The Football Manager Disaster Thread sponsored by Big Fat Sam's pint of wine.

[6ft Kerplunk]

A few interesting comments from Martin Glenn, particularly the last paragraph.

As one of a trio of FA executives who decided to appoint Allardyce following England’s Euro 2016 humiliation, Glenn defended the process that led to the decision. He claimed the FA performed adequate due diligence and that he was not to blame for Allardyce’s “colossal error of judgment” during a meeting with undercover reporters from the Daily Telegraph.

Echoing the words of the FA chairman, Greg Clarke, this week, Glenn also said he felt personally let down. “The easy decision was to keep him and tough it out. I do feel let down because I genuinely think for football reasons he was a really good choice and just what we needed after the Euros,” he said.

Glenn said the right questions were asked during the appointment process about Allardyce’s past, including the Quest inquiry into football transfers in 2006 that coincided with allegations over transfer irregularities made in a BBC Panorama programme. Allardyce denied any wrongdoing.

“We knew he was a man of the world, we knew there had been a Panorama inquiry a few years ago. But he was a guy who had a senior position on the League Managers’ Association. Known in the game,” said Glenn. “We referenced him widely. He’s Sam, he’s loud, he’s brash but he is in the middle of the fairway in terms of behaviour. So I think that the reason I felt let down was, I guess, the surprise factor of it.”


Asked specifically about the fact that of the 17 transfers that were not signed off by the Quest inquiry, three related to players signed by Allardyce at Bolton Wanderers, Glenn said it was discussed at the interview and the FA’s integrity unit had no outstanding concerns.

“He was seen to be a stalwart of the game. Yes he’s Sam and he’s loud so we did understand that he’s not going to be the quietest person,” said Glenn. “But you could not have predicted that behaviour. I take full responsibility for the decision to hire him but I don’t take responsibility for his actions.”

Glenn said his disappointment was compounded by the fact Allardyce was specifically spoken to about his responsibilities and the need to assume everything he said could be made public shortly after his appointment. “It wasn’t the case that he was left like an innocent in the woods. Which is why the thing was ever more a surprise,” he said.

[Pepe the Horseman]

It's as if he wanted to get caught.

[Ian Royal]

Not sure what that's supposed to prove at this point.

It wasn't a bad team?

Which isn't the same as it not being weakened. Or more importantly doesn't have anything to do with an expectation it would be weaker or what the odds would be in advance.

[6ft Kerplunk]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/oct/04/wayne-rooney-sam-allardyce-england-left-me-battered

Rooney not happy at being shafted by Fat Sam.

[leon]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/oct/04/wayne-rooney-sam-allardyce-england-left-me-battered

Rooney not happy at being shafted by Fat Sam.

Comes across as a right whiner

[Hoop Blah]

Shuffling the deckchairs. Won't matter one jot without looking at the players five to ten years away from being pros.

I do disagree with the notion that we don't have talented players already though. I don't think it's technique or talent that's missing, more the environment that would allow them to flourish.

Just as an aside, England current U17s beat Germany 8-1 [eight!] the other day, hot on the heels of beating Croatia 5-0 in some 4 team tournament. It's only preparation for their upcoming Euro Qualifiers, so nothing to get too excited about, and I've no idea on the strength of the German side, but to win 8-1 is quite something whatever side they put out.

One of the England scorers was our very own Danny Loader too.

Apparently this now means that every age group apart from the under-20s have beat their German counterparts over the last few years.

Obviously the bit we're struggling with is turning good youth players into good senior players...for me that has to be a mental thing.

[Sutekh]

Shuffling the deckchairs. Won't matter one jot without looking at the players five to ten years away from being pros.

I do disagree with the notion that we don't have talented players already though. I don't think it's technique or talent that's missing, more the environment that would allow them to flourish.

Just as an aside, England current U17s beat Germany 8-1 [eight!] the other day, hot on the heels of beating Croatia 5-0 in some 4 team tournament. It's only preparation for their upcoming Euro Qualifiers, so nothing to get too excited about, and I've no idea on the strength of the German side, but to win 8-1 is quite something whatever side they put out.

One of the England scorers was our very own Danny Loader too.

Apparently this now means that every age group apart from the under-20s have beat their German counterparts over the last few years.

Obviously the bit we're struggling with is turning good youth players into good senior players...for me that has to be a mental thing.

