VAR

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Zip
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Re: VAR

by Zip » 23 Feb 2020 22:18

Tails Notice the Wales v France game today, contentious decision as to whether France deliberately knock on. Decision was that it wasn’t, disagreement in the studio but everyone was able to move on and not wet the bed about it.

A decision was made, people have disagreed, but move on. It hasn’t affected the result has it?


Hmm I thought it was a very poor decision and did affect the result.

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Re: VAR

by Stranded » 24 Feb 2020 08:57

Zip
Tails Notice the Wales v France game today, contentious decision as to whether France deliberately knock on. Decision was that it wasn’t, disagreement in the studio but everyone was able to move on and not wet the bed about it.

A decision was made, people have disagreed, but move on. It hasn’t affected the result has it?


Hmm I thought it was a very poor decision and did affect the result.


I thought it was correct - for me deliberate knock on involves the player actively looking for the ball - not it being grounded as he is attempting a tackle but still wouldn't have been surprised if it had gone the other way.

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Re: VAR

by Hendo » 24 Feb 2020 09:27

genome Absolutely ridiculous from VAR in the Chelsea-Tottenham match, they don't send off Lo Celso for a stamp and obvious red card, and then later (while the match is still going on) they admit they got it wrong! :lol:

I mean, I have Spurs allegiances, but fcuk me, that was as stonewall a red as you'll see all season.


Adding to the joke, I don't think he is going to face any retrospective action.

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Re: VAR

by Stranded » 24 Feb 2020 09:30

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Tails Aye, but the pundits and pros don’t make a meal of it and thus the narrative is a lot more palatable to watch as a spectacle.

The football coverage is just so much less appealing when you have those decisions coupled with Garth Crooks going off for 10 minutes.

Sure the rule makers can reflect on lessons learned on a macro level, and the officials should have a review of their decisions on a micro level (and use of VAR in making those decisions). Pundits and pros can provide constructive comments but keep the majority of the analysis on the football.

The major difference is that the TMO ‘controversies’ seem significantly lower in number. So much so, that this incident this weekend is so out of the ordinary.

With football, and there’s a large number just from yesterday, the use of VAR was supposed to get rid of the controversy. It’s done nothing of the sort.
What is is showing is that, far from being a human error issue with referees, they really are not very good. The two red card incidents this week, the two ridiculous handball incidents in one game yesterday (Burnley/Bournemouth not Leicester/ManCity, although that had a couple of debatable)

How can anyone support a system that can look at incidents multiple times, then 20 minutes later decide, ‘Sorry guys, got that one wrong’ ?


VAR isn’t the issue. The issue is the complete lack of any ethical principles in football. Zero respect for officials, zero respect for your opponent. There would be no need for VAR if there was a healthy attitude in the game that said ‘we ask officials to referee honestly and without bias, but we recognise they are not perfect and will make mistakes’. Officiating in sport is much easier if the players are honest and don’t constantly try to cheat. Of course you want officials to be the best they can but football is fundamentally unsuited to the use of VAR from a technical and an ethical stand point.
Sports where VAR works use it to essentially make decisions on matters of fact but football officiating is largely opinion based, not fact based.


This. It's been quite telling since Mike Dean went on Crouch's podcast that one of the lead narratives is that Crouch, and possibly most other pros, simply did not realise the years and years of work referee's have put in to get where they are especially those who are in the PL. He seemed quite taken aback by it.

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Re: VAR

by Silver Fox » 24 Feb 2020 09:45

The Burnley - Bournemouth decisions weren't crazy for me, if a touch harsh and obviously Garth Crooks saying that once Mike Dean had said it wasn't a pen that should have been the end of it was stupid beyond belief

However, the VAR controversies in the Chelsea and Leicester games would bring to an end the whole ridiculous experiment if there was half an ounce of sanity in the game, absolute nonsense.


