Alf

[Snowball]

TBF to Church, both ALF's goals yesterday were typical Church goals,
horrible tap-ins from a striker who manages to be in the right place

True. If Church has scored those this board would be full of halfwits complaining that he just can't score real goals. Strange how it can be that Alf (quite rightly) gets credit for being in the right place to score 2 close range goals but if Church did it then he would be slated for always getting simple tap ins.

My point exactly

(and I'm a fan of Alfie)

[Snowball]

Hunt and Roberts is very workman like and that suits us currently, but Alf should

Sorry but Church is that bad. What does he give us? At least Le Fondre is a poacher. At least Afobe is fast, strong, tall and reads the game well, and clearly very highly rated by Arsenal. Simon church has none of those qualities and for me has to take a back seat if the other two are fit, and then look at things in the summer.

And yet prior to yesterday's game Church was equal on goals
but had played less minutes

[West Stand Man]

It might be something to do with ALF being a well known poacher with a fantastic lower level scoring record. And both his goals were clearly intended. Whereas several of the goals Church has scored from that distance essentially just hit him and went in, without any direction from him. And he doesn't have a great scoring record at any level.

What utter tripe. You need to take the anti Church STGs off.

[Gordons Cumming]

Why do Snowball's replies almost always include statistics?

[Upper West Ginger]

Why do Snowball's replies almost always include statistics?

"...almost always..." is way too imprecise.
What we need is for somebody to give us a statistical breakdown of Snowball's posts to see what the precise ratio of posts do / do not include statistics. There must be somebody on here who could do that for us.

Oh

[cmonurz]

As Snowball's main stat thread shows, and contrary to the stance he seems to be taking on here, with 5 assists, ALF's all round attacking contribution has been better. As someone also pointed out on another thread, ALF is (rightly) the one McDermott turns to when we are chasing the game.

I'd be interested in the timing of Alf's goals compared to Church's, or how many points their goals have won us (i.e. how many points do we lose if we take their goals out). Genuinely no idea but I wouldn't be surprised if ALF's goals have been more critical to us this season.

Personally I'd start him every week - Roberts is a partner made for Le Fondre.

[Ian Royal]

It might be something to do with ALF being a well known poacher with a fantastic lower level scoring record. And both his goals were clearly intended. Whereas several of the goals Church has scored from that distance essentially just hit him and went in, without any direction from him. And he doesn't have a great scoring record at any level.

What utter tripe. You need to take the anti Church STGs off.

I like Church actually. Sorry if you don't like the fact over the last couple of years several of Church's "tap ins" have been from the ball hitting him and going in without him knowing much about it. It doesn't mean it didn't happen though.

[Ian Royal]

As Snowball's main stat thread shows, and contrary to the stance he seems to be taking on here, with 5 assists, ALF's all round attacking contribution has been better. As someone also pointed out on another thread, ALF is (rightly) the one McDermott turns to when we are chasing the game.

I'd be interested in the timing of Alf's goals compared to Church's, or how many points their goals have won us (i.e. how many points do we lose if we take their goals out). Genuinely no idea but I wouldn't be surprised if ALF's goals have been more critical to us this season.

Personally I'd start him every week - Roberts is a partner made for Le Fondre.

ALF = 8 points
Bristol City - equalised before we went on to take the lead - 1
Derby County - scored both goals to earn us a draw - 1
Watford - scored the winner - 2
Millwall - scored the winner - 2
Leeds - scored the winner - 2
His goal against P'boro meant we took the lead, before we extended the lead and they then got a late consolation. So I'm not counting anything for that.

Church = 3 points
Coventry - scored the equaliser - 1
Leeds - scored the winner - 2

It's not hard to workout with a quick look at the results page of HNA?

[Snowball]

Why do Snowball's replies almost always include statistics?

Because a lot of knee-jerking people make unjustified
assertions which are often in direct contravention of
obvious facts.

eg (Ian Royal) And he (Church) doesn't have a great scoring record at any level.

SIMPLY WRONG


I DON'T have a great deal of time for Churchy (relative to others)
but BECAUSE he doesn't score a lot of spectacular goals
(but a goal is a goal is a goal is a goal) he gets unfair stick.