Or a complete lack of sufficient opportunity due to the bloated overpaid mercenary crap that masquerades as the top division in England.

[Hoop Blah]

And, as if to complete the set, the u20s followed up their recent 2-0 win over the Dutch with a 3-1 win over the Germans!

[stealthpapes]

Given that the English way was always that we picked players based on size and strength at the younger ages and they then don't have the technical ability or mentality* when it matters, then yeah, nice results, but not sure what you can read from them.

If we start winning these sorts of competitions at the pointier end, then maybe something has started to creep into the duller heads out there. Both U-21 Euros and U-20 world cup are next year, in Poland and Korea respectively, England have qualified for both.


* yes! you've finally clocked that mental attributes and 'intelligence' are important, good, you're learning.

[Hoop Blah]

Given that the English way was always that we picked players based on size and strength at the younger ages and they then don't have the technical ability or mentality* when it matters, then yeah, nice results, but not sure what you can read from them.

If we start winning these sorts of competitions at the pointier end, then maybe something has started to creep into the duller heads out there. Both U-21 Euros and U-20 world cup are next year, in Poland and Korea respectively, England have qualified for both.


* yes! you've finally clocked that mental attributes and 'intelligence' are important, good, you're learning.

I think the cliche of England picking the biggest and strongest players has been inaccurate for a long time. The Academy system is producing lots of technical players who are combining athletic prowess with technical ability and they appear to do well against their opposition right up until the final stages of development when they should be becoming strong first team players and performing better in the latter stages of the U21 tournaments.

I've never said mental attributes aren't a major part of a players makeup or that greater football intelligence and a bit more willingness to take responsibility wasn't part of England becoming more successful.

The debate we had some time ago was around the need for English players to be more rounded, educated and intelligent off the pitch (your view at the time) whereas I still maintain that although that may help it's the football intelligence that we need and that can absolutely exist without traditional intelligence (see the likes of Ferdinand, Beckham or Rooney for examples of that).

[stealthpapes]

I've never said mental attributes aren't a major part of a players makeup or that greater football intelligence and a bit more willingness to take responsibility wasn't part of England becoming more successful.

You've constantly argued with me about this and that's basically my main point. That's what I've been saying for years.

So what the actual fuck were you arguing about?

Ah ...

The debate we had some time ago was around the need for English players to be more rounded, educated and intelligent off the pitch (your view at the time) w

No. No it wasn't. You have fundamentally misunderstood my point. Or conflated it with something else. Christ knows.

See you in 2018.

[stealthpapes]

So we actually agree.

Excellent.

Now, what do England need to change, what needs to be looked into, to do something about it?

A far more interesting debate/discussion.

[Hoop Blah]

Now, what do England need to change, what needs to be looked into, to do something about it?

A far more interesting debate/discussion.

I think there is a fair amount of truth to the idea that our young players don't get to play enough proper, competitive and meaningful first team football between the ages of, say, 18-23. I think the English game is getting pretty good at producing technically sufficient players but they seem to lack the minerals to perform and that might be because they're overly mollycoddled through the Academy system and then over rewarded by the big clubs hoovering up the talent and paying them big money to play U21 and loan football when they should be earning their stripes.

To address that I'd like to see something put in place to reduce squad sizes and the stockpiling of young talent. How you do that without breaking some laws and regulations I'm not sure.

That might help our players train on a bit more and fulfill their potential more consistently.

The second part of the problem, IMO, is more a wider issue within society. There's far too much hype over the players we produce, the quality of opposition, the importance of games, the reliance on star performers and the celebrity of the key players, and the expectations of what we should be achieving. How do we stop the endemic of hyperbole? Is that just my perception of an issue that doesn't really exist? Would playing down that just take the fun out of it too much? Do they just need to toughen up a bit and deal with it instead?

[stealthpapes]

I wonder how much the hype part varies to other countries, such as Spain or Italy.

I'd add a third which might have been where the misunderstanding came in, in that we (as a nation, from fan to footballer) don't take the idea that there's a theoretical side to the sport seriously. I'm putting tactics, sports science, psychology, all of that, under one title. Some of it might not be relevant but there's a real trend in the way we talk about the sport that thinking about it is in someway not how the game is done.

It is changing, but very, very slowly.

