England - the future....

[Sanguine]

It's pointless playing the ball over the top for him or giving him anything to run onto as he is going to get caught every time, so that restricts what we can do.

There's lots of pace everywhere else in the attack but they can't play the ball in as quickly as they might otherwise do because Kane probably won't be there at the split second of maximum opportunity.

I think you're ignoring evidence you can see with your own eyes to fit a narrative on Kane you've been building for some time.

1 - We don't play balls over the top. We didn't under Southgate, that isn't how Tuchel is setting us up either.
2 - Kane has literally 24 hours ago scored a goal by movement and by beating a defender to the ball to win a header.

[Royal Rother]

Yes, and he will continue to score goals if we continue to play him.

But we won’t win anything.

I’m just asking the question as to whether there might be a way of shuffling the pack that would get more out of the collective resources at Tuchel’s disposal so we COULD potentially take that next step and win a tournament.

But I do understand that getting CLOSE to winning things was always good enough for you under Southgate.

[Carnabyswhiskers]

Why James and Lewis-Skelly and not Livramento? Why Rashford and not Gordon? Why so late to introduce Rogers? The game needed players prepared to run at defenders and play 1-2s past them, or to be prepared to overlap, at speed, either to get on the end of a through-ball or to draw defenders out of position. We have the talent. Why is it so hard to exploit it? Still think Tuchel is the man for the overall job (ie make the necessary decisions under pressure in the final stages of competitions to get us over the line), but some of his selections and his bewildering indulgence of certain individuals - J. Henderson, really? - are making me doubt.

Anyone would think Thomas Tuchel is lurking on here.

[Sanguine]

Yes, and he will continue to score goals if we continue to play him.

But we won’t win anything.

I’m just asking the question as to whether there might be a way of shuffling the pack that would get more out of the collective resources at Tuchel’s disposal so we COULD potentially take that next step and win a tournament.

But I do understand that getting CLOSE to winning things was always good enough for you under Southgate.

I think the notion that we'll get close to winning things but won't win anything just because we're playing someone with 74 goals in 109 games and who will, in your words, 'continue to score goals' - is a little silly, RR.

BBC highlights the importance of Kane's game to the system Tuchel favours, he needs a 9 that comes deep.

[Sutekh]

Yes, and he will continue to score goals if we continue to play him.

But we won’t win anything.

I’m just asking the question as to whether there might be a way of shuffling the pack that would get more out of the collective resources at Tuchel’s disposal so we COULD potentially take that next step and win a tournament.

But I do understand that getting CLOSE to winning things was always good enough for you under Southgate.

I think the notion that we'll get close to winning things but won't win anything just because we're playing someone with 74 goals in 109 games and who will, in your words, 'continue to score goals' - is a little silly, RR.

BBC highlights the importance of Kane's game to the system Tuchel favours, he needs a 9 that comes deep.

Or an 8 that goes forward

[Royal Rother]

Yes, and he will continue to score goals if we continue to play him.

But we won’t win anything.

I’m just asking the question as to whether there might be a way of shuffling the pack that would get more out of the collective resources at Tuchel’s disposal so we COULD potentially take that next step and win a tournament.

But I do understand that getting CLOSE to winning things was always good enough for you under Southgate.

I think the notion that we'll get close to winning things but won't win anything just because we're playing someone with 74 goals in 109 games and who will, in your words, 'continue to score goals' - is a little silly, RR.

Yeah, I know it's 59 years ago now, but I suppose it's the old Jimmy Greaves type of question really.

[bcubed]

Yes, and he will continue to score goals if we continue to play him.

But we won’t win anything.

I’m just asking the question as to whether there might be a way of shuffling the pack that would get more out of the collective resources at Tuchel’s disposal so we COULD potentially take that next step and win a tournament.

But I do understand that getting CLOSE to winning things was always good enough for you under Southgate.

I don't have any stats to back it up but its always been my feeling that Kane goes missing in the really crunch games. The semi finals and final where we need everyone to perform at their best.

[ayjaydee]

Yes, and he will continue to score goals if we continue to play him.

But we won’t win anything.

I’m just asking the question as to whether there might be a way of shuffling the pack that would get more out of the collective resources at Tuchel’s disposal so we COULD potentially take that next step and win a tournament.

But I do understand that getting CLOSE to winning things was always good enough for you under Southgate.

I don't have any stats to back it up but its always been my feeling that Kane goes missing in the really crunch games. The semi finals and final where we need everyone to perform at their best.

Not so sure that he goes missing, more that he tries to do too much outside the role for which he is picked. No Harry you are not helping the team by picking the ball up from Pickford. He seems to bear the collective weight of frustration on his shoulders.

