NO LONGER A RUMOUR - Karl Sheppard

[Ian Royal]

But how has cheap transfer activity on unknowns been a major factor in our ‘success’?

Current team:

Feds: Non-contract youth
Cummings: Managers previous academy
Gorks: Proven
Pearce: Academy
Harte: Proven
Jobi: Bigger money
Legs: Proven, bigger money
Karacan: Academy
ALF: As yet unsuccessful
Church: Academy

Where are these anonymous players we’ve “bought cheap” and turned into superstars? That's my point. It's just a myth.

Lets have a look at the 05/06 team instead:

Hahnemann: Cheap, relatively unproven in english game - From PL
Murts: Big money, fair enough
Ingi: Proven, but not expensive - proven being the crucial bit.
Sonko: Cheap, unproven - manager had worked with him before iirc
Shorey: Cheap, unproven - had been with us for years and took a while to come through benefit of the doubt for 1
Little: Free transfer - already very proven at our level, hardly comparable
Harps and Sids: Were both young, not proven at this level, and relatively cheap - both signed in the lower division iirc. Harper came from the Prem and Sidwell had proven himself at our level at the time. And Harper was not cheap.
Convey: Expensive, but not proven - so not comparable, established US international
Doyle: Cheap, unproven at this level - so that's 2
Kitson: Not expensive, unproven at this level - not particularly cheap either and didn't come straight into the side, but I'll give you the benefit for a third
Then we had the likes of Oster, Hunt, and Long all of whom were cheap and unproven at this level.

I'd say thats at least 80% of the core squad who were cheap, unproven, or both

Interesting that you leave out Lita who was defintely not a cheap gamble. I make that less than 30% of the core squad who were cheap gambles. Well done.

[Svlad Cjelli]

Ah soccerbase...the reliable bain of knowledge.

So come on - itemise where your £4mM comes from.

But use actual figures - not wild estimates or speculation, or what add-ons might amount to if the player concerned gets the team promoted or plays for England 10 times.

[Ian Royal]

One of our more promising cheap punts, but I can't say I'm very hopeful after seeing the youtube clip of him.

He is unlikely to have a big impact this season, and personally I find it doubtful he'll make it here at all on the limited info we've got. I certainly wish him all the best in his time here and hope he does come good. I won't be writing him off until there's some evidence he's a failed signing.

Strikes me as not the signing we need right now though. We've now seven strikers to develop and only one with a good scoring record at this level and he has injury problems. What we need is a couple who are ready to be in the team and scoring goals regularly from the start. I really like Le Fondre, Church and Manset, and I hope I'll like Sheppard, but liking doesn't mean they'll produce the goods we need.

Good god, great post.

Sorry, but writing a player off based on a 1 minute youtube clip is a 'great post'?

Can you not read you moron. I specifically say I haven't written him off.

FFS.

[Hoop Blah]

But how has cheap transfer activity on unknowns been a major factor in our ‘success’?

Current team:

Feds: Non-contract youth
Cummings: Managers previous academy
Gorks: Proven
Pearce: Academy
Harte: Proven
Jobi: Bigger money
Legs: Proven, bigger money
Karacan: Academy
ALF: As yet unsuccessful
Church: Academy

Where are these anonymous players we’ve “bought cheap” and turned into superstars? That's my point. It's just a myth.

Lets have a look at the 05/06 team instead:

Hahnemann: Cheap, relatively unproven in english game
Murts: Big money, fair enough
Ingi: Proven, but not expensive
Sonko: Cheap, unproven
Shorey: Cheap, unproven
Little: Free transfer
Harps and Sids: Were both young, not proven at this level, and relatively cheap
Convey: Expensive, but not proven
Doyle: Cheap, unproven at this level
Kitson: Not expensive, unproven at this level

Then we had the likes of Oster, Hunt, and Long all of whom were cheap and unproven at this level.

I'd say thats at least 80% of the core squad who were cheap, unproven, or both

I'd argue with a few of your assessments there.

Hahnemann might've not played many games but he'd been around long enough and was a known quantity in the game. He also spent a time on loan with us which made the signing much less of a gamble.
Shorey might've been a cheap import/gamble but it took him a few years to establish himself before being the key player in 05/06. If we can wait a couple of seasons for every signing then great.
Harper & Sidwell. Harpers fee was quite decent for the time we signed him. Sidwell was very much a proven young player when we signed him and both of them went straight into the team. They weren't 'project signings', and hopefully neither will Sheppard be.
Oster wasn't unproven, and neither was Makin or Gunnarsson who you missed out but played important parts that season.

