Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

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Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Mid Sussex Royal » 29 Aug 2019 18:33

Apologies if this is covered elsewhere, but read an article on BBC re Bolton/Bury which suggests we are amongst a number of Championship clubs who have sold club assets to meet FFP regs, not seen this reported locally....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49495387

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by From Despair To Where? » 29 Aug 2019 18:43

Dai bought the stadium last year. It was widely reported.

I would say the big difference is that our owners are investing large sums of their own money into the infrastructure of the club rather than mortgaging the ground to do it. Before FFP, they would just have invested money into the club directly rather than having to manipulate the books. It relies entirely on the goodwill of the owners but hasn't football always been like that?

I think this selling the ground issue has been created entirely by FFP and that FFP is not fit for purpose in its current format.
Last edited by From Despair To Where? on 29 Aug 2019 18:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Nameless » 29 Aug 2019 18:45

Been discussed here a fair bit. It’s an accounting thing, same people still own the club and the stadium but when it was done it gave the club a cash injection. Likewise the training ground. It’s daft in many ways because the owners would by all accounts have just invested the money but that isn’t acceptable under FFP so you end up transferring the asset into different ownership.
Would be worrying if it had been sold to a third party .

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by tidus_mi2 » 29 Aug 2019 18:50

From Despair To Where? Dai bought the stadium last year. It was widely reported.

I would say the big difference is that our owners are investing large sums of their own money into the infrastructure of the club rather than mortgaging the ground to do it. Before FFP, they would just have invested money into the club directly rather than having to manipulate the books. It relies entirely on the goodwill of the owners but hasn't football always been like that?

I think this selling the ground issue has been created entirely by FFP and that FFP is not fit for purpose in its current format.

I do feel FFP needs to be re-evaluated to allow wealthy owners to pump money into the club if they so choose to and the only purpose of FFP should be to prevent a similar situation to Portsmouth where there was no protection against the owner just pulling the plug.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by From Despair To Where? » 29 Aug 2019 18:56

The thing with FFP is that it restricts responsible ownership but in the examples of QPR and Birmingham, does nothing to stop irresponsible ownership. It's pointless without effective fit and proper ownership regulation.


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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Mid Sussex Royal » 29 Aug 2019 18:57

From Despair To Where? Dai bought the stadium last year. It was widely reported.

I would say the big difference is that our owners are investing large sums of their own money into the infrastructure of the club rather than mortgaging the ground to do it. Before FFP, they would just have invested money into the club directly rather than having to manipulate the books. It relies entirely on the goodwill of the owners but hasn't football always been like that?

I think this selling the ground issue has been created entirely by FFP and that FFP is not fit for purpose in its current format.


Thanks, but if this happened last year & we still made the massive losses, that's very worrying indeed....

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by From Despair To Where? » 29 Aug 2019 19:06

I think there's another issue with FFP. Take Forest Green Rovers for example. Ambitious owner but the ceiling of their ambitions may be League 1 because FFP will be applicable in the Championship and without an incremental increase in fan base and revenues outside the owner, they won't be able to attract the sort of investment to compete long term in the Championship.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Hound » 29 Aug 2019 19:36

Not heard a lot with REP, but the fact that the previous Thai owners own some of the surrounding land worries me more than the current owners owning the stadium tbh

Not that there is that much they can do with it I suppose

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by The Enfield Royal71 » 29 Aug 2019 19:40

From Despair To Where? I think there's another issue with FFP. Take Forest Green Rovers for example. Ambitious owner but the ceiling of their ambitions may be League 1 because FFP will be applicable in the Championship and without an incremental increase in fan base and revenues outside the owner, they won't be able to attract the sort of investment to compete long term in the Championship.


I think you might be wrong there. In a few years we will be in the Champ.


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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Barney » 29 Aug 2019 20:19

The Enfield Royal71
From Despair To Where? I think there's another issue with FFP. Take Forest Green Rovers for example. Ambitious owner but the ceiling of their ambitions may be League 1 because FFP will be applicable in the Championship and without an incremental increase in fan base and revenues outside the owner, they won't be able to attract the sort of investment to compete long term in the Championship.


I think you might be wrong there. In a few years we will be in the Champ.


No YOU won't, I walked into YOUR ground a few weeks ago. Had a look around before YOUR friendly with Bristol City. Very very tiny. No room for expansion.
Can't accomodate large away support. Very little 'water holes' nearby. All in all, limited revenue opportunities.