[Snowflake Royal]

Yes, and he will continue to score goals if we continue to play him.

But we won’t win anything.

I’m just asking the question as to whether there might be a way of shuffling the pack that would get more out of the collective resources at Tuchel’s disposal so we COULD potentially take that next step and win a tournament.

But I do understand that getting CLOSE to winning things was always good enough for you under Southgate.

close is a damn sight better than almost anyone else has achieved.

We'll see if anyone else can replicate Southgate's success. I don't see it from Tuchel, with Kane or finding an alternative.

[South Coast Royal]

Yes, and he will continue to score goals if we continue to play him.

But we won’t win anything.

I’m just asking the question as to whether there might be a way of shuffling the pack that would get more out of the collective resources at Tuchel’s disposal so we COULD potentially take that next step and win a tournament.

But I do understand that getting CLOSE to winning things was always good enough for you under Southgate.

I think the notion that we'll get close to winning things but won't win anything just because we're playing someone with 74 goals in 109 games and who will, in your words, 'continue to score goals' - is a little silly, RR.

Yeah, I know it's 59 years ago now, but I suppose it's the old Jimmy Greaves type of question really.

You might have to explain that to many of your readers RR.
Do we have a Geoff Hurst or Roger Hunt waiting in the wings?

[BRO_BOT]

Yes, and he will continue to score goals if we continue to play him.

But we won’t win anything.

I’m just asking the question as to whether there might be a way of shuffling the pack that would get more out of the collective resources at Tuchel’s disposal so we COULD potentially take that next step and win a tournament.

But I do understand that getting CLOSE to winning things was always good enough for you under Southgate.

We'll see if anyone else can replicate Southgate's success.

Depends on how lucky they get with the draw. If they face no one strong, then there's a chance Southgate's success can be replic8d

[stealthpapes]

Yes, and he will continue to score goals if we continue to play him.

But we won’t win anything.

I’m just asking the question as to whether there might be a way of shuffling the pack that would get more out of the collective resources at Tuchel’s disposal so we COULD potentially take that next step and win a tournament.

But I do understand that getting CLOSE to winning things was always good enough for you under Southgate.

I don't have any stats to back it up but its always been my feeling that Kane goes missing in the really crunch games. The semi finals and final where we need everyone to perform at their best.

The problem here is that (a) semifinals and finals are rare* and (b) by definition you're playing better teams.

I guess you could compare his performances in friendly/Nations league games against teams of comparable stature? What's that - record vs Croatia, Italy, Spain, France etc in other games?

*going back in time and including discrete QFs

Robson - 2QF, 1SF in 3 tournaments (1 failure to qualify)
Taylor - 0QF, 0SF in 1 tournament (1 failure to qualify)
Venables - 1QF, 1SF in 1 tournament
Hoddle - 0QF, 0SF in 1 tournament
Keegan - 0QF, 0 SF in 1 tournament
Sven - 3QF, 0 SF in 3 tournaments
McClaren - (1 failure to qualify)
Capello - 0QF 0SF in 1 tournament
Hodgson - 1QF 0SF in 2 tournaments
Southgate - 4QF, 3SF, 2F in 4 tournaments

(half the reason I wrote it out in full was to highlight JUST HOW MUCH BETTER Southgate's record is)

[Sutekh]

Yes, and he will continue to score goals if we continue to play him.

But we won’t win anything.

I’m just asking the question as to whether there might be a way of shuffling the pack that would get more out of the collective resources at Tuchel’s disposal so we COULD potentially take that next step and win a tournament.

But I do understand that getting CLOSE to winning things was always good enough for you under Southgate.

I don't have any stats to back it up but its always been my feeling that Kane goes missing in the really crunch games. The semi finals and final where we need everyone to perform at their best.

The problem here is that (a) semifinals and finals are rare* and (b) by definition you're playing better teams.

I guess you could compare his performances in friendly/Nations league games against teams of comparable stature? What's that - record vs Croatia, Italy, Spain, France etc in other games?

*going back in time and including discrete QFs

Robson - 2QF, 1SF in 3 tournaments (1 failure to qualify)
Taylor - 0QF, 0SF in 1 tournament (1 failure to qualify)
Venables - 1QF, 1SF in 1 tournament
Hoddle - 0QF, 0SF in 1 tournament
Keegan - 0QF, 0 SF in 1 tournament
Sven - 3QF, 0 SF in 3 tournaments
McClaren - (1 failure to qualify)
Capello - 0QF 0SF in 1 tournament
Hodgson - 1QF 0SF in 2 tournaments
Southgate - 4QF, 3SF, 2F in 4 tournaments

(half the reason I wrote it out in full was to highlight JUST HOW MUCH BETTER Southgate's record is)

I think fans accept that Southgate is better in terms of the achievements but many fans think his record should have been better, and would have been, had he been better at in game and tactical management.

