with Scunny wasn't it? Nope. Again, manager the problem there and they certainly weren't picking up anywhere near fast enough. The club was totally vindicated on that by McDermott.


He was promised a three year project and so he planned accordingly by bringing in the youth. Would Sigurdsson ever have made it as far as he did without Rodgers etc? And we had only just lost 2 in 7 games before he was sacked. Anyway, long time ago, but it’s interesting how Rodgers has pretty much succeeded everywhere apart from here. Maybe possession football isn’t part of the clubs ethos

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Zip » 06 Oct 2019 16:16

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Oh come on Houndy. We got lucky against Wigan but we played well against the likes of Preston, Forest and Brentford. How on earth was Gomes expected to smash it from such a low base? We were five points away from safety on New Years Day yet ended seven points clear in the end. Let’s not rewrite history here.
He did well last season.

As for creating a team and having a long term game plan we are eleven games in FFS.

Brian managed it.

Hound is just pointing out that the attributes required to do a short term, just about good enough, fix are different to the attributes required to take a team forward medium term.

Gomes is literally proving he can't do it.


Yep. Not denying he did well, and plenty of credit to him. But there were concerns over his tactics last year and it wasn’t that comfortable was it? Martinez certainly kept us in a few and they were some pretty inept performances in there as well (Wigan, Rotherham 2nd half, Ipswich 2nd half) which could have gone either way

What I’m trying to get at is beyond creating a decent short term spirit and some battling performances, we didn’t see many games where you left and thought ‘that’s what I want to see more of next year’

The wins vs Brentford, Wigan, Ipswich, Blackburn actually ended up being a bit grim holding on at the end or late winners when it hadn’t really been coming

Out of all his time here, how many could we say ‘yeah he’s nailed it?’ Cardiff, PNE, WBA? Any more?



Norwich was a terrific result but that’s by the by. We were in an absolute mess when he took over. It was all about survival rather than expecting him to nail it.

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Ascotexgunner » 06 Oct 2019 20:55

I don't understand why people would give a manager who clearly is running out of ideas, upsetting players by naming them publicly as the reason we lost a game and then dropping them, as well as constantly tinkering starting line ups, and making weird substitutions during games more time. More time for what? To make it worse? If people can't see that he can't turn this around then their clearly delude. He will not turn this round. All he is now doing is making it worse and destroying the confidence of the players.
I like the guy I really do but he is out of his depth in this league and it really shows. I don't know what happened against Cardiff but we heave seen little, or nothing close to that one off performance.


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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Zip » 06 Oct 2019 21:01

Ascotexgunner I don't understand why people would give a manager who clearly is running out of ideas, upsetting players by naming them publicly as the reason we lost a game and then dropping them, as well as constantly tinkering starting line ups, and making weird substitutions during games more time. More time for what? To make it worse? If people can't see that he can't turn this around then their clearly delude. He will not turn this round. All he is now doing is making it worse and destroying the confidence of the players.
I like the guy I really do but he is out of his depth in this league and it really shows. I don't know what happened against Cardiff but we heave seen little, or nothing close to that one off performance.


It’s amazing how so many of you think you know so much more than those of us who deign to disagree. I wish I was so astute and bow to your vastly superior knowledge.

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Snowflake Royal » 06 Oct 2019 21:21

URZZZZ
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URZZZZ
Results were picking up with Rodgers tbf

In that we got a draw with Scunny wasn't it? Nope. Again, manager the problem there and they certainly weren't picking up anywhere near fast enough. The club was totally vindicated on that by McDermott.


He was promised a three year project and so he planned accordingly by bringing in the youth. Would Sigurdsson ever have made it as far as he did without Rodgers etc? And we had only just lost 2 in 7 games before he was sacked. Anyway, long time ago, but it’s interesting how Rodgers has pretty much succeeded everywhere apart from here. Maybe possession football isn’t part of the clubs ethos

I don't think the project involved relegation before promotion.

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Snowflake Royal » 06 Oct 2019 21:27

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Ascotexgunner I don't understand why people would give a manager who clearly is running out of ideas, upsetting players by naming them publicly as the reason we lost a game and then dropping them, as well as constantly tinkering starting line ups, and making weird substitutions during games more time. More time for what? To make it worse? If people can't see that he can't turn this around then their clearly delude. He will not turn this round. All he is now doing is making it worse and destroying the confidence of the players.
I like the guy I really do but he is out of his depth in this league and it really shows. I don't know what happened against Cardiff but we heave seen little, or nothing close to that one off performance.


It’s amazing how so many of you think you know so much more than those of us who deign to disagree. I wish I was so astute and bow to your vastly superior knowledge.

You've literally said if he doesn't change he has to go, which is what most of the people you're disagreeing with are saying.

