A couple of misplaced passes aside, I thought that was one of Wilshere's best games for England, albeit in what wasn't much more than a training exercise.
Don't disagree with you HB about the striking talent we can call on, I was highlighting more the inexperience of our reserves, but then I guess that's a symptom of a relatively settled line-up previously. Just seems to me that other sides (Germany in particular spring to mind) have lots of squad players who have 20 caps to their name. I guess we're just in a transitional phase at the moment.
Re Sterling - if that performance is the result when his head wanders off, he's going to be a huge £50m risk for whoever buys him. How long until he gets bored at his new club?
England - the future....
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Silver Fox
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Genuinely had no idea England were playing yesterday
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6ft Kerplunk
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England team Genuinely had no idea England were playing yesterday
Sanguine A couple of misplaced passes aside, I thought that was one of Wilshere's best games for England, albeit in what wasn't much more than a training exercise.
Agreed. My only reservation is he still looks at his best when he's driving forward and going past players before playing his clever passes and 1-2's. I don't think that's really what we want from whoever is playing in that more holding role., although it'll no doubt be fine for the rest of qualifying but might leave us too exposed when we start playing the better teams again.Sanguine Don't disagree with you HB about the striking talent we can call on, I was highlighting more the inexperience of our reserves, but then I guess that's a symptom of a relatively settled line-up previously. Just seems to me that other sides (Germany in particular spring to mind) have lots of squad players who have 20 caps to their name. I guess we're just in a transitional phase at the moment.
Fair enough. Is that really the case or just a perception thing? I just had a quick look on Wiki at their squad and upfront they've got very few options, albeit that's taking the classification of players like Muller, Schurle and Draxler as wingers/midfielders.
The Germans do seem very good at getting their young players caps and integrating them so that they have what seems an endless flow of good players (which they have of course) but are we that far off in terms of young players with a good number of caps? They might not be as good but we have:
Wilshire, 27 caps, age 23
Sterling, 15, 20
Wellbeck, 33, 24
Walcott, 39, 26 (getting on a bit now!)
Oxlade-Chamberlain, 20, 21
Sturidge, 16, 25
Townsend, 8, 23 (thought he'd have more caps by now)
Henderson, 21, 24
Barklay, 13, 21
Jones, 23, 16 (thought he'd have more by now too)
Plus then a few more like Clyne, Shaw, Chambers and Stones who I think we need to see ramp up their involvement next season.
Certainly a team in transition though.
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Brosef Stalin
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3 Oh Walcott Millions - if anyone gets the ref i'll buy them a pint
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TBM
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Hoop Blah Wilshire, 27 caps, age 23
Sterling, 15, 20
Wellbeck, 33, 24
Walcott, 39, 26 (getting on a bit now!)
Oxlade-Chamberlain, 20, 21
Sturidge, 16, 25
Townsend, 8, 23 (thought he'd have more caps by now)
Henderson, 21, 24
Barklay, 13, 21
Jones, 23, 16 (thought he'd have more by now too)
Jones has had a hard life for a 16 year old....
TBM Jones has had a hard life for a 16 year old....
A decent number of caps though!!!
* obviously I got those numbers the wrong way round, in case anyone didn't realise...
Silver Fox Genuinely had no idea England were playing yesterday
Neither did England nor anyone who watched it.
I kind of forgot about it as well until the Saturday night.
Obviously the game wasn't on Sky and the Champions League final was the night before so we didn't have endless SSN updates on who was training and who wasn't and all the hype they get involved in, so that might explain it a little.
I wonder if the FA asked the media to lay off the build up a bit to try and let the game pass quietly as well. They apparently sent letters to all those with tickets asking them to behave after the trouble in '95 so perhaps is was just a hush hush campaign that kept it more low key.
Obviously the game wasn't on Sky and the Champions League final was the night before so we didn't have endless SSN updates on who was training and who wasn't and all the hype they get involved in, so that might explain it a little.
I wonder if the FA asked the media to lay off the build up a bit to try and let the game pass quietly as well. They apparently sent letters to all those with tickets asking them to behave after the trouble in '95 so perhaps is was just a hush hush campaign that kept it more low key.
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Handsome Man
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Hoop Blah I kind of forgot about it as well until the Saturday night.
Obviously the game wasn't on Sky and the Champions League final was the night before so we didn't have endless SSN updates on who was training and who wasn't and all the hype they get involved in, so that might explain it a little.