[BRO_BOT]

I don't have any stats to back it up but its always been my feeling that Kane goes missing in the really crunch games. The semi finals and final where we need everyone to perform at their best.

The problem here is that (a) semifinals and finals are rare* and (b) by definition you're playing better teams.

I guess you could compare his performances in friendly/Nations league games against teams of comparable stature? What's that - record vs Croatia, Italy, Spain, France etc in other games?

*going back in time and including discrete QFs

Robson - 2QF, 1SF in 3 tournaments (1 failure to qualify)
Taylor - 0QF, 0SF in 1 tournament (1 failure to qualify)
Venables - 1QF, 1SF in 1 tournament
Hoddle - 0QF, 0SF in 1 tournament
Keegan - 0QF, 0 SF in 1 tournament
Sven - 3QF, 0 SF in 3 tournaments
McClaren - (1 failure to qualify)
Capello - 0QF 0SF in 1 tournament
Hodgson - 1QF 0SF in 2 tournaments
Southgate - 4QF, 3SF, 2F in 4 tournaments

(half the reason I wrote it out in full was to highlight JUST HOW MUCH BETTER Southgate's record is)

I think fans accept that Southgate is better in terms of the achievements but many fans think his record should have been better, and would have been, had he been better at in game and tactical management.

I checked who we went out to under all the managers listed.

We usually got defeated by a higher-ranked (or host nation) team that then made it to at least the semi-final.

Utd are being linked with Southgate...I'll be #out from the start if that happens

[BRO_BOT]

82 Greenwood: Germany, they made the final; we went out 2nd group stage
86 Robson: Argentina, winners; QF
90 Robson: Germany, winners; SF
94 Hoddle: Argentina, QF; 2nd round
02 Keegan: Brazil, winners; QF
06 Erikson: Portugal, SF; QF
10 Capello: Germany, SF; 2nd round
14 Hodgson: LOL
22 Southgate: France, final; QF

The Euro comps in the 80s and 90s make grim reading for England, tbf to Southgate, at least he navigated the group stage.

04 Erikson: Portugal, final; QF
12 Capello: Italy, final; QF
16 Hodgson: LOL

[Sutekh]

82 Greenwood: Germany, they made the final; we went out 2nd group stage

England looked pretty good in 82, pretty much failed due to cr@p luck with both Keegan and Brooking getting injured. Believe England were the only team in the 82 finals that didn’t lose. West Germany weren’t that good and were there for the taking. The Germans should have been beaten by England but got lucky and also should have been done by France in the semi but luckily got a totally incompetent set of match officials for that one.

86 Robson: Argentina, winners; QF

All know this one, lost due to Robson’s tactical stupidity in not playing the one player the Argentinians were **** scared of - John Barnes, no surprise once he did get on England sharpened up and scored. Even then though if a certain cheating little person hadn’t already done the damage it might have been enough.

90 Robson: Germany, winners; SF

Again, after the struggle through the group and attempt to let Cameroon win, England were superb in the semi and deserved to reach the final. Unfortunately what turned out to be the usual incompetence at penalties proved too much. Then who knows, the final that followed was quite possibly the Reading v Huddersfield of World Cup finals with neither team deserving to win.

94 Hoddle: Argentina, QF; 2nd round

98. Stitched up by Beckham being a wazzock but England would never have won it anyway.

02 Keegan: Brazil, winners; QF

This was, I believe, the fault of Sven and his Southgate-esque tactics. Got to the QF against Brazil and took the lead, then failed totally to try and take the game to them but instead to sit back and defend. Plus Seaman’s howler (which probably wasn’t but looked like one due to the brilliance of the strike).

06 Erikson: Portugal, SF; QF

Utter cr@p! Enough said.

10 Capello: Germany, SF; 2nd round

Maintained the 2006 form superbly, even with the incompetence of the officials v Germany England were hopeless.

14 Hodgson: LOL

Just don’t remember 2014 at all.

22 Southgate: France, final; QF

The Euro comps in the 80s and 90s make grim reading for England, tbf to Southgate, at least he navigated the group stage.

04 Erikson: Portugal, final; QF
12 Capello: Italy, final; QF
16 Hodgson: LOL

Think the Euros have always been a disaster for England.