He had a poor season last year but his goals per minute, note GOALS, not assists is very very decent

[Snowball]

As Snowball's main stat thread shows, and contrary to the stance he seems to be taking on here, with 5 assists, ALF's all round attacking contribution has been better. As someone also pointed out on another thread, ALF is (rightly) the one McDermott turns to when we are chasing the game.

I'd be interested in the timing of Alf's goals compared to Church's, or how many points their goals have won us (i.e. how many points do we lose if we take their goals out). Genuinely no idea but I wouldn't be surprised if ALF's goals have been more critical to us this season.

Personally I'd start him every week - Roberts is a partner made for Le Fondre.

ALF = 8 points
Bristol City - equalised before we went on to take the lead - 1
Derby County - scored both goals to earn us a draw - 1
Watford - scored the winner - 2
Millwall - scored the winner - 2
Leeds - scored the winner - 2
His goal against P'boro meant we took the lead, before we extended the lead and they then got a late consolation. So I'm not counting anything for that.

Church = 3 points
Coventry - scored the equaliser - 1
Leeds - scored the winner - 2

It's not hard to workout with a quick look at the results page of HNA?

Again unfair and misleading. Most of Church's minutes have been starting where the "standard"
was RFC playing it tight and wearing down the opposition.. Church seemed to be the only player
who could score in the first half. He does quite well as a starter (bold goal-times are as a sub)
and 57% of his goals were as a starter, 43% as a sub. 43% of his goals are in the first half when
goals are much harder to come by according to many.

02-10-26-52-82-86-90

ALF, in contrast, scores late goals and goals as a a sub. His goals:

all second half, 8/9 in the last 25 minutes = 57-65-74-76-77-77-83-84-89

It's pretty clear the players are being used in different ways.

In 16 starts ALF has failed 16 times to score a first-half-goal

Church is obviously considered the runner/wear them down player with goals a bonus
and Alf is seen as the player to come on against tired defences

43% First Half Goals, 57% Goals as a starter. 057% Second Half Goals, 43% Goals as a Sub CHURCH
00% First Half Goals, 45% Goals as a starter. 100% Second Half Goals, 55% Goals as a Sub ALF

[Ian Royal]

Why do Snowball's replies almost always include statistics?

Because a lot of knee-jerking people make unjustified
assertions which are often in direct contravention of
obvious facts.

eg (Ian Royal) And he (Church) doesn't have a great scoring record at any level.

SIMPLY WRONG


I DON'T have a great deal of time for Churchy (relative to others)
but BECAUSE he doesn't score a lot of spectacular goals
(but a goal is a goal is a goal is a goal) he gets unfair stick.

He had a poor season last year but his goals per minute, note GOALS, not assists is very very decent

Scoring records aren't made from goals a minute, they're made from goals a season. He's had one half decent season of about 12. According to you some diabolical pub player could come on in the last 5 minutes of a match and get set up infront of an open goal and he'd have better figures than Messi and have phenominal scoring record. Get a grip on reality and take your nose out of the numbers.

It's not unfair, it's not misleading. It's is exactly the correct answer to the question that was asked. And they have very similar appearance stats this season. Everything else you want to say is irrelevant to the question asked.

[Snowball]

It might be something to do with ALF being a well known poacher with a fantastic lower level scoring record. And both his goals were clearly intended. Whereas several of the goals Church has scored from that distance essentially just hit him and went in, without any direction from him. And he doesn't have a great scoring record at any level.

He's had one half decent season of about 12

22 (14) 1,856 Minutes 10 Goals 186 Minutes per Goal Church That "half-decent season"

16 (12) 1,679 Minutes 09 Goals 187 Minutes per Goal Le Fondre after Friday's Game

16 (11) 1,657 Minutes 07 Goals 237 Minutes per Goal Le Fondre before Friday's Game



Whatever you do, don't let the facts get in the way of your agenda.

[RobRoyal]

Snowbal, how do you feel we should adjust our interpretation of those stats knowing that one of those Church goals was a mishit cross (Barnsley away) and more than one other appeared to go off him without his intent?