It takes a balance. Sometimes that balance needs some experience and immediate quality added to it. I think this side needs that and hopefully we'll see that in the next couple of weeks.

[FiNeRaIn]

Ah soccerbase...the reliable bain of knowledge.

So come on - itemise where your £4mM comes from.

But use actual figures - not wild estimates or speculation, or what add-ons might amount to if the player concerned gets the team promoted or plays for England 10 times.

You can't be 100% sure of what we received, the same way you can't be 100% sure we paid 2 million for people mills. If we are taking whats widely reported in the press..

6.5 Doyle
6 long
5.5 mills
5.5 kitson
Hun 3.5
sonko 2
bikey 3 mill

want me to keep going?

[Svlad Cjelli]

You'd better, because your total is still a lot close to my figure than it is to yours.

[Bandini]

It took Shorey about 20 minutes into his first appearance to settle in the team and look like he belonged there.

[melonhead]

I also suspect that people weren't moaning about Doyle's signing because, at that time, our incoming transfer policy did not revolve entirely around cheap punts on those who might come good in the future.

there was a huge ammount of moaning and complaining about the ointless purchase of irish nobodies


that year it was almost entirely cheap and free players who'd been released by other clubsapart from lita who was still unproven at this level

Not quite entirely (that's over playing it).


,

almost entirely

There was Lita (as you say)

i already said

As well as that there were Oster and Makin who, although free, were proven campaigners at our level and perfect fits for an already developed squad.

who were free and released by other clubs........

[Victor Meldrew]

Good luck to this new lad,he'll need it .
Since signing Doyle and Long for very little I can't think of any other young cheaper buys who have yet come good.
Bennett and Mooney proved that even at £250,000 or so each the Irish production line is far from being guaranteed to work.
Brett Williams and Morrison,Mills the younger,Manset,Alf,Antonio between them have cost us around £1 million (plus wages of course)and yet none are guaranteed starters.

Our bigger proven player buys are the ones that tend to have worked for us in more recent times in Mills senior,Kebe,Jobi,Gorkss and Ledge who have formed the nucleus of our side plus 2 far-from-young but proven players and plus 3 or 4 who have come through our own system.
The obvious conclusion is that we should carry on with the same policy of bringing through our own and using any money that we do have to buy proven players-this approach of getting in loads of cheapies that require a lot of work for our coaching/fitness/lifestyle coaches as well as paying wages (albeit small but surely still significant)to a lot of players doesn't strike me as the best way for RFC.

It's now over 6 years since we got Doyle and Long as cheap buys-6 years without further success is a long time to suggest that the buy cheap,train up and sell big is working.

[FiNeRaIn]

You'd better, because your total is still a lot close to my figure than it is to yours.

Sig 6.5
shorey 3.5
marek 750k
cisse 500k

Sure theres a few more i've missed out too, Ill have a proper look after work.

[melonhead]

Most of the players we've spent considerable money on came good.

Kitson
cureton
butler
harper
sidwell
lita
murty
gunnarrson
forster

to mention but a few. They far outweight the quality end product of the cheap signings we've brought in. But please cling to the belief that anyone we've spent decent money on ( for the level we were playing at) were all failures.

is this the same kind of considerable money that we spent on manset etc?
i know we are at a higher level now, but.....


id guess people are kind of referring to people we payed over a million for when mentioning big or considerable money

[melonhead]

Can someone enlighten me as to whether I am supposed to be more or less excited about this one than the signing of Baseya?

"Low risk"
"Not going to cost us much in terms of wages"
"Give the lad a chance"

Just some of the soundbites from then that I am hearing again now. Brace of goals against Reading Uni and a bench-warming loan move to basement-dwellers Barnet later, I think it is fair to say that my cynicism from then might just turn out to be justified.

So what's different here?

no idea till they turn up and start practicing/playing

hence why slagging him off as probably shit is a pointless as saying hell go straight in and score 20 goas before may

[melonhead]

Reading has consistently used their limited resources in the most efficient way possible, and far more better than competing clubs have.

Our resources are FAR greater than many of our competitors, yet we spend significantly less. There is nothing limited in receiving over 40 million in transfers since relegation from the prem. Thats amongst the highest in the UK.

[melonhead]

Similarly look at other clubs that do spend big on proven players.

How are Mills and Beckford getting on at Leicester? How did all those SPL stars get on when they went to Boro

leicester and ipswich both spent loads and brought loads of big and "proven" players in the summer

how are they both doing?


and yet this is the model these people aspire to, rather than the one thats proven to be succesful year on year here.

