One for HNA? refs - offside or not?

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Ark Royal
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One for HNA? refs - offside or not?

by Ark Royal » 11 Jun 2019 20:32

Had a bit of an argument with a lino during my U15 boys' last league game at the weekend over the interpretation of 'being active' in an offside decision (or non-decision). Perhaps collective body of HNA? refs out there can answer this:

A ball was played through the middle in our half to an opposing forward, who was at least five yards beyond our final defender when the ball was played and clearly offside. The lino (on opposite touchline) initially raised his flag as my centre-half intercepted the pass, but the only reason he intercepted the pass was because the forward became 'active' by motioning toward the ball to try and win it. As soon as the centre-half took a touch, the lino lowered his flag. I shouted that the forward was offside because he became 'active', but the lino on my side of the field said he was played onside because my centre-half took a touch. My argument was that the forward was offside FIRST and should have been flagged when he motioned towards the ball. The opposite lino should also have kept his flag up after making his initial decision.

Mini-barney ensued as I was convinced he was wrong. HNA? refs' decision?

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Re: One for HNA? refs - offside or not?

by sheshnu » 11 Jun 2019 20:58

This pops up from time to time, and the general consensus (I think) is that if it happens to Chelsea then everybody has a chuckle.

This is from Ask the Ref, and seems to say that you were right but the lino doesn't really get any help from the lawmakers. You can see why he allowed it (wrongly). You should have asked for VAR:

http://www.asktheref.com/Soccer%20Rules/Question/33279/

There were some changes to law 11 in recent years but the state of the current law is not quite as you describe. There is nothing in law 11 in relation to gaining an advantage, that talks about a defender using the head or foot. At the risk of sounding a little patronising, I would say that often the best way to understand what the law says, is to read what it says.

The actual wording that covers what I think you are referring to is:

''A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by any opponent) is not considered to have gained an advantage.''

You will see from this that the important thing is not which body part the defender uses to play the ball, but whether the play was deliberate. Unfortunately, there is no additional guidance in the law itself to aid the referee in deciding what constitutes a deliberate play (as opposed to a deflection, which does not 'reset' offside). However for what it's worth, both FIFA and UEFA have in the past, published documents giving the following criteria:

''Deliberate Play: Player moving towards the ball; The ball is expected; A deliberate act; Enough time to play; Balanced and ready to play; The ball is properly played

Deflection: Ball moving towards the player; Finds the ball coming against him; An instinctive reaction attempt to play the ball; Not enough time to play the ball; Has to find his balance first; The ball deflects from the player''


(Apologies for the serious answer).

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Re: One for HNA? refs - offside or not?

by From Despair To Where? » 11 Jun 2019 22:10

I thought the linos were meant to keep their flags down until the player becomes active as no offence has been caused prior to the player being active.

IMO, if the lino initially raises his flag, he's indicating an active player and he can't reverse it when the defender touches the ball because, by raising his flag, he's influenced the defender's decision making.

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Re: One for HNA? refs - offside or not?

by dizzynewheights » 12 Jun 2019 08:07

Ark Royal Had a bit of an argument with a lino during my U15 boys' last league game at the weekend


You want to have a serious word with yourself

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Re: One for HNA? refs - offside or not?

by Winston Biscuit » 12 Jun 2019 10:51

From Despair To Where? I thought the linos were meant to keep their flags down until the player becomes active as no offence has been caused prior to the player being active.

IMO, if the lino initially raises his flag, he's indicating an active player and he can't reverse it when the defender touches the ball because, by raising his flag, he's influenced the defender's decision making.


this^. You don't become active then inactive again just because you tried to be involved in play but were too sh*t to get to the ball before someone else


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Re: One for HNA? refs - offside or not?

by LWJ » 12 Jun 2019 15:23

Ark Royal Had a bit of an argument with a lino during my U15 boys' last league game at the weekend over the interpretation of 'being active' in an offside decision (or non-decision). Perhaps collective body of HNA? refs out there can answer this:

A ball was played through the middle in our half to an opposing forward, who was at least five yards beyond our final defender when the ball was played and clearly offside. The lino (on opposite touchline) initially raised his flag as my centre-half intercepted the pass, but the only reason he intercepted the pass was because the forward became 'active' by motioning toward the ball to try and win it. As soon as the centre-half took a touch, the lino lowered his flag. I shouted that the forward was offside because he became 'active', but the lino on my side of the field said he was played onside because my centre-half took a touch. My argument was that the forward was offside FIRST and should have been flagged when he motioned towards the ball. The opposite lino should also have kept his flag up after making his initial decision.

Mini-barney ensued as I was convinced he was wrong. HNA? refs' decision?

