Embargos, HMRC Payment defaults, non payment of wages, the usual under Dai Wrongge

[Stranded]

Have had confirmation that staff have received their wages this morning #readingfc

James Earnshaw
https://twitter.com/james_e1871/status/ ... 4824767503

Small mercies.

Next pay day is Halloween.

[From Despair To Where?]

Where is Dai's sister, Dai Xui Li, in all of this? Does she not own the club alongside himself and doesn't she reside in London?

Pretty sure she handed her stake in the club over to Dai about 5 years ago.

[WestYorksRoyal]

Please excuse my ignorance, but is the points deduction
for going into administration 12 Points?

What "other things" happen in administration?

We can't be forced to sell players before January, right?


My thoughts are, IF we went into administration and Dan
was actually gone, new people and money eventually arrive,
couldn't this squad end up 13+ points clear of the drop
and thus AVOID relegation?

Administrators are appointed to get the club onto firmer financial footing and find a buyer. If our income can't cover our wages, they would make the decision to sell. But they have to make decisions in the club's financial interest, so that can be squared with rejecting derisory offers if it represents a poor deal.

Administration has absolutely naff all to do with the clubs best interests but the best interests of the creditors. The job of the administrator is not to ensure there is a Reading Football Club but to find a way to ensure those who are owed money by it get the most they can.

That could be via a sale of the club or firstly the sale of assets - which would first and foremost be players. If the administrators do not feel they can find a way forward to satisfy creditors, then they will have to look at liquidation.

Admin should see new owners but it doesn't automatically follow what it does guarantee, is people will lose jobs and whatever remaining assets will likely be sold - relegation will almost be a certainty. We would be 13 points adrift with a then demorilised squad who could be sold at any moment.

It may be the least worst option but should not under any circumstances be welcomed.

Not sure I agree. 99% of the time administrators work to ensure the business survives, even if they don't always succeed. Liquidation is where you focus on extracting any remaining value. Derby's administrators rejected bjds for Sibley, which they would not have done if their brief was purely repaying debts. Anyhow, it's an irrelevant argument as Dai is the only individual with the power to put us into administration.

On a better front, Earnshaw has confirmed wage payment.

[Norfolk Royal]

Please excuse my ignorance, but is the points deduction
for going into administration 12 Points?

What "other things" happen in administration?

We can't be forced to sell players before January, right?


My thoughts are, IF we went into administration and Dan
was actually gone, new people and money eventually arrive,
couldn't this squad end up 13+ points clear of the drop
and thus AVOID relegation?

Administrators are appointed to get the club onto firmer financial footing and find a buyer. If our income can't cover our wages, they would make the decision to sell. But they have to make decisions in the club's financial interest, so that can be squared with rejecting derisory offers if it represents a poor deal.

Administration has absolutely naff all to do with the clubs best interests but the best interests of the creditors. The job of the administrator is not to ensure there is a Reading Football Club but to find a way to ensure those who are owed money by it get the most they can.

That could be via a sale of the club or firstly the sale of assets - which would first and foremost be players. If the administrators do not feel they can find a way forward to satisfy creditors, then they will have to look at liquidation.

Admin should see new owners but it doesn't automatically follow what it does guarantee, is people will lose jobs and whatever remaining assets will likely be sold - relegation will almost be a certainty. We would be 13 points adrift with a then demorilised squad who could be sold at any moment.

It may be the least worst option but should not under any circumstances be welcomed.

The rules relating to a football club around going into administration are slightly different though are they not?

The primary role of the administrator is to make the sure the club can survive at least in the short term as a viable business or a going concern.

That means initially that the wages of staff and players are the favoured payments while new investment or new owners are sought.

It's not like liquidation where HMRC would be top of the list, although liquidation remains an option for the administrator if all else fails and there is no hope of further investment or new owners.

[Snowball]

Have had confirmation that staff have received their wages this morning #readingfc

James Earnshaw
https://twitter.com/james_e1871/status/ ... 4824767503

Small mercies.

Next pay day is Halloween.

HORROR!

[Snowflake Royal]

Dai is awful and needs to go.

But just for some perspective (without starting another thread) can someone provide devils advocacy for Dai? If he’s put in £200m isn’t that quite a lot? Do we have a lot to thank him for even if ultimately he just isn’t as stable or reliable as we need?

No.

He's created debt to himself, by making us massively overspend on inadequate players.

~£6/7m on wages to Moore.
~£9m on wages and transfer fees for Aluko.
~£9m on wages and fees for Puscas
~£6m on wages and fees for Joao.

Almost everything he has done has damaged us.

Shit signings. Overinflated wages. Refusing to sell players for good money. Giving super agents free reign. Loaning mediocre players from other clubs instead of developing our own. Constantly hiring shit managers. Constantly sacking managers. Pushing Howe out. Pushing Tevreden out. Hiring Gourlay. Putting us under near continual transfer restrictions. 3 points deductions in about 2 years.
Not paying players and staff. Not paying HMRC.

Even when he was pouring money (debt) into the club he was mismanaging everything.

[YorkshireRoyal99]

The only thing you can say is that he has built the training facilities for ourselves, which is a big bonus. About the only aspect of his spending that hasn't caused us any sort of collateral damage.

[3points]

Some of the highlights:

Pang not been seen at the club in 4 months
Comms non-existant, staff tend to see news in the media first
Dai close to impossible to get hold off, club have had to resort to going via that twat Kia as Dai only seems to pick up from him.
Talks have happened but Dai values the club at 70/80m, without the stadium
Players may be sold at any time at a lower that market price in order to get payment in now and keep the player until Jan
Overnight stays for most away game scrapped
A lot of the players here last year just didn't give a shit and the workplace was toxic

On the plus side, it does praise Selles and the work he is doing to turn the culture around in difficult circumstances.

