Are Reading fans unfairly critical of black players?

[katweslowski]

I came across this post on Twitter and it got me thinking. I'm not Black, and it would be easy for me to dismiss the idea outright, but I do recognise that society does have underlying biase - some of which aren't always obvious.

I've personally criticised plenty of white players (not just at Reading) for having attitude issues. Things like being cocky, lazy, or not showing enough effort (Mason Mount and Liam Kelly off the top of my head). But I also know that this is sometimes lazy defensive behaviour - things like "I can't be racist as my mate at work is black".

So it's made me wonder: are we more likely to frame things like confidence or frustration as "attitude problems" when it comes to younger black players? The likes of Ejaria, Garcia, Kelvin, Dorsett, Camara,and even Olise was described as some of "lacking effort".

Some people in the comments agree with the original post, though the reactions are quite mixed. Curious to hear what others here think.

[Sutekh]

I came across this post on Twitter and it got me thinking. I'm not Black, and it would be easy for me to dismiss the idea outright, but I do recognise that society does have underlying biase - some of which aren't always obvious.

I've personally criticised plenty of white players (not just at Reading) for having attitude issues. Things like being cocky, lazy, or not showing enough effort (Mason Mount and Liam Kelly off the top of my head). But I also know that this is sometimes lazy defensive behaviour - things like "I can't be racist as my mate at work is black".

So it's made me wonder: are we more likely to frame things like confidence or frustration as "attitude problems" when it comes to younger black players? The likes of Ejaria, Garcia, Kelvin, Dorsett, Camara,and even Olise was described as some of "lacking effort".

Some people in the comments agree with the original post, though the reactions are quite mixed. Curious to hear what others here think.

I’m not, if someone’s got an attitude problem it should be called out irrespective of their race, gender or age. Just say that IN YOUR OPINION that you think so and so might have a problem because…

Personally think Garcia’s age is his problem as he is still learning, probably why he looks better as a winger as he doesn’t need to worry so much about the defensive side of the game. Down to the coaches to keep hammering home the basics on him as much as anything.

[Brogue]

Garcia's perceived (by some) attitude problem stems from his interview after the game with Dim Tellor

when asked if he’s confident he’ll be back next season he replied:

“We’ll have to see init, there’s a lot of stuff on the road init, a lot of people interested.”

I can see why some fans haven't taken too kindly to that response, and why some people might suggest there is an attitude problem. But to suggest we as a fan base are inherently racist because some have criticized his response is madness, imo.

[katweslowski]

Garcia's perceived (by some) attitude problem stems from his interview after the game with Dim Tellor

when asked if he’s confident he’ll be back next season he replied:

“We’ll have to see init, there’s a lot of stuff on the road init, a lot of people interested.”

Yea I saw that at the weekend and genuinely thought someone was just having a laugh. I have to say, I've always felt his attitude is off and whether that's unfair or not is up for debate, but it's nothing to do with skin colour. The only unfair thing about it potentially that I overlook the good things he contributes and don't consider his age. When I was 17, I was even more of a bellend than I am now.

[Linden Jones' Tash]

I have learned to recognise and generally agree that there's a lot of unconscious bias floating around - rhe way in which different people are described, based on overt characteristics.

The black player trope is one, as is the way assertive women are often described in a business context - with negative connotations vs. male counterparts.

I don't think it's just a Reading thing and hopefully if it's recognised and understood, it can be addressed.

[blythspartan]

I did hear Garcia’s interview and I thought he sounded fine. He’s a young lad and probably hasn’t had much or any media training.

When I go to games I see the players wearing the shirt and race doesn’t come into the equation for me. I just want them to try their best for the team. I try not to be too critical of our players, but I have moaned about Ejaria and Swift in the past.

I certainly hope that I don’t have an unconscious bias, but there’s always a chance that I might moan about a player of colour in the future. However, it’ll be nothing whatsoever to do with their race.

[katweslowski]

I did hear Garcia’s interview and I thought he sounded fine. He’s a young lad and probably hasn’t had much or any media training.

Also someone's spoken words when written in text sound way different to when they say it.

For example, if I wrote down something I said it would be: "Hi, umm, yea ok, what was that thing you wanted?" and it sounds terrible, so when you see Garcia's comments written like that, and also that one single line it probably looks way different to how it sounded in reality

[Snowflake Royal]

I have learned to recognise and generally agree that there's a lot of unconscious bias floating around - rhe way in which different people are described, based on overt characteristics.

The black player trope is one, as is the way assertive women are often described in a business context - with negative connotations vs. male counterparts.

I don't think it's just a Reading thing and hopefully if it's recognised and understood, it can be addressed.

Yeah. It's something I try to question and be aware of.

I don’t think it has much, if any, affect on my judgement. But it would be unconscious so hard to know.

When I consider the black player is lazy trope, it's one I'm pretty confident I don’t fall into. Leigertwood and Joao got it a lot, Kelvin E would be a candidate now, and it was never something I really felt for them. They have a more languid style, but I don’t consider that lazy. Not everyone is Charlie Savage teararsing across the pitch at 30 miles an hour for 95 minutes. These players tend to be taller, heavier, stronger - quite often attacking where chasing hard and fast all game isn’t a great use of energy. Joao got accused of being too lazy to compete for headers and jump, but that was a conscious choice on how to compete, he tried roll his man or bring the ball down on his chest, rather than get up and flick a header to no one. It wasn’t always the right choice, but it wasn’t laziness.

