Long - time for a change?

[cmonurz]

Shows how far Liverpool have fallen if they are scouting a striker who has finally hit a run of goals, but that's not to denigrate Long's performances at all, I said earlier in the season that for all his industry, he wasn't scoring enough, and hats off to him, you can see him scoring one or two every game at the moment, he has fully repaid McDermott's faith in him.

[ZacNaloen]

Snowballs just an antidote to the people who form an opinion after 1 or 2 matches and stick with it until it becomes untenable. Makes this forum much less depressing as the dreary lot are also the most vocal with their opinions.

[Royal Rother]

As for Snowball, his attitude reminds me of a bloke who, after a few days of no rain, runs around telling everybody that its going to rain; after 6 months of drought, he is STILL running around saying the same thing "its gonna rain I tell ya!!"; eventually, the first drops fall, and the guy triumphantly exclaims "I TOLD YOU SO".

Way way off the mark.

When many many people were saying they were contributing nothing and were out of their depth, Snowball "proved" through stats that they (Kebe and Long) were actually contributing far more than they were being given credit for.

He had unwavering faith and belief because of what the stats showed him and was largely derided for that.

[ZacNaloen]

As for Snowball, his attitude reminds me of a bloke who, after a few days of no rain, runs around telling everybody that its going to rain; after 6 months of drought, he is STILL running around saying the same thing "its gonna rain I tell ya!!"; eventually, the first drops fall, and the guy triumphantly exclaims "I TOLD YOU SO".

Way way off the mark.

He'd have to be making that claim about every player at the club for that analogy to work.

As it is he's been quite specific.

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

Perhaps Snowy can do the same for some of uur midfielders, we could do with a better return goalwise from a good few of them now.

[Alan Partridge]

COnfidence is such an incredible thing really.

I saw the goals from saturday and the way Long takes that goal, you'd think it was a Monday morning training session, even allowing a little keepy uppy and then causal as you like flicked in past a former international goalkeeper.

I've never seen that sort of composure from him before this season. He did this last year, a pretty awful start (although he was definitely playing better in the games this season that i saw) and then got on a run of games whee he scored.

Fair play to him, never been my favourite player be the first to say that but you have to give credit where it's due and he's absolutely on fire at the minute.

If he could produce this sort of form over a season, then there will be some top clubs queing up to try and sign him.

[rhroyal]

However hindsight is a wonderful gift. I remember the Derby match under Rodgers in which he came off the bench, got sent off and we went on to lose. If Snowball really claims to have seen him coming good so quickly after that, I don't believe him.

I have been championing Long since my first post on these boards in January 2009. I started a thread defending Shane and received a lot of stick for it.

Surely you must have been open to the possibility that you were wrong around then?

[Snowball]

There is only one "good" reason to criticise a player and that's for him not trying.

Unless the player is trying as hard as they can but it still isn't coming off for them - that was the original stance of my opening post on this thread. This was the gist of my first post on the thread - a post that I am extremely pleased Long has proved me wrong on.

I would never criticise a PLAYER for not being good enough.

I'd criticise the manager, if anyone

[Snowball]

The point is, that those of us who watched games could see that up to the end of November, Long was missing so many decent chances it was an embarrassment. Since then, he has started to score goals from chances that earlier in the season, he was missing.

But did you ask WHY?

1. Players simply get runs of bad luck/bad form. Doyle's for Reading by far exceed Long's

2. He was playing in a 451 which didn't suit him and getting kicked and nutted to hell, working his butt off. Maybe in some cases he was simply knackered. Example the break down the left at Watford. It's hard to do your best when you've been fighting and being battered all game then you win a clattering and run sixty yards. Maybe now he's doing slightly less running for others (for one thing he's in the middle more, eg he was there for kebe's lob and followed it in)

3. The pressure of missing can get to any player (it did to Doyle and neither Church nor Hunt are exactly prolific this season)


But, stats again, he has always had a very good goals/minutes ratio. OVERALL he is a good finisher, always has been except for one barren run. Take out that run and his career average is better than a goal every 180 minutes

Every Reading fan should be pleased he is doing the business now, but it doesn't negate that he had been poor before.

