Jason Roberts...Do you sometimes find him annoying?!

[DelBoyRodders]

So why didn't he move up the managerial ladder?

He died!

[sandman]

Ok, that's the smart arse answer now give a real one.

He'd been in management for almost two decades before he died, so illness aside, why wasn't he given a chance any higher than the lower League's in that time?

[DelBoyRodders]

Ok, that's the smart arse answer now give a real one.

He'd been in management for almost two decades before he died, so illness aside, why wasn't he given a chance any higher than the lower League's in that time?

Premier League clubs just go for an expensive big-name quick-fix foreign manager to appease their supporters - same as they do with players.
You could also ask the question why more Premier League clubs don't hire an ENGLISH manager?
You could argue the Premier League has some prejudice -including towards English - but lower leagues tend to give opportunites to everyone.
But then again maybe English managers are simply crap!
Either way the Rooney Rule is bollox, you can't just offer an interview or job to someone because they are black. It would help if they at least applied for the job to start with.

[LoyalRoyal22]

lets just start a kick them out campaign

[SCIAG]

If the footballing world is institutionally racist against black managers, then I don't think having to interview them will make a jolt of difference. If boards don't want to hire black people, they won't hire them.

What are the current stats for black managers? 6 out of 97 (given Barnet have two managers)?

[Hoop Blah]

Ok, that's the smart arse answer now give a real one.

He'd been in management for almost two decades before he died, so illness aside, why wasn't he given a chance any higher than the lower League's in that time?

Is the real answer that very few managers actually move up the ladder unless they take their clubs with them. Those that operate in the lower leagues generally stay there and visa versa in the top leagues.

Keith Alexander wasn't a flawless manager and had failures on his CV as well so although he did progress up the leagues to a level, he didn't have enough success or longevity to make bigger clubs come knocking.

[Hoop Blah]

thats the situation now, and due topossible institutional racism- proven by the stats on how many black applicants there are, how many get interviews, and how many get jobs-means it isnt working

What stats? I think it's a shame there aren't more black managers (and I made the point on the other thread that, contrary to popular belief, those black managers who've been given a chance have done reasonably well) but I've not seen any stats on the above.

There aren't any. An industry that is institutionally racist is hardly likely to publish figures that demonstrate that.

But brendy said there are stats to prove it...

I'm not convinced there's such a big issue, although there may well be the perception of it amongst those potential managers that apparently aren't bothering to get their badges and apply for jobs etc.

[sandman]

Ok, that's the smart arse answer now give a real one.

He'd been in management for almost two decades before he died, so illness aside, why wasn't he given a chance any higher than the lower League's in that time?

Premier League clubs just go for an expensive big-name quick-fix foreign manager to appease their supporters - same as they do with players.
You could also ask the question why more Premier League clubs don't hire an ENGLISH manager?
You could argue the Premier League has some prejudice -including towards English - but lower leagues tend to give opportunites to everyone.
But then again maybe English managers are simply crap!
Either way the Rooney Rule is bollox, you can't just offer an interview or job to someone because think they are black. It would help if they at least applied for the job to start with.

So, in your opinion, there is at least one form of discrimination in English football so what makes you that there can't be other forms of discrimination. In your words, "Keith Alexander was a great black football manager". Is a great black manager different to being a great manager in your opinion?

If people from an ethnic minority don't apply then obviously they won't be offered a job but why would they not apply? What could possibly make someone from a minority think they won't get a job that they're qualified for? If they do apply and they aren't given an interview how does the interviewer know that they can't offer something different to the other candidates?

[sandman]

Ok, that's the smart arse answer now give a real one.

He'd been in management for almost two decades before he died, so illness aside, why wasn't he given a chance any higher than the lower League's in that time?

Is the real answer that very few managers actually move up the ladder unless they take their clubs with them. Those that operate in the lower leagues generally stay there and visa versa in the top leagues.

Keith Alexander wasn't a flawless manager and had failures on his CV as well so although he did progress up the leagues to a level, he didn't have enough success or longevity to make bigger clubs come knocking.

Thanks to everyone's favourite fence sitter for giving him an answer to point to without having to come up with a cogent argument himself.

[melonhead]

Britain is probably the most non-racist country in Europe or the world
.

guessing you dont get out much and talk to people

[melonhead]

Where are they going to find all these black people to interview for managers jobs when hardly any of them have been applying for the jobs anyway?
Also, who are all these potential great black managers that can't get a job? That's a question that Roberts and Holt have declined to answer so far.

not true.\

stats are out there if youi care to look, as well as anecdotal evidence\and we arent just talking at prem level, its at all levels

you havent heard of em, cos they werent given an interview/job and the opportunity to make it onto your radar

[sandman]

Britain is probably the most non-racist country in Europe or the world and we still get the likes of Roberts and Ferdinand kicking up a shit storm about it.