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Re: VAR

by Zip » 24 Feb 2020 10:00

Silver Fox The Burnley - Bournemouth decisions weren't crazy for me, if a touch harsh and obviously Garth Crooks saying that once Mike Dean had said it wasn't a pen that should have been the end of it was stupid beyond belief

However, the VAR controversies in the Chelsea and Leicester games would bring to an end the whole ridiculous experiment if there was half an ounce of sanity in the game, absolute nonsense.


I thought the first decision was very poor in the Burnley v Bournemouth game. The ball hit the player’s shoulder. The second decision could have gone either way and it was unfortunate Bournemouth broke quickly and scored only to brought back to the handball incident.

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Re: VAR

by Franchise FC » 24 Feb 2020 10:34

Zip
Silver Fox The Burnley - Bournemouth decisions weren't crazy for me, if a touch harsh and obviously Garth Crooks saying that once Mike Dean had said it wasn't a pen that should have been the end of it was stupid beyond belief

However, the VAR controversies in the Chelsea and Leicester games would bring to an end the whole ridiculous experiment if there was half an ounce of sanity in the game, absolute nonsense.


I thought the first decision was very poor in the Burnley v Bournemouth game. The ball hit the player’s shoulder. The second decision could have gone either way and it was unfortunate Bournemouth broke quickly and scored only to brought back to the handball incident.

If Bournemouth hadn't scored would the Burnley penalty still have been given ?
If the answer is no, then that's the absurdity of it all

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Re: VAR

by Hendo » 24 Feb 2020 10:37

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Silver Fox The Burnley - Bournemouth decisions weren't crazy for me, if a touch harsh and obviously Garth Crooks saying that once Mike Dean had said it wasn't a pen that should have been the end of it was stupid beyond belief

However, the VAR controversies in the Chelsea and Leicester games would bring to an end the whole ridiculous experiment if there was half an ounce of sanity in the game, absolute nonsense.


I thought the first decision was very poor in the Burnley v Bournemouth game. The ball hit the player’s shoulder. The second decision could have gone either way and it was unfortunate Bournemouth broke quickly and scored only to brought back to the handball incident.

If Bournemouth hadn't scored would the Burnley penalty still have been given ?
If the answer is no, then that's the absurdity of it all


I think it might've been TBH.

Think about the Man City penalty that was given against Spurs a few weeks ago.

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Re: VAR

by Silver Fox » 24 Feb 2020 10:38

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Silver Fox The Burnley - Bournemouth decisions weren't crazy for me, if a touch harsh and obviously Garth Crooks saying that once Mike Dean had said it wasn't a pen that should have been the end of it was stupid beyond belief

However, the VAR controversies in the Chelsea and Leicester games would bring to an end the whole ridiculous experiment if there was half an ounce of sanity in the game, absolute nonsense.


I thought the first decision was very poor in the Burnley v Bournemouth game. The ball hit the player’s shoulder. The second decision could have gone either way and it was unfortunate Bournemouth broke quickly and scored only to brought back to the handball incident.

If Bournemouth hadn't scored would the Burnley penalty still have been given ?
If the answer is no, then that's the absurdity of it all


I don't see why it wouldn't have been?


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Re: VAR

by genome » 24 Feb 2020 10:49

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With football, and there’s a large number just from yesterday, the use of VAR was supposed to get rid of the controversy. It’s done nothing of the sort.
What is is showing is that, far from being a human error issue with referees, they really are not very good. The two red card incidents this week, the two ridiculous handball incidents in one game yesterday (Burnley/Bournemouth not Leicester/ManCity, although that had a couple of debatable)

How can anyone support a system that can look at incidents multiple times, then 20 minutes later decide, ‘Sorry guys, got that one wrong’ ?


VAR isn’t the issue. The issue is the complete lack of any ethical principles in football. Zero respect for officials, zero respect for your opponent. There would be no need for VAR if there was a healthy attitude in the game that said ‘we ask officials to referee honestly and without bias, but we recognise they are not perfect and will make mistakes’. Officiating in sport is much easier if the players are honest and don’t constantly try to cheat. Of course you want officials to be the best they can but football is fundamentally unsuited to the use of VAR from a technical and an ethical stand point.
Sports where VAR works use it to essentially make decisions on matters of fact but football officiating is largely opinion based, not fact based.