I don't think he has had a poor game this season.

As for Snowball, his attitude reminds me of a bloke who, after a few days of no rain, runs around telling everybody that its going to rain; after 6 months of drought, he is STILL running around saying the same thing "its gonna rain I tell ya!!"; eventually, the first drops fall, and the guy triumphantly exclaims "I TOLD YOU SO".

Utter crap. If I picked "failing" players to champion then on a regular basis I'd be shown to be wrong.

I've championed players that the knees+jerks quorum call "failing". Well Kebe and Long are, right now, our most valuable players. Some failures, huh?

[Vision]

Of course it could be argued that those who claimed Long failing to convert chances and score from open play was costing us have been just as vindicated by the events of recent weeks as those who denied it.

[Wycombe Royal]

Of course it could be argued that those who claimed Long failing to convert chances and score from open play was costing us have been just as vindicated by the events of recent weeks as those who denied it.

I was one of those and I also highlighted that he wasn't taking up the right positions to get these chances. Before when he got into these one on one situations he just never looked like scoring, now he doesn't look like missing. I still don't think he is getting in the box enough, but whilst he is scoring I can live with that.......

[Snowball]

Of course it could be argued that those who claimed Long failing to convert chances and score from open play was costing us have been just as vindicated by the events of recent weeks as those who denied it.

Maybe, but it's still in part due to the coaching staff.

But if Long really "SHOULD HAVE" scored 8-10 goals in that barren spell, (and did) he'd be on 20-24 in all comps by now, and sold for 7 million.


A goal every other game OVERALL is brilliant.

Including Ireland Long has 14 in 28 (2) this season

[Vision]

Of course it could be argued that those who claimed Long failing to convert chances and score from open play was costing us have been just as vindicated by the events of recent weeks as those who denied it.

I was one of those and I also highlighted that he wasn't taking up the right positions to get these chances. Before when he got into these one on one situations he just never looked like scoring, now he doesn't look like missing. I still don't think he is getting in the box enough, but whilst he is scoring I can live with that.......

To be fair to Snowball (and Long) whats required as lone frontman in a 4-5-1 is a little different than in a 4-4-2 so its understandable if he wasn't getting in those positions as frequently but it still falls on the forward to be on the end of moves more often than he was doing. Unfortunately when he was on the end he wasn't converting and it was visible (Long alluded to it himself in a recent interview I read) that he was lacking confidence and getting frustrated with himself.

Of course he helped his own cause by winning and converting penalties as well as with his his overall contribution to the team and was also helped by the fact that we were picking up points and others were scoring. However to deny that not scoring from open play was irrelevant or not important simply isn't right in my opinion (and that of the player himself).

Noel Hunt will soon come under the same pressure if he doesn't score again soon. Long's goals, Hunt providing assists for some of them and the team's results will buy him time but the longer he goes without a goal the more it will get to him. Its the way strikers are wired.

[Vision]

Of course it could be argued that those who claimed Long failing to convert chances and score from open play was costing us have been just as vindicated by the events of recent weeks as those who denied it.

Maybe, but it's still in part due to the coaching staff.

But if Long really "SHOULD HAVE" scored 8-10 goals in that barren spell, (and did) he'd be on 20-24 in all comps by now, and sold for 7 million.


A goal every other game OVERALL is brilliant.

Including Ireland Long has 14 in 28 (2) this season

Forget Ireland, different set of players and circumstances. Where does 8-10 come from? I'm not suggesting he should convert every chance that comes his way. Once again you're taking the extreme point of view.

If he'd scored 2-3 it would have made a big difference. For us it was 1 goal from open play in something like 20 games. My point was (as it was for others) that this was affecting him when given chances and also the team in not converting draws into wins. Its arguable that recent weeks show their opinion to have been every bit as vindicated as yours.

[Man Friday]

There is only one "good" reason to criticise a player and that's for him not trying.