I do think where we do disagree - and I'm not sure if its just semantics and quibbling - is in the line:

I think the English game is getting pretty good at producing technically sufficient players but they seem to lack the minerals to perform

I don't think they are good enough and what kills the side in the end is that they don't have the technical ability to actually perform well when it matters and when they're up against the wall. Are they choking or are they panicking? Does it matter which of the two they are doing? They revert to instinct and it fails them, because they're not good enough to pull it off.




(if you have the time: http://gladwell.com/the-art-of-failure/)

[Sutekh]

What England need is impossible to find. They need a strong minded, determined manager who is not afraid to be his own man and commands respect. Someone who will mould a TEAM where it is the TEAM that matters and not individuals. Someone who will look across all countries and all divisions to find the players that will make that TEAM.

Given the days of Shankly, Paisley, Clough, Busby and Robson are long over the nearest available name is Sir Alex but he wouldn't manage England for all the gold in the world. Next name that crosses the mind is perhaps Terry Venables but after that you're looking abroad for someone as English/British managers dont get the jobs with top sides any more and so there would always be whether any players selected would have true respect for someone without a "record".

Personally as I dont believe you need a "record", just a proven abilty to get great results from perhaps limited resources consistently, then we should be looking at the likes of Pardew.

[Hoop Blah]

It's probably a bit of a chicken and egg situation, but I tend to think our players have the technical skills but freeze under the pressure and don't apply them sufficiently, as opposed to freezing or coming up short because they don't have the skills. We don't have the depth of Iniesta style midfielders that Spain have, but we do still have our own style of players who are, IMO, technically good enough.

Slightly different, but I think this from Lingard sums up the attitude of [some of] our players: https://twitter.com/JesseLingard/status/786171599955329025

He's been warned by his senior teammates and manager that he needs to keep his emotions in check but publicly comes out with that. Just shows a lack of respect and willingness to learn or put the teams needs ahead of his own. I put that, in part, down to the way they're pampered and have their ego's massaged.

[Uke]

All gone very quiet on the Telegraph exclusives naming and shaming front...

[Ian Royal]

I wonder how much the hype part varies to other countries, such as Spain or Italy.

I'd add a third which might have been where the misunderstanding came in, in that we (as a nation, from fan to footballer) don't take the idea that there's a theoretical side to the sport seriously. I'm putting tactics, sports science, psychology, all of that, under one title. Some of it might not be relevant but there's a real trend in the way we talk about the sport that thinking about it is in someway not how the game is done.

It is changing, but very, very slowly.

I do think where we do disagree - and I'm not sure if its just semantics and quibbling - is in the line:

I think the English game is getting pretty good at producing technically sufficient players but they seem to lack the minerals to perform

I don't think they are good enough and what kills the side in the end is that they don't have the technical ability to actually perform well when it matters and when they're up against the wall. Are they choking or are they panicking? Does it matter which of the two they are doing? They revert to instinct and it fails them, because they're not good enough to pull it off.




(if you have the time: http://gladwell.com/the-art-of-failure/)

I think we get young players with very good technique, but I think when they do play, it's almost trained out of them in PL matches. By the time they play much for England, they've been hyped up beyond belief and struggling to meet that expectation, combined with not mostly playing against inferior teams and the blunting of their initiative.

I think we do a bad job of training players how to use their technique for the team. Decision making always seems to be awful for us, speed of mind is slow.

[exileinleeds]

What England need is impossible to find. They need a strong minded, determined manager who is not afraid to be his own man and commands respect. Someone who will mould a TEAM where it is the TEAM that matters and not individuals. Someone who will look across all countries and all divisions to find the players that will make that TEAM.

Given the days of Shankly, Paisley, Clough, Busby and Robson are long over the nearest available name is Sir Alex but he wouldn't manage England for all the gold in the world. Next name that crosses the mind is perhaps Terry Venables but after that you're looking abroad for someone as English/British managers dont get the jobs with top sides any more and so there would always be whether any players selected would have true respect for someone without a "record".

Personally as I dont believe you need a "record", just a proven abilty to get great results from perhaps limited resources consistently, then we should be looking at the likes of Pardew.

Basically, you want SSC. If only.

[Uke]

Warnock will on the list surely. Especially when you consider Puncheon's tweets from a while ago.

Questions are being asked...

A committee of MPs has heard claims Cardiff City manager Neil Warnock made players pay to be selected for games.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37679431