1960 - Did not enter the competition
1964 - Lost 6-3 on aggregate to France in the Preliminary Round
1968 - 3rd place finish having lost to one of the two perennial bogey teams, Yugoslavia, in semi
1972 - QF, lost 3-1 at home to the other bogey team, West Germany, having won the qualifying group
1976 - Failed to win qualifying group, basic issue being 2 draws with Portugal, though a draw in Prague (lost 2-1) would have been enough. The group winners were Czechoslovakia who went on to win the tournament despite England having hammered them 3-0 at Wembley.

All the above tournaments basically didn’t have a “finals” in the proper sense, just the final 4 qualifying teams getting together for the semi’s, 3rd place play off and final in a country

1980 - Eight team finals, England finished 3rd in the group. Issue to everyone at the time was the struggle against Belgium and the England fans rioting during the game followed by the defeat to the Italian hosts. Belgium though went on to finish as tournament runners up after losing to West Germany in the final.

1984 - Failed to qualify due to utterly inept home performances against both Denmark and Greece. This was the year that Denmark joined the ranks of the better teams in Europe though (Olsen, Laudrup, Elkjaer etc.) rather than the usual run of the mill underdogs. They went on to lose to Spain in the tournament semi final.

1988 - One big embarrassment from beginning to end. Robson’s England wildly peaked and troughed throughout his tenure and this was a real stinker. England peaked in qualifying, winning every game apart from a 0-0 in Turkey and conceded only 1 goal in the process, consequently people expected a decent showing but what followed was a joke with defeat in every group game starting with Jack’s Irish. The Dutch comfortably won both the group and tournament and were easily the best team anyway.

1992 - Worse was to follow though, culminating in Taylor’s tactical genius of not playing Lineker in the last group game against Sweden, when a win was needed, as Denmark came from nowhere to win the tournament.

1996 - Probably the best ever Euros finals for England in terms of finishing as semi finalists while delivering possibly the most polished ever England finals performance with the complete annihilation of the Netherlands. Didn’t stop the usual German win though but at least England could also be noted for actually winning a penalty shoot out on the way to losing yet another against the Germans.

2000 - Failed to qualify from group stage. Threw away a two goal lead v Portugal and then went out of the way to concede a last minute penalty v Romania in the final game when a draw would have been enough to get through.

2004 - Lost on penalties to tournament runners up Portugal in the QFs. Might have been worse though, if England hadn’t conceded two injury time goals to France in their group game they could have been stuck with the embarrassment of instead losing to eventual tournament winners Greece in the QFs.

2008 - Saved the embarrassment of another finals disaster thanks to “umbrellaman” and his collection of truly cr@p results against the likes of Israel and Macedonia on top of the home defeat to Croatia.

2012 - Lost out on penalties, as usual, this time in the QFs to tournament runners up Italy.

2016 - Hodgson’s finest. Icelandic defeat in the round of 16! Only to be expected after the unimpressive group performances. Still good enough to beat the Welsh eventual semi finalists though.

[stealthpapes]

82 Greenwood: Germany, they made the final; we went out 2nd group stage
86 Robson: Argentina, winners; QF
90 Robson: Germany, winners; SF
98 Hoddle: Argentina, QF; 2nd round
02 Keegan: Brazil, winners; QF
06 Erikson: Portugal, SF; QF
10 Capello: Germany, SF; 2nd round
14 Hodgson: LOL
22 Southgate: France, final; QF

The Euro comps in the 80s and 90s make grim reading for England, tbf to Southgate, at least he navigated the group stage.

04 Erikson: Portugal, final; QF
08 McClaren LOL
12 Capello: Italy, final; QF
16 Hodgson: LOL

I think 08 through to 16 is a special kind of suck. Players were good, we'd been solid recently and yet ...

PS 2012 was Hodgson, Capello resigned in February that year.

We usually got defeated by a higher-ranked (or host nation) team that then made it to at least the semi-final.

That is typically what happens when you lose a quarter-final, yes.

[stealthpapes]

Going back to the Kane q, I'll find some time and compare his record vs

Croatia
Germany
Denmark
Italy
France
Holland
Spain

in both finals games vs friendlies vs other games vs those countries.

I don't think there will be enough games but maybe in the aggregate something will come up.

[stealthpapes]

In Friendlies/Qualifying, Kane has played 9 games vs those teams and scored 6 - this is close to his overall scoring rate for England
In Nations League, Kane has played 11 games and scored 3
In Major Competitions, Kane has played 8 games and scored 2

So, yeah, against better teams when things matter, he does appear to score less.

The only country I think I've missed that could matter is Belgium (5 games but 2 he didn't play in, the other 3 a WC play off, 2 Nations League)

[BRO_BOT]

We usually got defeated by a higher-ranked (or host nation) team that then made it to at least the semi-final.

That is typically what happens when you lose a quarter-final, yes.

yeah, I wrote the summary first and then started losing faith with it when that situation happened