Is it? There are still places in this country where there are racial divisions. Just because you don't see or hear it in nice, middle class Berkshire or regularly on a match day doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

People tweeting Roberts calling him a "monkey" and telling him to "get back to your cage", or calling him a "nob" without giving a valid reason why and saying he's merely "attention seeking" would also suggest that their are still more than a few people in this country who have a lack of education when it comes to such matters. You only have to look at the clubs some of these people support like Millwall and Leeds, clubs which are situated in areas of the country where racial divides exist, to see that. As we've seen on here there are people who just dismiss it as "name calling" without an idea of the history of such words/actions and why people of a different skin colour might find them offensive.

[melonhead]

That all sounds like a pretty bland set of wishes that doesn't really challenge the status quo .

except that
the recent showing from the FA over racism has been neither consistet, fair, transnparent, or in line with all other workplaces in the U.K......

In some peoples opinion you mean?

Personally I think the criticisms of the process taking too long and being 'unfair' or inconsistent are unfounded.

Other work places/industries all sack ALL workers found guilty of racial abuse do they? Furthermore, the FA can't sack a clubs player so having a pop at the FA for the clubs actions is pointless really.

think its pretty clear myself.

there is no agreed clear, transparent process, or framework of fines/punishments
theyre done in peace meal fashion, and whether you think there were reasons for terrys case taking a year to sort, and the difference between him and suarez' punishment, the lack of a clear process means its open to criticism of this kind.
the possible sacking for gross misconduct bit simply gives clubs the possibility of sacking, whereas before that would result in years of litigation.
and yes. certainly as far as im aware. if someone in my industry abused someone racially, they would be near instantly sacked.

just putting my points though, like you already said, its clear we will have to agree to disagree

[melonhead]

thats the situation now, and due topossible institutional racism- proven by the stats on how many black applicants there are, how many get interviews, and how many get jobs-means it isnt working

What stats? I think it's a shame there aren't more black managers (and I made the point on the other thread that, contrary to popular belief, those black managers who've been given a chance have done reasonably well) but I've not seen any stats on the above.

heard clarke carlisle on t radio discussing them earlier-so they are there

[melonhead]

If the footballing world is institutionally racist against black managers, then I don't think having to interview them will make a jolt of difference. If boards don't want to hire black people, they won't hire them.

What are the current stats for black managers? 6 out of 97 (given Barnet have two managers)?

it has worked in the states though

it gives them the chance, and has resulted in an increase

[melonhead]

Britain is probably the most non-racist country in Europe or the world and we still get the likes of Roberts and Ferdinand kicking up a shit storm about it.

Is it? There are still places in this country where there are racial divisions. Just because you don't see or hear it in nice, middle class Berkshire or regularly on a match day doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

.

id contend that the racism is still out there, here in leafy berkshire

its just racism of a different kind, that only gets talked abouit among like minded friends.
you only have to talk to different groups of reading fans, and mates for any length of time to realise this
and in many ways this is a racism that is harder to deal with, and has just as many consequences as the nazi saluting skinhead violent racistm of the past, or up north

[Hoop Blah]

thats the situation now, and due topossible institutional racism- proven by the stats on how many black applicants there are, how many get interviews, and how many get jobs-means it isnt working

What stats? I think it's a shame there aren't more black managers (and I made the point on the other thread that, contrary to popular belief, those black managers who've been given a chance have done reasonably well) but I've not seen any stats on the above.

heard clarke carlisle on t radio discussing them earlier-so they are there

But what stats though? I've not seen compelling stats that show anything really. I'd agree there is a bit of an anomaly with the number of black player and those that go on to management but I'm not sure that proves anything.

I think there's probably some interesting information around the progression through the qualification process too. I don't think anything is really 'proving' anything though.

[The Rouge]

What are the current stats for black managers? 6 out of 97 (given Barnet have two managers)?

Wouldn't they need to have 5?

[melonhead]

But what stats though? I've not seen compelling stats that show anything really. I'd agree there is a bit of an anomaly with the number of black player and those that go on to management but I'm not sure that proves anything.

I think there's probably some interesting information around the progression through the qualification process too. I don't think anything is really 'proving' anything though.

like i said feel free to disagree- i certainly cant be arsed to go rooting around to prove you wrong
clarke carlisle is in a much better position to have that kind of info, and seemed to think it pretty clear cut, and thats enough for me in an internet discussion.

the arguments against do sound very much like the same ones trotted out when trying to justify discrimination in other areas in the past though

[Hoop Blah]

Sometimes it's a bit naive to take people's evidence at face value without some self evaluation of it to dig under the agenda it may be being used to support.

Stats can be made to 'prove' almost anything if you pick the right ones.