Small, neat, compact. But would be destroyed in the Championship.

I agree 100% with From Despair to Where.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Zip » 29 Aug 2019 20:29

From Despair To Where? Dai bought the stadium last year. It was widely reported.

I would say the big difference is that our owners are investing large sums of their own money into the infrastructure of the club rather than mortgaging the ground to do it. Before FFP, they would just have invested money into the club directly rather than having to manipulate the books. It relies entirely on the goodwill of the owners but hasn't football always been like that?

I think this selling the ground issue has been created entirely by FFP and that FFP is not fit for purpose in its current format.


In regard the money pumped into Bearwood by our owners. Is this lumped onto our existing debt? Or have they paid for it and just taken ownership of it as an asset in their name?

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by The Enfield Royal71 » 29 Aug 2019 20:36

Barney
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From Despair To Where? I think there's another issue with FFP. Take Forest Green Rovers for example. Ambitious owner but the ceiling of their ambitions may be League 1 because FFP will be applicable in the Championship and without an incremental increase in fan base and revenues outside the owner, they won't be able to attract the sort of investment to compete long term in the Championship.


I think you might be wrong there. In a few years we will be in the Champ.


No YOU won't, I walked into YOUR ground a few weeks ago. Had a look around before YOUR friendly with Bristol City. Very very tiny. No room for expansion.
Can't accomodate large away support. Very little 'water holes' nearby. All in all, limited revenue opportunities.

Small, neat, compact. But would be destroyed in the Championship.

I agree 100% with From Despair to Where.


Why the YOU?

What do you know about FGR? Because of a ground it will destroy us? The chairman is ballsy and rich and ambitious and will invest heavily and build a new ground.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by From Despair To Where? » 29 Aug 2019 20:40

it wasn't meant s a dig at Forest Green Rovers, just an example of a small club with an ambitious owner but he would not be able to bankroll the club to the same extent in the Championship because of FFP. It would require a massive increase in revenue. In a 5000 seat stadium, gate receipts would yeald less than £3m a season, matchday revenue less than £2m, sponsorship and TV revenue maybe £1.5m.

A squad of 20 players on an average of £6,000p/w would swallow that up.


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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by From Despair To Where? » 29 Aug 2019 20:45

The Enfield Royal71
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I think you might be wrong there. In a few years we will be in the Champ.


No YOU won't, I walked into YOUR ground a few weeks ago. Had a look around before YOUR friendly with Bristol City. Very very tiny. No room for expansion.
Can't accomodate large away support. Very little 'water holes' nearby. All in all, limited revenue opportunities.

Small, neat, compact. But would be destroyed in the Championship.

I agree 100% with From Despair to Where.


Why the YOU?

What do you know about FGR? Because of a ground it will destroy us? The chairman is ballsy and rich and ambitious and will invest heavily and build a new ground.


But you need to increase the fanbase to justify building a 15,000 seat stadium otherwise it's a white elephant with significantly increased running costs. See Darlington as an example of how it can go dreadfully wrong.

And if you're in the Championship. he can't invest heavily without the increase in revenue because of FFP. That's the whole point. FFP does not apply to league 1 and League 2 so he can throw as much money as needed at the club but there's more accountability in the Championship.

Look at Burton as an example. Survival in the Championship in the short term is achievable, but establishing yourself needs big money, the sort of sums that FFP prevents you from spending. Even much bigger clubs like Rotherham with bigger support and bigger catchment areas in traditional footballing heartlands struggle to do it.
Last edited by From Despair To Where? on 29 Aug 2019 20:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Barney » 29 Aug 2019 20:47

The Enfield Royal71
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The Enfield Royal71
I think you might be wrong there. In a few years we will be in the Champ.


No YOU won't, I walked into YOUR ground a few weeks ago. Had a look around before YOUR friendly with Bristol City. Very very tiny. No room for expansion.
Can't accomodate large away support. Very little 'water holes' nearby. All in all, limited revenue opportunities.

Small, neat, compact. But would be destroyed in the Championship.

I agree 100% with From Despair to Where.


Why the YOU?

What do you know about FGR? Because of a ground it will destroy us? The chairman is ballsy and rich and ambitious and will invest heavily and build a new ground.


I use YOU....as you stated "WE will be in the champ". So if you refer to FGR as 'we', then expect me to use 'you' when replying. Pretty obvious really.