I wonder if the FA asked the media to lay off the build up a bit to try and let the game pass quietly as well. They apparently sent letters to all those with tickets asking them to behave after the trouble in '95 so perhaps is was just a hush hush campaign that kept it more low key.
I didn't watch either. I just got it into my head that it was one of those weekends you get in the summer where is no decent sport on and didn't check the schedule. When I hunted for it on ITV player my googling skills led me straight to a headline which said it was a crap game and 0-0 draw.
The U21's are in action at Barnsley tonight in their final build up game before the Euros.
Not sure if they think he'll play what he thinks is his strongest team but there's been a few nice pieces in the media about John Stones potential and qualities. That might be more about his Barnsley roots and selling tickets than the role Southgate sees for him for the tournament though!
Not sure if they think he'll play what he thinks is his strongest team but there's been a few nice pieces in the media about John Stones potential and qualities. That might be more about his Barnsley roots and selling tickets than the role Southgate sees for him for the tournament though!
A decent performance from the U21s tonight that should've resulted in a bigger winning margin but they were a bit sloppy in front of goal.
Southgate has got these lads playing really well and has a load of talented players and options and doesn't look to be wasting them like Pearce did before him.
Fingers crossed they can put up a good showing in the Euros over the next few weeks.
Southgate has got these lads playing really well and has a load of talented players and options and doesn't look to be wasting them like Pearce did before him.
Fingers crossed they can put up a good showing in the Euros over the next few weeks.
Hoop Blah A decent performance from the U21s tonight that should've resulted in a bigger winning margin but they were a bit sloppy in front of goal.
Southgate has got these lads playing really well and has a load of talented players and options and doesn't look to be wasting them like Pearce did before him.
Fingers crossed they can put up a good showing in the Euros over the next few weeks.
To be fair to Pearce a little it does help this time that they are heading to a finals without the FA removing half the squad to join up with England to play pointless friendlies and largely meaningless qualifiers instead.
But that didn't actually happen though did it?
There were a few eligible players who didn't go because they were Senior team players but I don't think Pearce lost a single player to that Brazil tour. He's moaned ever since about not having the best players available but the fact is he just didn't get anywhere near the best from his pretty talented squad.
An example for you, he played Adam Smith above Nathanial Clyne!
There were a few eligible players who didn't go because they were Senior team players but I don't think Pearce lost a single player to that Brazil tour. He's moaned ever since about not having the best players available but the fact is he just didn't get anywhere near the best from his pretty talented squad.
An example for you, he played Adam Smith above Nathanial Clyne!
Sutekh To be fair to Pearce a little it does help this time that they are heading to a finals without the FA removing half the squad to join up with England to play pointless friendlies and largely meaningless qualifiers instead.
For me the difference is that Southgate isn't moaning about not having players available and has instead not picked the likes of Barkley, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Wilshire, Jones, Shaw and Sterling against a whole lot of media pressure to concentrate on the squad he's put together over qualification.
It's building that squad and a way of playing that's really impressed me with Southgate.
I can see him getting the Senior job after Hodgson if he continues in this way.
An interesting piece in today's Times for anyone who has an interest in the development of English talent.
In the coaches’ room at St George’s Park, a clock is counting down the years, months, days, hours and minutes until the presumed start date of the 2022 World Cup. The challenge laid down by Greg Dyke is for England to be world champions in seven years’ time and, whether that means winning in summer or winter, in Qatar or anywhere else, it is becoming an obsession.
There is an undeniable temptation to call it a pipe dream, a target set in order to focus on longterm reform and to mitigate failure in the interim, but an hour in the company of Matt Crocker, the FA’s head of player development, leaves you feeling more optimistic about the way forward for English football.
“I truly believe our players are as good as anyone’s,” Crocker says. “I’ve seen it.
“The under-17s winning the Euros last year; the under-16s against Brazil, Portugal and America; the under-15s against Italy, Mexico, Japan; the under-18s, who are out in Russia at the moment. I honestly believe we’re as good as anything — and better, I think. I was out in Italy with the under-15s recently. In possession, technically, tactically, they played exactly the style we asked them to and we dominated all the games — 60 per cent possession, 60 per cent of it in the opposition half, 30 per cent in the final third. In terms of what we want to achieve with the ball, it was spot-on. Did we win every game? No we didn’t, but in terms of potential and development, you can see it.
“It’s about building a style of play based on possession — not just keeping the ball for the sake of it but possession with a purpose. We have the players to play that way. Every one of those players we took with our under-15s, we took because we knew a) they’re comfortable on the ball and b) they’re good learners and intelligent players.