This is a good point. Another reason why TMO works well, is, everyone generally respects the referee. So much so you can actually mic them up with confidence and hear their discussions.

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Re: VAR

by Sanguine » 24 Feb 2020 11:19

Respect is really the key point. There was an incident off the ball at Twickenham yesterday, Maro Itoje and CJ Stander had a bit of a tumble around. Referee called them over, gave them a lecture (with captains there too), and they walked off saying 'no problem ref, understood', and looking a bit sheepish.

I don't understand, and never have, the reluctance of FIFA to really crack down on dissent and on attitudes towards officials because as said above, it is the root of the game's problems, and part of the reason we 'need' VAR.

Make bad language towards the referee and simulation both automatic red card offences and the game would change overnight.

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Re: VAR

by Zip » 24 Feb 2020 11:35

Sanguine Respect is really the key point. There was an incident off the ball at Twickenham yesterday, Maro Itoje and CJ Stander had a bit of a tumble around. Referee called them over, gave them a lecture (with captains there too), and they walked off saying 'no problem ref, understood', and looking a bit sheepish.

I don't understand, and never have, the reluctance of FIFA to really crack down on dissent and on attitudes towards officials because as said above, it is the root of the game's problems, and part of the reason we 'need' VAR.

Make bad language towards the referee and simulation both automatic red card offences and the game would change overnight.


Unfortunately dissent is creeping into rugby union too. Lots of arm waving, telling the referee what to think etc. We haven’t reached the stage of in the ref’s face Roy Keane levels yet and I hope it doesn’t descend to that.

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Re: VAR

by John Madejski's Wallet » 24 Feb 2020 11:54

Zip
Sanguine Respect is really the key point. There was an incident off the ball at Twickenham yesterday, Maro Itoje and CJ Stander had a bit of a tumble around. Referee called them over, gave them a lecture (with captains there too), and they walked off saying 'no problem ref, understood', and looking a bit sheepish.

I don't understand, and never have, the reluctance of FIFA to really crack down on dissent and on attitudes towards officials because as said above, it is the root of the game's problems, and part of the reason we 'need' VAR.

Make bad language towards the referee and simulation both automatic red card offences and the game would change overnight.


Unfortunately dissent is creeping into rugby union too. Lots of arm waving, telling the referee what to think etc. We haven’t reached the stage of in the ref’s face Roy Keane levels yet and I hope it doesn’t descend to that.

^^ Yeah see Owen Farrell's little spaz at the ref over the leg-holding incident yesterday


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Re: VAR

by Snowflake Royal » 24 Feb 2020 19:36

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VAR isn’t the issue. The issue is the complete lack of any ethical principles in football. Zero respect for officials, zero respect for your opponent. There would be no need for VAR if there was a healthy attitude in the game that said ‘we ask officials to referee honestly and without bias, but we recognise they are not perfect and will make mistakes’. Officiating in sport is much easier if the players are honest and don’t constantly try to cheat. Of course you want officials to be the best they can but football is fundamentally unsuited to the use of VAR from a technical and an ethical stand point.
Sports where VAR works use it to essentially make decisions on matters of fact but football officiating is largely opinion based, not fact based.

That's absolutely correct.
The problem that needs to be solved is that the football administrators want to start with grass roots when that's the exact opposite of what is needed.
Instil the discipline at the top level and the kids will follow. Try from the other end and the kids will just point to the 'stars' and say 'Well, they get away with it'
Why, oh why, won't the laws concerning things like dissent use some of the laws from other sports.
Show dissent, take the ball forward 10 yards for the other team (include in that not retreating at a free kick).
If that takes the ball into the penalty area, then give a penalty. Carry on and award a penalty goal.
I'm willing to bet that the disrespect would stop very, very quickly.
It would also mean fewer yellow cards for dissent and there would be no need. A penalty goal is significantly more damaging than taking a yellow card.
And before some bright spark says 'They've tried that'. Well, no they really haven't. Last time it was take the ball 10 yards AND book the perpetrator. Don't bother with the booking at all.