On top of that the only reasons you've given for him staying are:
- because you don't want us to endlessly keep sacking managers
- he did a better job last season
- he might sort it out

It's a bit thin isn't it.

Not only that, but given you never rated Clement and were perfectly happy for him to go after 28 games, it's all a bit hypocritical as well.

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Zip » 06 Oct 2019 21:33

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Ascotexgunner I don't understand why people would give a manager who clearly is running out of ideas, upsetting players by naming them publicly as the reason we lost a game and then dropping them, as well as constantly tinkering starting line ups, and making weird substitutions during games more time. More time for what? To make it worse? If people can't see that he can't turn this around then their clearly delude. He will not turn this round. All he is now doing is making it worse and destroying the confidence of the players.
I like the guy I really do but he is out of his depth in this league and it really shows. I don't know what happened against Cardiff but we heave seen little, or nothing close to that one off performance.


It’s amazing how so many of you think you know so much more than those of us who deign to disagree. I wish I was so astute and bow to your vastly superior knowledge.

You've literally said if he doesn't change he has to go, which is what most of the people you're disagreeing with are saying.

On top of that the only reasons you've given for him staying are:
- because you don't want us to endlessly keep sacking managers
- he did a better job last season
- he might sort it out

It's a bit thin isn't it.

Not only that, but given you never rated Clement and were perfectly happy for him to go after 28 games, it's all a bit hypocritical as well.


Er no. Most want him out now which is absolutely not what I am saying. I didn’t rate Clement but wasn’t calling for him to go after 11 games last season. I’ll leave the hypocrisy with you.


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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Ascotexgunner » 06 Oct 2019 21:52

Zip
Ascotexgunner I don't understand why people would give a manager who clearly is running out of ideas, upsetting players by naming them publicly as the reason we lost a game and then dropping them, as well as constantly tinkering starting line ups, and making weird substitutions during games more time. More time for what? To make it worse? If people can't see that he can't turn this around then their clearly delude. He will not turn this round. All he is now doing is making it worse and destroying the confidence of the players.
I like the guy I really do but he is out of his depth in this league and it really shows. I don't know what happened against Cardiff but we heave seen little, or nothing close to that one off performance.


It’s amazing how so many of you think you know so much more than those of us who deign to disagree. I wish I was so astute and bow to your vastly superior knowledge.


So give me an argument why he should stay. The "we keep sacking managers" arguement is not a positive reason. That won't change our position.
I want an argument that will make me think....."yeah, great point he does deserve more time".
Ive not heard one positive reason why things will change....not one arguememt.
I stayed with him til the Fulham game.
The only positive I can think of that would improve us (maybe).....and its a real long shot.....is to get rid of that clown that calls himself a defensive coach. Its a start and I'm certain its not enough, but it might just start moving us in the right direction....maybe.

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Snowflake Royal » 06 Oct 2019 21:54

Zip
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Zip
It’s amazing how so many of you think you know so much more than those of us who deign to disagree. I wish I was so astute and bow to your vastly superior knowledge.

You've literally said if he doesn't change he has to go, which is what most of the people you're disagreeing with are saying.

On top of that the only reasons you've given for him staying are:
- because you don't want us to endlessly keep sacking managers
- he did a better job last season
- he might sort it out

It's a bit thin isn't it.

Not only that, but given you never rated Clement and were perfectly happy for him to go after 28 games, it's all a bit hypocritical as well.


Er no. Most want him out now which is absolutely not what I am saying. I didn’t rate Clement but wasn’t calling for him to go after 11 games last season. I’ll leave the hypocrisy with you.

Well seeing as I'm not calling for Gomes immediate sacking, it's a bit odd you've had such an arse-on at me.

I'm perfectly happy with the difference in my view on Clement vs Gomes. Results were marginally improving under him. Their deteriorating under Gomes. Gomes has already had more games, but achieved the same feat, saving us one season and then continuing our shit trend the next. Clement had an injury crisis, was permitted to spend less money in the summer and had a worse squad as well, so greater mitigating circumstances.

Feel free to offer up something other than last season's performance, not liking sackings (on this occasion) or blind optimism and I'm happy to be swayed towards a more positive view.

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Zip » 06 Oct 2019 21:57

Ascotexgunner
Zip
Ascotexgunner I don't understand why people would give a manager who clearly is running out of ideas, upsetting players by naming them publicly as the reason we lost a game and then dropping them, as well as constantly tinkering starting line ups, and making weird substitutions during games more time. More time for what? To make it worse? If people can't see that he can't turn this around then their clearly delude. He will not turn this round. All he is now doing is making it worse and destroying the confidence of the players.
I like the guy I really do but he is out of his depth in this league and it really shows. I don't know what happened against Cardiff but we heave seen little, or nothing close to that one off performance.