As for your new ground, I quote, "On 3 November 2016, the club announced the winning design for a proposed 5,000 seat new stadium to be built within the Eco Park complex beside Junction 13 of the M5 in Gloucestershire, 1.5 miles west of the town of Stonehouse (and 8.5 miles northwest of their spiritual home of Nailsworth). The design is for a stadium made almost entirely of wood, including the roof cantilevers."

And knowing a bit about second tier football, FGR MAY mind that a capacity of 5,000 will not reep the required revenues needed to stay in the second tier of football.

By the way, FGR will need to make the third tier intially. Good luck to you for your season.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by The Royal Forester » 29 Aug 2019 20:57

Barney
The Enfield Royal71
From Despair To Where? I think there's another issue with FFP. Take Forest Green Rovers for example. Ambitious owner but the ceiling of their ambitions may be League 1 because FFP will be applicable in the Championship and without an incremental increase in fan base and revenues outside the owner, they won't be able to attract the sort of investment to compete long term in the Championship.


I think you might be wrong there. In a few years we will be in the Champ.


No YOU won't, I walked into YOUR ground a few weeks ago. Had a look around before YOUR friendly with Bristol City. Very very tiny. No room for expansion.
Can't accomodate large away support. Very little 'water holes' nearby. All in all, limited revenue opportunities.

Small, neat, compact. But would be destroyed in the Championship.

I agree 100% with From Despair to Where.

They could be in a new ground before they get to the Championship. The last I heard is the owner wants to build a new ground near Junction 13 of the M5, built of wood to keep their "green" image. The council are in ongoing talks with them before granting permission. Their present ground is only a few years old, I believe, also built from the present owners pocket.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by From Despair To Where? » 29 Aug 2019 21:05

But the issue is 5,000 capacity equals limited revenue potential. 15,000 capacity, or example, equals two thirds empty ground in league 1 or 2 and increased overheads.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by The Royal Forester » 29 Aug 2019 21:05

Barney
The Enfield Royal71
Barney
No YOU won't, I walked into YOUR ground a few weeks ago. Had a look around before YOUR friendly with Bristol City. Very very tiny. No room for expansion.
Can't accomodate large away support. Very little 'water holes' nearby. All in all, limited revenue opportunities.

Small, neat, compact. But would be destroyed in the Championship.

I agree 100% with From Despair to Where.


Why the YOU?

What do you know about FGR? Because of a ground it will destroy us? The chairman is ballsy and rich and ambitious and will invest heavily and build a new ground.


I use YOU....as you stated "WE will be in the champ". So if you refer to FGR as 'we', then expect me to use 'you' when replying. Pretty obvious really.

As for your new ground, I quote, "On 3 November 2016, the club announced the winning design for a proposed 5,000 seat new stadium to be built within the Eco Park complex beside Junction 13 of the M5 in Gloucestershire, 1.5 miles west of the town of Stonehouse (and 8.5 miles northwest of their spiritual home of Nailsworth). The design is for a stadium made almost entirely of wood, including the roof cantilevers."

And knowing a bit about second tier football, FGR MAY mind that a capacity of 5,000 will not reep the required revenues needed to stay in the second tier of football.

By the way, FGR will need to make the third tier intially. Good luck to you for your season.

I think the ground will be built, so it can be added to which will increase the capacity, just like the Mad Stad can.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by From Despair To Where? » 29 Aug 2019 21:21

But stadium expansion takes time, money and usually a hit in capacity. Say FGR are getting 4,000 in league 1, not an unreasonable figure considering their current attendances, there's no need to expand but they get promoted to the Championship and they want to expand their main stand by 2,000 seats (That's would doubling it in size for a 5,000 seat stadium). It takes 6-8 months, costs £2m and their capacity for the duration is reduced from 5,140 to 4,000.

It's more expenditure and less revenue and it's all counting towards FFP. And that's before you even consider things like investment in the squad, bonuses, wages, increased matchday costs etc etc etc.

All I'm saying is FFP makes the fairytale rise through the leagues more and more difficult.
Last edited by From Despair To Where? on 29 Aug 2019 21:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Have we sold the Mad Stad to the owners/someone else?

by Platypuss » 29 Aug 2019 21:21

From Despair To Where? It's more expenditure and less revenue and it's all counting towards FFP.


Not sure about that.

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