“These are the age groups that I consider to be the next generation, where we can really bring to life what we’re trying to achieve. They get it. They buy into it. When our under-15s play Mexico and we keep the ball for two minutes, not letting them near the ball — and not just around the back, but in and out, pressure, in the final third, back out, back to the keeper, building up again — you can see the potential. What we have to do is turn that potential into performance.”
Ah yes, performance. England have not been terribly good at that down the years. There is more optimism about those born from 1996 onwards than any group of English youngsters since those born in the mid-to-late 1970s, but, for all that Rio Ferdinand, John Terry, Sol Campbell, Ashley Cole, David Beckham, Paul Scholes, Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard, Michael Owen and others achieved at club level, they encountered nothing but frustration on the international stage.
Whatever their technical prowess, it would take bravery to predict for Ruben Loftus-Cheek, Dominic Solanke, Sheyi Ojo, Patrick Roberts, Ryan Ledson, Tosin Adarabioyo and others to achieve even a fraction of what those players did in their careers. There remain serious concerns — expressed by Dyke, among many others — that Premier League managers will not show the patience to nurture such home-grown talent. That concern is greatest at Chelsea and City, where so many of the best English youngsters are concentrated, with so many obstacles blocking their way to the first team.
Crocker, who oversaw the development of Theo Walcott, Gareth Bale, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, Luke Shaw and others during his time managing Southampton’s academy, prefers to cite the benefits of seeing so much young English talent concentrated at Chelsea and City — not least the quality of the coaching and education programmes — but he adds: “Obviously at those clubs we all want the rates of English players into the senior team to be higher.
“Both clubs are producing some fantastic players. Longterm, if they’re getting a fantastic club programme — and Chelsea, in particular, won the FA Youth Cup again this year and the [Uefa] Youth League — these players are going to come through, whether at Chelsea or City or somewhere else. Hopefully it will be at those clubs and help to change those perceptions and more opportunities will grow from there.”
Crocker and his colleagues in the national set-up have little influence over what happens at club level. What they are determined to change is the feeling and culture around the England camp. For years or even decades, England teams have had little sense of identity — certainly in terms of playing style, but some would argue in a wider sense. The “England DNA” project left some observers cold, with its buzzwords and business jargon, but if it instils a greater sense of purpose, from the moment players first arrive at St George’s Park, it can only help.
For one thing, there is a greater emphasis on learning. “There’s intelligence and there’s being able to learn and apply yourself,” Crocker says.
“You can’t have an individual who is really creative and has great skills and attributes but who, when you’re building up to a game, is unable to apply the tactics on the pitch because he’s not a good learner. You might be a great player technically, but if you’re not a good learner and if socially, off the pitch, you’re not promoting the strength within the group, you might not be what we’re looking for. You have to have a growth mindset and be open to change and be prepared to apply what is happening in the game.”
Does this sound like a modern variation on that traditional English distrust of flair? “No, it’s definitely not that,” Crocker says. “In possession, we want those creative players to go out of shape and find spaces that others wouldn’t. We want to get the best out of them. We would rather address those problems now at 15 or 16, when they’ve got time to go away and work on them, than later, where you might have a problem on your hands.
“We’re looking at how players learn. Historically, as coaches, we’ve stood up in front of players, all sat in rows, and told them what we want. We don’t do that any more. We sit down with them in an open environment. We want environments like we have in the under-17s, where at the end of the team meetings, instead of wanting them to finish, the players are hanging around, asking questions, feeling part of that process.”
So where will that process take England by 2022? Is World Cup glory really a serious ambition? “Without a doubt we should be challenging in 2022 — and beyond that because it’s not just a one-off target,” Crocker says. “The talent is, genuinely, on a par with anywhere in the world. There are things we can’t control in terms of their development, but there’s an awful lot we can. There are no excuses.”
Generation game
Dominic Solanke Less well known than Ruben Loftus-Cheek but also highly rated at Chelsea, the 17-year-old forward starred last year as England won the European Under-17 Championship
Patrick Roberts Struggled at times to make an impact at Fulham this season, but the 18-year-old winger is extremely well regarded and is expected to attract interest from Premier League clubs this summer
Marcus Edwards Not yet a full-time professional and still physically slight at 16, but the Tottenham Hotspur playmaker excelled for England at the recent European Under-17 Championship
Tosin Adarabioyo The 6ft 5in central defender is the captain of Manchester City’s under-18 team and the 17-year-old excelled in England Under-18’s victory over Russia in Moscow on Monday
Jadon Sancho Signed by Manchester City from Watford in March, the skilful 15-year-old midfielder is a mainstay of the much-admired England Under-15 team
In the coaches’ room at St George’s Park, a clock is counting down the years, months, days, hours and minutes until the presumed start date of the 2022 World Cup. The challenge laid down by Greg Dyke is for England to be world champions in seven years’ time and, whether that means winning in summer or winter, in Qatar or anywhere else, it is becoming an obsession.