Agree with that - certainly publicly e.g. at matches. Bloke near me a gave the W sign emphatically to HRK at the Burney match when he overran in the 2nd half. Supporters like that can **** off to Cheatski. It may have been inept but he didn't mean to do it. If you're going to criticise your own players do it under your breath. How can it possibly help the player or the team?

[ZacNaloen]

I hate fans like that, all Hal did there was over egg his touch a stride too close to the keeper. Easy mistake to make, especially when still learning your game.

It's disappointing, but not worthy of derision.

[facaldaqui]

If he'd scored 2-3 it would have made a big difference. For us it was 1 goal from open play in something like 20 games. My point was (as it was for others) that this was affecting him when given chances and also the team in not converting draws into wins. Its arguable that recent weeks show their opinion to have been every bit as vindicated as yours.

Long's failure to score more than one open play goal over such a large number of matches may have cost us automatic promotion, however many he's scoring now. But his all-round play was good, so the problem was not so much Long as the misfiring of the strikers as a group. Inevitably, Long will hit a dry spell again--but this won't matter if other strikers are scoring. Brian has to get us an effective twin striking partnership fast--hopefully Williams or Manset might fit the bill. Otherwise we'll depend too much on Long, which is not a good idea.

[Snowball]

If he'd scored 2-3 it would have made a big difference. For us it was 1 goal from open play in something like 20 games. My point was (as it was for others) that this was affecting him when given chances and also the team in not converting draws into wins. Its arguable that recent weeks show their opinion to have been every bit as vindicated as yours.

Long's failure to score more than one open play goal over such a large number of matches may have cost us automatic promotion, however many he's scoring now. But his all-round play was good, so the problem was not so much Long as the misfiring of the strikers as a group. Inevitably, Long will hit a dry spell again--but this won't matter if other strikers are scoring. Brian has to get us an effective twin striking partnership fast--hopefully Williams or Manset might fit the bill. Otherwise we'll depend too much on Long, which is not a good idea.

Arguably, he only failed to score five goals in open play in that period
BECAUSE DEFENDERS FOULED HIM AND GAVE AWAY PENALTIES, all
of which were scored. So Long "got for us" 5 goals, forgetting his assists
and general all-round play, and getting opposition players booked and sent off.

If a striker approaches 1 in 2 for a season he is top top-notch and Shane is currently 12 in 26 which is brilliant.
With 21 games (at least) to go, he's still on target for 22 in the season.

For that reason I could not complain about a single miss. All strikers miss.

[Alan Partridge]

Absolutely true Snowball, all strikers miss.

The only thing, more unfortunate than an out right criticism a lot of Shane's worse misses came in a cluster of those drawn games. Where a bit more composure like he showed on Saturday, would have resulted in lets say 2-3 goals more because as you rightly say, all strikers miss and he's not going to score all of them even on the best day ever.

All boils down to confidence again, i'm sure if he had those chances right now, he'd put most of them away.

[Hoop Blah]

I've just caught up with the last few pages of this and AP, Vision, WR et al have summed my feeling on it pretty well.

Long's on fire at the moment and the improvement in his game is massive because of that confidence it's given him. It's about time and I'm pleased for him and the team because it's just what we've needed.

I remember an exchange between Dirk and myself about McDermott sticking to his guns with Long because, effectively, he'd had to put all his eggs in one basket with Long. Personally I think that was wrong and he needed to get Long out of the firing line earlier because not only was he not scoring enough goals but his touch, workrate and general game wasn't where it should've been. Not doing so made him then undropable because it would've been a massive dent to his confidence, one that he might've really struggled to come back from.

I still don't think Long has quite enough about him to be the consistent goalscorer I think a team at the level we want to be at needs to be successful. There aren't many of them around and if we can't get one we need to be a bit more canny about how we supplement them with goals elsewhere.

That's one thing we've not got, goals elsewhere, and that's gone against Long in a way too. Our midfield just doesn't contribute enough. McAnuff has never been a prolific scoring, and with both midfielders being quite defensive in the way we play 4-4-2 that means it comes down to Kebe to add the other goals (since we got rid of Sig). He's inconsistant too, so it just adds to the pressure on Long.