Then I think of the black players I've disliked the play of the most, and I can generally think of white players I've had just as much issue with for the same or similar reasons.

Ejaria and Swift dwelling on the ball, slowing the game down and trying to beat too many players.

Jones and Houghton dithering on the ball with too many touches and playing boring overly safe passes sideways and backwards.

Brooker pulling out of everything. Gunter to a lesser extent, and only ever play the low risk ball and backing off constantly - I can't think of a black comparison I've criticised for either.

I don’t think Garcia is lazy, I do think he plays cocksure and with poor concentration. But that's because he's a teenager who has progressed too quickly for his maturity level. And that's based on the above normal number of basic unforced errors he makes and how often he seems to be caught napping, out of position or just beaten far too easily. Defence takes composure and focus, Bindon has it, he doesn’t (yet). I'm not sure.he wants to be a defender. But I don’t think he's got the tricks or goal threat to be an attacker. For me he's a typical modern fullback - a failed winger

[Royal Ginger]

It goes the other way too, when praised black players in many sports are more likely to be described as athletic or strong and less likely to be described as *insert sport* intelligent than their white counterparts.

The bias is there even when people aren’t trying to be horrible.

[Sutekh]

If a players pants I’ll moan about him irrespective of his colour. If a player is brilliant I’ll praise him irrespective of his colour. Wish people would stop banging on about people’s colour it really is unimportant, we’re all one race - the human race!

When I was a kid and started watching Reading I idolised Gilksey and tried to play like him on the odd occasion some thought I was ok enough to play in a team. I’ve then gone through a list of favourite players of all colours down the years so don’t need the idiots out there that say because someone is a different colour to you that you can’t look up to them as a role model

At the end of the day it’s not what colour someone is it’s the sort of person they are and there’s saints and complete arseholes on both sides of any perceived divide.

[andrew1957]

I can only speak for myself but I can honestly say skin colour simply doesn't come into my head when I think of which players are doing a good job or not. For example we all seem to love Mbengue - who is fantastic. He tries hard, is athletic and gives his all. I have never given his skin colour a thought and nor should any of us. Surely this should not even be a topic these days. Frankly I don't care if players are white, black, gay or straight. It is the effort they put in and their skill that matters.

[Snowflake Royal]

If a players pants I’ll moan about him irrespective of his colour. If a player is brilliant I’ll praise him irrespective of his colour. Wish people would stop banging on about people’s colour it really is unimportant, we’re all one race - the human race!

When I was a kid and started watching Reading I idolised Gilksey and tried to play like him on the odd occasion some thought I was ok enough to play in a team. I’ve then gone through a list of favourite players of all colours down the years so don’t need the idiots out there that say because someone is a different colour to you that you can’t look up to them as a role model

At the end of the day it’s not what colour someone is it’s the sort of person they are and there’s saints and complete arseholes on both sides of any perceived divide.

You and andrew both, might want to do some research into the concept of unconscious bias.

[Rea Ding]

Lets keep race baiting clickbait out of this chat. Reading fans are some of the most polite and unthreatening support around. I can honestly say ive never heard any racism watching us for decades now. Sure, everyone has unconscious bias that goes many different ways but racism isnt an issue with our club (The twitter post was implying).

[BRO_BOT]

If a players pants I’ll moan about him irrespective of his colour. If a player is brilliant I’ll praise him irrespective of his colour. Wish people would stop banging on about people’s colour it really is unimportant, we’re all one race - the human race!

When I was a kid and started watching Reading I idolised Gilksey and tried to play like him on the odd occasion some thought I was ok enough to play in a team. I’ve then gone through a list of favourite players of all colours down the years so don’t need the idiots out there that say because someone is a different colour to you that you can’t look up to them as a role model

At the end of the day it’s not what colour someone is it’s the sort of person they are and there’s saints and complete arseholes on both sides of any perceived divide.

You and andrew both, might want to do some research into the concept of unconscious bias.

How do you actually counter unconscious bias?

(I don't know too much about it tbh and a quick Google hasn't really helped)

[Snowflake Royal]

If a players pants I’ll moan about him irrespective of his colour. If a player is brilliant I’ll praise him irrespective of his colour. Wish people would stop banging on about people’s colour it really is unimportant, we’re all one race - the human race!

When I was a kid and started watching Reading I idolised Gilksey and tried to play like him on the odd occasion some thought I was ok enough to play in a team. I’ve then gone through a list of favourite players of all colours down the years so don’t need the idiots out there that say because someone is a different colour to you that you can’t look up to them as a role model

At the end of the day it’s not what colour someone is it’s the sort of person they are and there’s saints and complete arseholes on both sides of any perceived divide.

You and andrew both, might want to do some research into the concept of unconscious bias.

How do you actually counter unconscious bias?