Well that's that then.

We're done as a club but for the death rattle. Dai's valuation without the stadium is more than double a reasonable valuation with it.

Without a change in law or Dai's attitude, we'll be needing to create a phoenix club within 3 or 4 years.

while we may not agree or like it, it is relatively easy to see how he gets to that sort of figure when you think he's put £50m into Bearwood. Add another £20-30m for the club and players then you're not far off. Don't think any of us would argue about £20-30m as a price expectation for the club. A quick Google suggests Derby has cost the new owners around £80m including the stadium. Doubt they have spent £50m on a training ground.

[WestYorksRoyal]

He's created a club dependent upon him, and now either can't or won't pay his way to cover the costs. He's a total disaster and there is no alternative interpretation of events that can let him off the hook.

[WestYorksRoyal]

Some of the highlights:

Pang not been seen at the club in 4 months
Comms non-existant, staff tend to see news in the media first
Dai close to impossible to get hold off, club have had to resort to going via that twat Kia as Dai only seems to pick up from him.
Talks have happened but Dai values the club at 70/80m, without the stadium
Players may be sold at any time at a lower that market price in order to get payment in now and keep the player until Jan
Overnight stays for most away game scrapped
A lot of the players here last year just didn't give a shit and the workplace was toxic

On the plus side, it does praise Selles and the work he is doing to turn the culture around in difficult circumstances.

Well that's that then.

We're done as a club but for the death rattle. Dai's valuation without the stadium is more than double a reasonable valuation with it.

Without a change in law or Dai's attitude, we'll be needing to create a phoenix club within 3 or 4 years.

while we may not agree or like it, it is relatively easy to see how he gets to that sort of figure when you think he's put £50m into Bearwood. Add another £20-30m for the club and players then you're not far off. Don't think any of us would argue about £20-30m as a price expectation for the club. A quick Google suggests Derby has cost the new owners around £80m including the stadium. Doubt they have spent £50m on a training ground.

The training ground cost is not irrelevant, but it's also not defining. It's worth to a potential buyer is the value it can create, not what Dai paid. While we're in L1, it can impress signings and help us attract a high calibre of player despite the chaos. But it's definitely providing less value than it would in the Championship, and I can't imagine any sort of financial model that would value it at the £50m it cost.

[Loafer]

so many clueless people here dont actually know how football and administration and the HMRC and taxes works

[Snowflake Royal]

Let's not forget that the training ground was at least part funded by selling the old one.

It's not just flat additional value / cost for the club. The club's value when sold previously included the stadium and the old training ground.

10 odd years ago the club was valued at ~£50m when it was in the Championship on the verge of the PL. Since then its become a relegation threatened L1 club, with a stadium that's depreciated in value and been separated from the club, and a training ground that's been replaced.

There is no one. Anywhere. That would pay over £35m for a L1 club.

[3points]

Well that's that then.

We're done as a club but for the death rattle. Dai's valuation without the stadium is more than double a reasonable valuation with it.

Without a change in law or Dai's attitude, we'll be needing to create a phoenix club within 3 or 4 years.

while we may not agree or like it, it is relatively easy to see how he gets to that sort of figure when you think he's put £50m into Bearwood. Add another £20-30m for the club and players then you're not far off. Don't think any of us would argue about £20-30m as a price expectation for the club. A quick Google suggests Derby has cost the new owners around £80m including the stadium. Doubt they have spent £50m on a training ground.

The training ground cost is not irrelevant, but it's also not defining. It's worth to a potential buyer is the value it can create, not what Dai paid. While we're in L1, it can impress signings and help us attract a high calibre of player despite the chaos. But it's definitely providing less value than it would in the Championship, and I can't imagine any sort of financial model that would value it at the £50m it cost.

I know - but I was just pointing out how he may well be thinking to get to £70-80m. It is a tangible asset that could, in theory, be sold for a lot of money. If it was sold for real estate redevelopment I'm sure it'd get more than £50m in alternative use value given its size and location. So it is relevant in that context.

The underlying value of the assets is something an administrator will also need to consider. The administrators' role is to maximise the realisations for the benefits of all creditors (secured, preferential and unsecured). So, you could see a scenario where the administrators sell the club to one party and Bearwood to another. They will consider the best possible deal or combination of deals. Now a buyer of the club may not think it is worth £50m but that's irrelevant.

[3points]

Let's not forget that the training ground was at least part funded by selling the old one.

It's not just flat additional value / cost for the club. The club's value when sold previously included the stadium and the old training ground.

10 odd years ago the club was valued at ~£50m when it was in the Championship on the verge of the PL. Since then its become a relegation threatened L1 club, with a stadium that's depreciated in value and been separated from the club, and a training ground that's been replaced.

There is no one. Anywhere. That would pay over £35m for a L1 club.

Dai acquired Hogwood for about £10m, so net cost is £40m plus the cost of the land that needed to be acquired at Bearwood

[WestYorksRoyal]

so many clueless people here dont actually know how football and administration and the HMRC and taxes works

We're football fans. We shouldn't have to know about this world, a for the few who do as a day job, football should be the escape from it.

[windermereROYAL]

Lewis Coombes reporting that Dai paid this months wages.

[NathStPaul]

Lewis Coombes reporting that Dai paid this months wages.

Do you trust Lewis Coombes?

[Mid Sussex Royal]

Lewis Coombes reporting that Dai paid this months wages.

Not completely sure about that, given the wages usually get paid in the afternoon (assume from Dai's BVI company).

The fact we got confirmation much earlier this month suggests the club may have borrowed the money to cover.

[Pepe the Horseman]

Hopefully this will silence the critics.

[Sutekh]

Just the HMRC to go then, presume that'll be sorted next week and then we can all wait for the same this time next month.