[melonhead]

Ah soccerbase...the reliable bain of knowledge.

Surely you can use your basic maths skills to look over the players we've sold since relegation and see it far exceeds 25 million.

what difference does it make how much we sold if the money is eatenup by the wage bill/loss of parachutes/smaller revenues?

[Hoop Blah]

It took Shorey about 20 minutes into his first appearance to settle in the team and look like he belonged there.

Indeed. It took him another 2 or 3 seasons to be one of the best fullbacks outside the Premier League and to be a key player in a promotion winning team.

[melonhead]

But how has cheap transfer activity on unknowns been a major factor in our ‘success’?

Current team:

Feds: Non-contract youth
Cummings: Managers previous academy
Gorks: Proven
Pearce: Academy
Harte: Proven
Jobi: Bigger money
Legs: Proven, bigger money
Karacan: Academy
ALF: As yet unsuccessful
Church: Academy

Where are these anonymous players we’ve “bought cheap” and turned into superstars? That's my point. It's just a myth.

Lets have a look at the 05/06 team instead:

Hahnemann: Cheap, relatively unproven in english game - From PL
Murts: Big money, fair enough
Ingi: Proven, but not expensive - proven being the crucial bit.
Sonko: Cheap, unproven - manager had worked with him before iirc
Shorey: Cheap, unproven - had been with us for years and took a while to come through benefit of the doubt for 1
Little: Free transfer - already very proven at our level, hardly comparable
Harps and Sids: Were both young, not proven at this level, and relatively cheap - both signed in the lower division iirc. Harper came from the Prem and Sidwell had proven himself at our level at the time. And Harper was not cheap.
Convey: Expensive, but not proven - so not comparable, established US international
Doyle: Cheap, unproven at this level - so that's 2
Kitson: Not expensive, unproven at this level - not particularly cheap either and didn't come straight into the side, but I'll give you the benefit for a third
Then we had the likes of Oster, Hunt, and Long all of whom were cheap and unproven at this level.

I'd say thats at least 80% of the core squad who were cheap, unproven, or both

Interesting that you leave out Lita who was defintely not a cheap gamble. I make that less than 30% of the core squad who were cheap gambles. Well done.

30% is a significant factor


if i got a 30 percent hit in one of my screening assays id call that significant for sure

[Libertine]

Similarly look at other clubs that do spend big on proven players.

How are Mills and Beckford getting on at Leicester? How did all those SPL stars get on when they went to Boro

leicester and ipswich both spent loads and brought loads of big and "proven" players in the summer

how are they both doing?


and yet this is the model these people aspire to, rather than the one thats proven to be succesful year on year here.

Who said anything about becoming big spenders? Just a modest investment in an impact player (hopefully up front or an attacking midfielder) at a critical junction of a potentially promising season is all most of us would like to see.

[melonhead]

Similarly look at other clubs that do spend big on proven players.

How are Mills and Beckford getting on at Leicester? How did all those SPL stars get on when they went to Boro

leicester and ipswich both spent loads and brought loads of big and "proven" players in the summer

how are they both doing?


and yet this is the model these people aspire to, rather than the one thats proven to be succesful year on year here.

Who said anything about becoming big spenders? Just a modest investment in an impact player (hopefully up front or an attacking midfielder) at a critical junction of a potentially promising season is all most of us would like to see.

id say all of us would like to see it
most of us can see why it often doesnt happen
and a small but loud minority carry on constantly moaning

[Hoop Blah]

Reading has consistently used their limited resources in the most efficient way possible, and far more better than competing clubs have.

Our resources are FAR greater than many of our competitors, yet we spend significantly less. There is nothing limited in receiving over 40 million in transfers since relegation from the prem. Thats amongst the highest in the UK.

Ah, that same old figure you keep using. Keep reciting it again and again - it still won't be the correct figure.

According to Soccerbase, Reading's transfers out have been :

2008/09 £5.5M
2009/10 £7.1M
2010/11 £6.0M
2011/12 £6.5M
TOTAL £25.1M

And this is all part of a progression - without selling Kitson & Doyle we'd never have been able to develop Long, and ditto with Sonko to Matt Mills.

But do keep reciting the £40M mantra if it makes you happy.

As I said the other day, according to Soccerbase we didn't receive or pay a [known] fee for any of the following Gunnarsson, Morrison, Harte, Legiertwood, Henry, Bikey, McAnuff, Hunt, S or Cisse. That's hardly a source you can hold up and giving anywhere near an accurate reflection of the ins or outs values.