There is an undeniable temptation to call it a pipe dream, a target set in order to focus on longterm reform and to mitigate failure in the interim, but an hour in the company of Matt Crocker, the FA’s head of player development, leaves you feeling more optimistic about the way forward for English football.
“I truly believe our players are as good as anyone’s,” Crocker says. “I’ve seen it.
“The under-17s winning the Euros last year; the under-16s against Brazil, Portugal and America; the under-15s against Italy, Mexico, Japan; the under-18s, who are out in Russia at the moment. I honestly believe we’re as good as anything — and better, I think. I was out in Italy with the under-15s recently. In possession, technically, tactically, they played exactly the style we asked them to and we dominated all the games — 60 per cent possession, 60 per cent of it in the opposition half, 30 per cent in the final third. In terms of what we want to achieve with the ball, it was spot-on. Did we win every game? No we didn’t, but in terms of potential and development, you can see it.
“It’s about building a style of play based on possession — not just keeping the ball for the sake of it but possession with a purpose. We have the players to play that way. Every one of those players we took with our under-15s, we took because we knew a) they’re comfortable on the ball and b) they’re good learners and intelligent players.
“These are the age groups that I consider to be the next generation, where we can really bring to life what we’re trying to achieve. They get it. They buy into it. When our under-15s play Mexico and we keep the ball for two minutes, not letting them near the ball — and not just around the back, but in and out, pressure, in the final third, back out, back to the keeper, building up again — you can see the potential. What we have to do is turn that potential into performance.”
Ah yes, performance. England have not been terribly good at that down the years. There is more optimism about those born from 1996 onwards than any group of English youngsters since those born in the mid-to-late 1970s, but, for all that Rio Ferdinand, John Terry, Sol Campbell, Ashley Cole, David Beckham, Paul Scholes, Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard, Michael Owen and others achieved at club level, they encountered nothing but frustration on the international stage.
Whatever their technical prowess, it would take bravery to predict for Ruben Loftus-Cheek, Dominic Solanke, Sheyi Ojo, Patrick Roberts, Ryan Ledson, Tosin Adarabioyo and others to achieve even a fraction of what those players did in their careers. There remain serious concerns — expressed by Dyke, among many others — that Premier League managers will not show the patience to nurture such home-grown talent. That concern is greatest at Chelsea and City, where so many of the best English youngsters are concentrated, with so many obstacles blocking their way to the first team.
Crocker, who oversaw the development of Theo Walcott, Gareth Bale, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, Luke Shaw and others during his time managing Southampton’s academy, prefers to cite the benefits of seeing so much young English talent concentrated at Chelsea and City — not least the quality of the coaching and education programmes — but he adds: “Obviously at those clubs we all want the rates of English players into the senior team to be higher.
“Both clubs are producing some fantastic players. Longterm, if they’re getting a fantastic club programme — and Chelsea, in particular, won the FA Youth Cup again this year and the [Uefa] Youth League — these players are going to come through, whether at Chelsea or City or somewhere else. Hopefully it will be at those clubs and help to change those perceptions and more opportunities will grow from there.”
Crocker and his colleagues in the national set-up have little influence over what happens at club level. What they are determined to change is the feeling and culture around the England camp. For years or even decades, England teams have had little sense of identity — certainly in terms of playing style, but some would argue in a wider sense. The “England DNA” project left some observers cold, with its buzzwords and business jargon, but if it instils a greater sense of purpose, from the moment players first arrive at St George’s Park, it can only help.
For one thing, there is a greater emphasis on learning. “There’s intelligence and there’s being able to learn and apply yourself,” Crocker says.
“You can’t have an individual who is really creative and has great skills and attributes but who, when you’re building up to a game, is unable to apply the tactics on the pitch because he’s not a good learner. You might be a great player technically, but if you’re not a good learner and if socially, off the pitch, you’re not promoting the strength within the group, you might not be what we’re looking for. You have to have a growth mindset and be open to change and be prepared to apply what is happening in the game.”