It could also work for wasting time at a restart. Take too much time, then switch the decision to the opposition. I would include swapping a goal kick for a corner.

To me it sounds so simple and seems to be so effective. But no, let's have a system that the referees clearly cannot manage properly and which does little to stop the controversies.


I love some of the changes hockey made and an experiment in football would be interesting. Granted they weren’t made to solve a discipline issue but nonetheless. Th8ngs like you can take a free kick to yourself and wherever you have the ball. Huge advantage in just cracking on and restarting straightaway without this nonsense about getting the ball on the exact spot and stopping players encroaching. It’s also an offence for a defender to play the ball after the whistle has gone, so you don’t knock the ball away or pick it up and stop the hit being taken. I’d do the same in football, touch the ball after the whistle and the kick goes forward 10 yards.
Rather than moving the ball forward for dissent I would have 5 minute suspensions. Imagine if 4 players surround the ref and he gives them all 5 mins in the naughty step ! The rule requiring minimum numbers on the pitch would not apply. I reckon dissent would stop over night !

It's the Sin bin I'd probably go with to solve everything.

Dissent - off to the bench
stand in front of a free kick - off you go to the bench
kick the ball away - bench
refuse to return the ball - bench
Hell obviously cynical foul - oxf*rd off to the bench you prick
Ages on a throw, corner or GK - bench
Oh what? It's your keeper? Sucks to be you. Bench.
Dive - bench


Feigning injury? I'd have physio's okeyed to come on without a stoppage and carry on for anything other than really obvious dangerous stuff, or goalmouths. And anyone, anywhere, caught out feigning a head injury when contact was on their leg gets a 3 game ban, a big fine and some community work.


Sorry, I appear to have gone a bit fascist.

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Re: VAR

by Royal Rother » 24 Feb 2020 20:31

I agree with just about everything said re the suggested rule changes in the last couple of pages, especially re respect and dissent.

Actually things aren’t as bad as they were when Rooney was in his prime and used to habitually scream at the ref to F off several times every game but the attempts to cut out dissent have been half-hearted at best. It’s pathetic really.

(And Garth Crooks is embarrassing.)

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Re: VAR

by Tails » 24 Feb 2020 20:56

Zip
Tails Notice the Wales v France game today, contentious decision as to whether France deliberately knock on. Decision was that it wasn’t, disagreement in the studio but everyone was able to move on and not wet the bed about it.

A decision was made, people have disagreed, but move on. It hasn’t affected the result has it?


Hmm I thought it was a very poor decision and did affect the result.


Sorry Zip, that last bit was for the football. Thought France have had the rub of the green in al their matches so far. Certainly Against Wales and England.

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Re: VAR

by Zip » 24 Feb 2020 21:14

Tails
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Tails Notice the Wales v France game today, contentious decision as to whether France deliberately knock on. Decision was that it wasn’t, disagreement in the studio but everyone was able to move on and not wet the bed about it.

A decision was made, people have disagreed, but move on. It hasn’t affected the result has it?


Hmm I thought it was a very poor decision and did affect the result.


Sorry Zip, that last bit was for the football. Thought France have had the rub of the green in al their matches so far. Certainly Against Wales and England.


No worries. Yes their resurgence is being a bit overstated. They started both games well against England and Wales but had plenty of luck on their side.

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Re: VAR

by Silver Fox » 01 Mar 2020 17:06

So why can’t VAR fix the clear and obvious error the linesman made by giving Man City a corner that they then scored from? It really is a massive waste of time

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Re: VAR

by AthleticoSpizz » 01 Mar 2020 17:13

Amen to that

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Re: VAR

by BR0B0T » 01 Mar 2020 17:17

Been gr8 for us recently!

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