(I don't know too much about it tbh and a quick Google hasn't really helped)

With a lot of difficulty tbh, I think there's some schools of thought that it's all but impossible.

But first thing is to not be in denial about the possibility. There's some interesting tests that ae easily accessible called Harvard Implicit Awareness Tests, I think. They need to be taken with a large pinch of salt and are of limited diagnostic value, but great for awareness and thought provoking.

Then you've got to apply as much critical thinking as you can, and remove as many factors as you can. If you take exam marking for example, remove name, gender/sex etc to remove racial, gender, sexual biases, socio-cultural too. Making it typed can removed elements of that too from handwriting.

Challenging yourself by changing the context. Would I make the same decision if x factor was opposite, age, race, gender, etc. Sanity check the decision with someone else. Challenging yourself on how much of the decision is purely factual.

[BRO_BOT]

You and andrew both, might want to do some research into the concept of unconscious bias.

How do you actually counter unconscious bias?

(I don't know too much about it tbh and a quick Google hasn't really helped)

With a lot of difficulty tbh, I think there's some schools of thought that it's all but impossible.

But first thing is to not be in denial about the possibility. There's some interesting tests that ae easily accessible called Harvard Implicit Awareness Tests, I think. They need to be taken with a large pinch of salt and are of limited diagnostic value, but great for awareness and thought provoking.

Then you've got to apply as much critical thinking as you can, and remove as many factors as you can. If you take exam marking for example, remove name, gender/sex etc to remove racial, gender, sexual biases, socio-cultural too. Making it typed can removed elements of that too from handwriting.

Challenging yourself by changing the context. Would I make the same decision if x factor was opposite, age, race, gender, etc. Sanity check the decision with someone else. Challenging yourself on how much of the decision is purely factual.

Say I had to choose between two potential hires, identical apart from race (one white, one black). Part of the job involves jumping but we have no info on this. Who do I choose?

[Snowflake Royal]

How do you actually counter unconscious bias?

(I don't know too much about it tbh and a quick Google hasn't really helped)

With a lot of difficulty tbh, I think there's some schools of thought that it's all but impossible.

But first thing is to not be in denial about the possibility. There's some interesting tests that ae easily accessible called Harvard Implicit Awareness Tests, I think. They need to be taken with a large pinch of salt and are of limited diagnostic value, but great for awareness and thought provoking.

Then you've got to apply as much critical thinking as you can, and remove as many factors as you can. If you take exam marking for example, remove name, gender/sex etc to remove racial, gender, sexual biases, socio-cultural too. Making it typed can removed elements of that too from handwriting.

Challenging yourself by changing the context. Would I make the same decision if x factor was opposite, age, race, gender, etc. Sanity check the decision with someone else. Challenging yourself on how much of the decision is purely factual.

Say I had to choose between two potential hires, identical apart from race (one white, one black). Part of the job involves jumping but we have no info on this. Who do I choose?

No one is going to make you responsible for hiring.

[Sutekh]

How do you actually counter unconscious bias?

(I don't know too much about it tbh and a quick Google hasn't really helped)

With a lot of difficulty tbh, I think there's some schools of thought that it's all but impossible.

But first thing is to not be in denial about the possibility. There's some interesting tests that ae easily accessible called Harvard Implicit Awareness Tests, I think. They need to be taken with a large pinch of salt and are of limited diagnostic value, but great for awareness and thought provoking.

Then you've got to apply as much critical thinking as you can, and remove as many factors as you can. If you take exam marking for example, remove name, gender/sex etc to remove racial, gender, sexual biases, socio-cultural too. Making it typed can removed elements of that too from handwriting.

Challenging yourself by changing the context. Would I make the same decision if x factor was opposite, age, race, gender, etc. Sanity check the decision with someone else. Challenging yourself on how much of the decision is purely factual.

Say I had to choose between two potential hires, identical apart from race (one white, one black). Part of the job involves jumping but we have no info on this. Who do I choose?

Why didn’t you ask them to jump as part the interview ? Then you could give it to whoever jumped the highest or furthest or the most in 5 minutes or whatever the job benefits from most.

[BRO_BOT]

With a lot of difficulty tbh, I think there's some schools of thought that it's all but impossible.

But first thing is to not be in denial about the possibility. There's some interesting tests that ae easily accessible called Harvard Implicit Awareness Tests, I think. They need to be taken with a large pinch of salt and are of limited diagnostic value, but great for awareness and thought provoking.

Then you've got to apply as much critical thinking as you can, and remove as many factors as you can. If you take exam marking for example, remove name, gender/sex etc to remove racial, gender, sexual biases, socio-cultural too. Making it typed can removed elements of that too from handwriting.

Challenging yourself by changing the context. Would I make the same decision if x factor was opposite, age, race, gender, etc. Sanity check the decision with someone else. Challenging yourself on how much of the decision is purely factual.

Say I had to choose between two potential hires, identical apart from race (one white, one black). Part of the job involves jumping but we have no info on this. Who do I choose?

Why didn’t you ask them to jump as part the interview ? Then you could give it to whoever jumped the highest or furthest or the most in 5 minutes or whatever the job benefits from most.

That's the spirit, Sutekh