Qualified ref.

Initial thought is the attacking player isn't yet active. He needs to challenge for, or touch the ball. Making a movement from a distance away doesn't constitute this. How close was he to challenging before the touch?

As your defender has intercepted it before this could happen, the AR should have kept his flag down. Were they qualified neutral assistants or club appointed? (IE parents)

There is no harm in him lowering his flag once it's raised, if he has realised his error. His flag doesn't dictate the start and stop of play for decisions on the pitch, so players should ignore it until they hear the whistle. The referee could have given the offside as a way of 'safe refereeing' as it sounds like it was in a pretty neutral area of the pitch.

I always instruct my club assistants that I want a late flag, because a late flag gives them a few seconds to make the right decision and that's all that matters.

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Re: One for HNA? refs - offside or not?

by Ark Royal » 12 Jun 2019 16:26

LWJ
Ark Royal Had a bit of an argument with a lino during my U15 boys' last league game at the weekend over the interpretation of 'being active' in an offside decision (or non-decision). Perhaps collective body of HNA? refs out there can answer this:

A ball was played through the middle in our half to an opposing forward, who was at least five yards beyond our final defender when the ball was played and clearly offside. The lino (on opposite touchline) initially raised his flag as my centre-half intercepted the pass, but the only reason he intercepted the pass was because the forward became 'active' by motioning toward the ball to try and win it. As soon as the centre-half took a touch, the lino lowered his flag. I shouted that the forward was offside because he became 'active', but the lino on my side of the field said he was played onside because my centre-half took a touch. My argument was that the forward was offside FIRST and should have been flagged when he motioned towards the ball. The opposite lino should also have kept his flag up after making his initial decision.

Mini-barney ensued as I was convinced he was wrong. HNA? refs' decision?

Qualified ref.

Initial thought is the attacking player isn't yet active. He needs to challenge for, or touch the ball. Making a movement from a distance away doesn't constitute this. How close was he to challenging before the touch?

As your defender has intercepted it before this could happen, the AR should have kept his flag down. Were they qualified neutral assistants or club appointed? (IE parents)

There is no harm in him lowering his flag once it's raised, if he has realised his error. His flag doesn't dictate the start and stop of play for decisions on the pitch, so players should ignore it until they hear the whistle. The referee could have given the offside as a way of 'safe refereeing' as it sounds like it was in a pretty neutral area of the pitch.

I always instruct my club assistants that I want a late flag, because a late flag gives them a few seconds to make the right decision and that's all that matters.


Qualified refs. My center-half got a look over his shoulder and was aware that the forward was close enough to warrant that first touch away from what he thought was going to be a challenge. The forward was close enough to try and win back the ball. That challenge - in my eyes - made him active and therefore offside.

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Re: One for HNA? refs - offside or not?

by LWJ » 12 Jun 2019 16:47

Ark Royal
Qualified refs. My center-half got a look over his shoulder and was aware that the forward was close enough to warrant that first touch away from what he thought was going to be a challenge. The forward was close enough to try and win back the ball. That challenge - in my eyes - made him active and therefore offside.

So he thought there would be a challenge as opposed to there was a challenge? Once your defender has taken the deliberate touch, that constitutes a new phase of play. If the attacker hasn't actually challenge before that, or during the touch then he is not active.

The biggest thing to remember: it is not an offence to be in an offside position.

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Re: One for HNA? refs - offside or not?

by BR0B0T » 12 Jun 2019 20:44

LWJ
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Qualified refs. My center-half got a look over his shoulder and was aware that the forward was close enough to warrant that first touch away from what he thought was going to be a challenge. The forward was close enough to try and win back the ball. That challenge - in my eyes - made him active and therefore offside.

So he thought there would be a challenge as opposed to there was a challenge? Once your defender has taken the deliberate touch, that constitutes a new phase of play. If the attacker hasn't actually challenge before that, or during the touch then he is not active.

The biggest thing to remember: it is not an offence to be in an offside position.


this explains it https://www.wba.co.uk/news/2015/april/p ... -on-astle/


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Re: One for HNA? refs - offside or not?

by stealthpapes » 13 Jun 2019 08:30

One of the West Mids trams is named Jeff Astle.

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Re: One for HNA? refs - offside or not?

by Platypuss » 13 Jun 2019 18:31

Something which sounds very similar just occurred for the 5th goal in the Brazil v Australia WWC game.

Ball pumped forward. Aus striker in offside position. 2 Brazil defenders in attendance, One further away from striker goes for header but knocks in past her own keeper from 12 yards.

Original decision - offside, no goal.
VAR (after on-pitch official has also reviewed): goal reinstated.

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