It’s amazing how so many of you think you know so much more than those of us who deign to disagree. I wish I was so astute and bow to your vastly superior knowledge.


So give me an argument why he should stay. The "we keep sacking managers" arguement is not a positive reason. That won't change our position.
I want an argument that will make me think....."yeah, great point he does deserve more time".
Ive not heard one positive reason why things will change....not one arguememt.
I stayed with him til the Fulham game.
The only positive I can think of that would improve us (maybe).....and its a real long shot.....is to get rid of that clown that calls himself a defensive coach. Its a start and I'm certain its not enough, but it might just start moving us in the right direction....maybe.


I’ve already gone through this today, Now you tell me where the guarantees are that things will improve if he is sacked. Adkins, Clarke, McDermott, Stam, Clement, Gomes. Who next for the sack once Gomes goes?

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by Zip » 06 Oct 2019 22:15

Snowflake Royal
Zip
Snowflake Royal You've literally said if he doesn't change he has to go, which is what most of the people you're disagreeing with are saying.

On top of that the only reasons you've given for him staying are:
- because you don't want us to endlessly keep sacking managers
- he did a better job last season
- he might sort it out

It's a bit thin isn't it.

Not only that, but given you never rated Clement and were perfectly happy for him to go after 28 games, it's all a bit hypocritical as well.


Er no. Most want him out now which is absolutely not what I am saying. I didn’t rate Clement but wasn’t calling for him to go after 11 games last season. I’ll leave the hypocrisy with you.

Well seeing as I'm not calling for Gomes immediate sacking, it's a bit odd you've had such an arse-on at me.

I'm perfectly happy with the difference in my view on Clement vs Gomes. Results were marginally improving under him. Their deteriorating under Gomes. Gomes has already had more games, but achieved the same feat, saving us one season and then continuing our shit trend the next. Clement had an injury crisis, was permitted to spend less money in the summer and had a worse squad as well, so greater mitigating circumstances.

Feel free to offer up something other than last season's performance, not liking sackings (on this occasion) or blind optimism and I'm happy to be swayed towards a more positive view.


If you dish it out be prepared to get it back.
Anyway it’s simple. I believe Gomes is capable of changing tactics and make us hard to beat. I think he can turn it around by simple changes. Let’s start man marking, play a hard and high pressing game and stop playing wing backs.

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by krapmle » 06 Oct 2019 22:21

I think he can turn it around by simple changes. Let’s start man marking, play a hard and high pressing game and stop playing wing backs.


but they don't play that way in Portugal so now you want him to do something where he will be even worse than now.

fake snow is a hypocrite

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by BR0B0T » 06 Oct 2019 22:49

Assuming the mods merge this on Monday morning

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Re: Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

by URZZZZ » 06 Oct 2019 23:19

Zip
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Zip
Er no. Most want him out now which is absolutely not what I am saying. I didn’t rate Clement but wasn’t calling for him to go after 11 games last season. I’ll leave the hypocrisy with you.

Well seeing as I'm not calling for Gomes immediate sacking, it's a bit odd you've had such an arse-on at me.

I'm perfectly happy with the difference in my view on Clement vs Gomes. Results were marginally improving under him. Their deteriorating under Gomes. Gomes has already had more games, but achieved the same feat, saving us one season and then continuing our shit trend the next. Clement had an injury crisis, was permitted to spend less money in the summer and had a worse squad as well, so greater mitigating circumstances.

Feel free to offer up something other than last season's performance, not liking sackings (on this occasion) or blind optimism and I'm happy to be swayed towards a more positive view.


If you dish it out be prepared to get it back.
Anyway it’s simple. I believe Gomes is capable of changing tactics and make us hard to beat. I think he can turn it around by simple changes. Let’s start man marking, play a hard and high pressing game and stop playing wing backs.


Pretty much this. I want Gomes out
on the proviso he carries on with his ridiculous tactics. However I am flexible and if he (like he did last season) is willing to change his style, then I am willing to change my mind about him

Considering we don’t have the wingers, I’d like to see a 4-4-2 diamond next game

———————Rafael——————
Andy—Morrison——Miazga—Omar
———————Moore——————-
————Rino————-Ejaria————
———————Swift———————-
————-Boye————Meite———-

Moore did very well at CDM yesterday. Wouldn’t mind Pele there as long as he sticks to normal, simple passes and increases the tempo. Rino and Ejaria can be the ball carriers and Swift the linkup play between the ball carriers and the attack. Boye can be the busybody and Meite as the outlet

Puscas needs to drop to the bench. I really don’t think starting him every game is the way forward because right now his confidence must be so low. Give him a few games on the bench, let him try and discover some form. Again, I’d put Baldock on the bench, certainly ahead of Joao anyway. Probably Blackett there because he can cover FB and CB. I’d be tempted to give Howe a run because Yiadom is on poor form

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