[Snowball]

Snowbal, how do you feel we should adjust our interpretation of those stats knowing that one of those Church goals was a mishit cross (Barnsley away) and more than one other appeared to go off him without his intent?

Well, shall we begin with the fact that Church didn't score at Barnsley?

Should we remove Kebe's fluked goal recently (after Roberts' back-heel?)

Would we strike off Harte's goal if his cross this Friday had dropped in?

We can't. It would be far too subjective and open to interpretation.

Many of Church's goals have been "ugly" or rebounds or tap-ins, but the original point
was not that he deserved those goals or didn't but the way too many report them.

If Church "merely" gets a tap-in or bundles the ball over the line it's almost a negative
but when ALF does exactly the same it's brilliant goal-poaching.

Let me be clear 9for the umpteenth time) that I much prefer ALF to Church.

I am merely making the point that

(a) People unfairly malign Church.

(b) Give more credit to ALF for similar goals

(c) Fail to allow for the fact that for most of the season Church has been used as an opening striker, on the pitch to grind out results and has played a large proportion of his minutes from the start of games when RFC have been playing it tight and scoring few goal.

(d) People ignore Church's goal-per-minute ratio which is very decent.

Compare it to Hunt 7 Goals in 1537 for Church (220 mins/goal per goal) versus Hunt's 8 in 2610 = 326 mins/goal*










* Yes Hunt does other stuff, as does ALF, which is why I prefer them
but in terms of GOALS (which was the discussion) Church is fine

[cmonurz]

Snowball, with respect, you are wrestling this thread towards a discussion simply about minutes per goals scored of each player, when various posters have made different points about how critical those goals have been to our points gained, or when the goals have been scored, or how the players are being used by McDermott.

[Mr Cinema]

Snowball, with respect, you are wrestling this thread towards a discussion simply about minutes per goals scored of each player, when various posters have made different points about how critical those goals have been to our points gained, or when the goals have been scored, or how the players are being used by McDermott.

Thing is though, flip that on it's head and look at it from the POV of the situation when Church is brought on rather than ALF.

If ALF is generally brought on when we're level or behind and need a goal to win a game then it's quite likely any goals he scores are going to be point winning or point saving ones isn't it.

If Church is brought on when we're already ahead and need to defend a lead then by scoring in those circumstances he's done his job just as much as ALF has. Just because they come in a game where we're ahead doesn't mean he's done his job any less than ALF has.

I agree with Snowball there is too much stick given to Church certainly as a sub when most of the time he comes on and helps in the situation we're in every bit as much as ALF does when he comes on in a different situation. ALF is better in my opinion but Church does have his worth which people seem reluctant to see or admit to.

It does however indicate the massive flaws and irrelevancies in Snowball simply putting up goals per mins anyway let alone extrapolating it to a 90 minute/46 game season which very few strikers ever play anyway.

[sandman]

Snowbal, how do you feel we should adjust our interpretation of those stats knowing that one of those Church goals was a mishit cross (Barnsley away) and more than one other appeared to go off him without his intent?

Surely any striker worth their salt follows the ball around the keeper in case of a rebound.

[Snowball]

Snowball, with respect, you are wrestling this thread towards a discussion simply about minutes per goals scored of each player, when various posters have made different points about how critical those goals have been to our points gained, or when the goals have been scored, or how the players are being used by McDermott.

,

Not trying to do that cmon. I'm merely making the point that Church is unfairly maligned.

It's clear that Alf gets a lot more of his goals when brought on to chase the game (8/9 goals in the last 30 mins)

its well-known that Church was mostly used as the battering ram for the first hour
or is now brought on when we are ahead to chase and harry and close down games

They are different and IMO equally important.

I still believe Church has a 20-goal Championship season in him

[sandman]

I haven't seen LeFondre miss any sitters ,which church does every game.
He's also our top scorer !

Alf cost us at Blackpool where he missed the target with a relatively easy header whilst we were in the ascendency and he blazed over the bar from a couple of yards out at Palace which cost us 3 points. Not forgetting his foul on the keeper in the same game for the disallowed goal.

[Mr Angry]

And another thread gets Snowballed to death.

RIP