You'll Never Walk Alone will be played before K.O today....

[Alexander Litvinenko]

I'm being a bit of a twat here but i'm guessing more than 96 people die a day from avoidable accidents

2008 accidental death figures were 12,231, which is just over 33 a day, as it happens.

But that's completely irrelevant to the argument, of course.

[creative_username_1]

I'm being a bit of a twat here but i'm guessing more than 96 people die a day from avoidable accidents

2008 accidental death figures were 12,231, which is just over 33 a day, as it happens.

But that's completely irrelevant to the argument, of course.

Worldwide?

Yep totally irrelevant, just thinking of the abstract. Randomness of events and how rare
events have a massive consequence (9/11, the internet, stock market crashes etc).

If someone had ordered (at huge expense) all seater stadiums, bullet-proof locked doors on planes, stricter
financial controls etc before any of the rare events occurred they would be considered a massive idiot rather
than someone who saved countless lives.

fwiw i have no problem with a song being played at a football ground

[Alexander Litvinenko]

I'm being a bit of a twat here but i'm guessing more than 96 people die a day from avoidable accidents

2008 accidental death figures were 12,231, which is just over 33 a day, as it happens.

But that's completely irrelevant to the argument, of course.

Worldwide?

Yep totally irrelevant, just thinking of the abstract. Randomness of events and how rare
events have a massive consequence (9/11, the internet, stock market crashes etc).

If someone had ordered (at huge expense) all seater stadiums, bullet-proof locked doors on planes, stricter
financial controls etc before any of the rare events occurred they would be considered a massive idiot rather
than someone who saved countless lives.

fwiw i have no problem with a song being played at a football ground

Sorry, should have said - those are UK statistics.

[Jackson Corner]

Just a thought, but if we were still in the Chamionship playing Barnsley on a Saturday would they have still had the tribute?

[Dave the rave]

Just a thought, but if we were still in the Chamionship playing Barnsley on a Saturday would they have still had the tribute?

Probably not. But we aren't and we weren't.
Maybe the chairman has a certain affinity with someone from Liverpool that made him think his football family could show allegiance with another football family?

[Barry the bird boggler]

I'm being a bit of a twat here but i'm guessing more than 96 people die a day from avoidable accidents

2008 accidental death figures were 12,231, which is just over 33 a day, as it happens.

But that's completely irrelevant to the argument, of course.

The deaths at Hillsborough aren't likely to be seen as accidental after the coroner's court re-opens the issue in the light of the new evidence.

[creative_username_1]

How will they be 'quantified' if not accidental. I don't know the legal terms.

[Ian Royal]

How will they be 'quantified' if not accidental. I don't know the legal terms.

Probably a narrative verdict where a description of what happened and why is given. Otherwise the options are:

Natural causes - No.
Accidental / Misadventure - Not in light of the new evidence IMO.
Suicide - No.
Unlawful killing - maybe, but I don't think it fits.
lawful killing - wouldn't have thought so.
industrial disease - No
Open verdict (not enough evidence) - No.

http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/burials-and-coroners/guide-charter-coroner.pdf

[philM]

How will they be 'quantified' if not accidental. I don't know the legal terms.

The relatives appear to be hoping for verdicts of unlawful killing (due to gross negligence), though such verdicts would not in themselves lead to prosecutions.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

My money is on Unlawful killing - in fact I can't see any other outcome.

Which would have resulted in a charge of corporate manslaughter against SYP - not sure if that's still possible after this time.

[Ian Royal]

My money is on Unlawful killing - in fact I can't see any other outcome.

Which would have resulted in a charge of corporate manslaughter against SYP - not sure if that's still possible after this time.

I've been told someone tried to bring a private prosecution about relatively recently on the basis that the inquiry cut off at 3.15 and they had evidence their relation was still alive at 3.45. I was told teh High Court threw it out as it was too long ago to prosecute.

Couldn't say how accurate that is.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

One other thing that I think will come out in the next few weeks, and which is not generally realised, is what role West Midlands Police had in this.

They were the force investigating SYP at the time of Taylor and also assisting the coroner at the time of the inquests - a Detective Superintendent Stanley Beechey performed this role, although what he actually did was never properly explained.