Does this sound like a modern variation on that traditional English distrust of flair? “No, it’s definitely not that,” Crocker says. “In possession, we want those creative players to go out of shape and find spaces that others wouldn’t. We want to get the best out of them. We would rather address those problems now at 15 or 16, when they’ve got time to go away and work on them, than later, where you might have a problem on your hands.
“We’re looking at how players learn. Historically, as coaches, we’ve stood up in front of players, all sat in rows, and told them what we want. We don’t do that any more. We sit down with them in an open environment. We want environments like we have in the under-17s, where at the end of the team meetings, instead of wanting them to finish, the players are hanging around, asking questions, feeling part of that process.”
So where will that process take England by 2022? Is World Cup glory really a serious ambition? “Without a doubt we should be challenging in 2022 — and beyond that because it’s not just a one-off target,” Crocker says. “The talent is, genuinely, on a par with anywhere in the world. There are things we can’t control in terms of their development, but there’s an awful lot we can. There are no excuses.”
Generation game
Dominic Solanke Less well known than Ruben Loftus-Cheek but also highly rated at Chelsea, the 17-year-old forward starred last year as England won the European Under-17 Championship
Patrick Roberts Struggled at times to make an impact at Fulham this season, but the 18-year-old winger is extremely well regarded and is expected to attract interest from Premier League clubs this summer
Marcus Edwards Not yet a full-time professional and still physically slight at 16, but the Tottenham Hotspur playmaker excelled for England at the recent European Under-17 Championship
Tosin Adarabioyo The 6ft 5in central defender is the captain of Manchester City’s under-18 team and the 17-year-old excelled in England Under-18’s victory over Russia in Moscow on Monday
Jadon Sancho Signed by Manchester City from Watford in March, the skilful 15-year-old midfielder is a mainstay of the much-admired England Under-15 team
A pretty decent performance from England last night, despite being on the wrong end of the 1-0 scoreline.
Typically though I've seen a fair amount of negative comments and reports in the press who seem to revel in knocking the national team.
Portugal are one of the better teams about and I think I heard or read that they won 8 out of 8 in qualifying. We ran them very close in relatively entertaining and open game. We created more chances, forced more saves from their keeper despite some wasteful finishing and then lost to a bit of a soft goal when the ball fell to a forward off a deflection I our box.
Small margins and all that, but if we play as well against Sweden it'll set up a good final group game with Italy on Wednesday to allow us to progress into the semi's.
Typically though I've seen a fair amount of negative comments and reports in the press who seem to revel in knocking the national team.
Portugal are one of the better teams about and I think I heard or read that they won 8 out of 8 in qualifying. We ran them very close in relatively entertaining and open game. We created more chances, forced more saves from their keeper despite some wasteful finishing and then lost to a bit of a soft goal when the ball fell to a forward off a deflection I our box.
Small margins and all that, but if we play as well against Sweden it'll set up a good final group game with Italy on Wednesday to allow us to progress into the semi's.
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Royal Rother
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Didn't see the game myself but I heard one of the "presenters" on Talk Sport last night say that Southgate should be replaced immediately - he was (apparently) a useless manager at MBoro, useless in the media and still useless now that he's in charge of the U21s.
Heaven help us - this twat is paid to talk about sport to the nation. (Actually, I do realise he's not - he's paid to wind people up and get people to phone in, but anyway, that 2 minute rant was the extent of my particular tune-in last night.)
Heaven help us - this twat is paid to talk about sport to the nation. (Actually, I do realise he's not - he's paid to wind people up and get people to phone in, but anyway, that 2 minute rant was the extent of my particular tune-in last night.)
Anyone watching the U21s tonight?
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Four Of Clubs
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bobby1413 Anyone watching the U21s tonight?
...yup - finding it slightly difficult to disagree with what the Snord full-back was reported to have said about our lot before the game.
They appear to have much better technique on the ball than us (in spite of what our media - written and digital - would have us believe beforehand. Sweden were all but written off at the 1/2 hr mark, when they went behind and lost a man vs Italy in the last game) - if anything we do seem to have sharpened up the 'non-football' aspects much lacking previously in our squads at international tournaments i.e working much harder without the ball.
Stats don't give half the picture - can't quite credit the possession stats of 60:40 in our favour - but tellingly they have had less shots than us but have managed 50% on target now. We've have missed twice from close range - actually slo-mo suggests Hughes was unlucky - great block by their fellah.
Southgate's lads do look decidedly iffy at CB too ..... BUT of course we have Afobe and Ings to come and try the sabre and foil approach later on I s'pose.....
EDIT Ings on for Hughes and we go to 4-4-2 for the 2nd half - may do the trick ....
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