This is the same Detective Superintendent Stanley Beeche ywho had been head of the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad, disbanded in Jan 1989 after numerous cases were thrown out by the courts as it was obvious evidence had been fabricated, confessions obtained under duress and forensic evidence tampered with etc. The local MP at the time said :

No solicitor in Birmingham would say anything other than that the [West Midlands Police] serious crime squad is fundamentally dishonest. The men in the squad decide who are guilty and frame them.

Someone with his record being involved with the inquest and the evidence raises massive questions.

[Royal Biscuitman]

How will they be 'quantified' if not accidental. I don't know the legal terms.

Avoidable.

Many deaths could have been avoided if the police had done their job, Mistakes do happen but the fact they they attempted to cover up their failings and divert blame onto fans by doctoring evidence is criminal.

To also stand there and allow people to die by denying them medical care is possibly manslaughter, although I suspect I may be wrong as I've not seen that word mentioned.

[Ian Royal]

How will they be 'quantified' if not accidental. I don't know the legal terms.

Avoidable.

Many deaths could have been avoided if the police had done their job, Mistakes do happen but the fact they they attempted to cover up their failings and divert blame onto fans by doctoring evidence is criminal.

To also stand there and allow people to die by denying them medical care is possibly manslaughter, although I suspect I may be wrong as I've not seen that word mentioned.

I believe that if it had happened this year, there would be some corporate manslaughter charges being prepared, for a failure to meet the required safety standards and competence.

[Stuboo]

How will they be 'quantified' if not accidental. I don't know the legal terms.

Avoidable.

Many deaths could have been avoided if the police had done their job, Mistakes do happen but the fact they they attempted to cover up their failings and divert blame onto fans by doctoring evidence is criminal.

To also stand there and allow people to die by denying them medical care is possibly manslaughter, although I suspect I may be wrong as I've not seen that word mentioned.

I believe that if it had happened this year, there would be some corporate manslaughter charges being prepared, for a failure to meet the required safety standards and competence.

Agreed. The police would cop it big time for their poor planning and execution on the day and SUFC would get done for having an unsafe ground (too few turnstiles, too big a gradient in the steps leading to the stand, gates from the fences at the front which were too small, etc).

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Agreed. The police would cop it big time for their poor planning and execution on the day and SUFC would get done for having an unsafe ground (too few turnstiles, too big a gradient in the steps leading to the stand, gates from the fences at the front which were too small, etc).

Very harsh dragging United into it.

But seriously, Hillsborough didn't have a valid safety certificate so the blame there lies with the club and Sheffield City Council - and quite possibly The FA for sending a game to a ground without a certificate.

[biscuitman]

quite possibly

Ah Yes!! Especially near diasters in 1981, 86 and 87 at the same ground.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Damning revelations today about exactly how much Sheffied Weds appear to be culpable and how charges of corporate manslaughter are being considered against them : http://tinyurl.com/9dtu767

As just one example of their contempt for supporter safety :

...
There was a serious crush in 1981 on the Leppings Lane terrace in which 38 people were injured. The police moved supporters out, they told the club's then chairman, Bert McGee, to avoid "a real chance of fatalities". Shockingly, the panel found in the minutes of a post-match meeting, McGee replied: "Bollocks – no one would have been killed.
...

[HoneyRoastHoax]

I watched the C5 documentary on the HB disaster last night. I agree there was awful wrong doing by the Emergency services, a massive cover up and the club had unsuitable precautions.

I also agree that the death verdicts should be changed from accidental death HOWEVER It will cost millions to take this back through the courts. This will not bring justice for the 96. It will take money away from thousands of needy worthywhile causes where justice is required for a lot more people than 96.

Why can't someone like Stevie G pay for it himself? I'd be unhappy with my tax money being spent on something which is a lost cause. What struck me is that there were a number of relatives who always thought their relative was killed pretty much instantly, this new information disproves that and has caused them more grief. Do we really want to keep prodding that, oh would you prefer to keep it as it is.

Stadia have learnt from thier mistakes so nothing more can be acheived from this.

[cmonurz]

Very easy to say that not having been directly affected by the disaster.