1st reason why McDermott should go - No Guthrie

[Snowball]

Had we played a tactical game to suit Guthrie, the stats may have been different. Instead we have only ever had one way to play and, if the Manager brings in someone who is never going to shine in that system - that is a problem with the Manager, not the player!

If Guthrie had come on in the second half of the Arsenal game, with tactics suited to his style of play, we would not have lost (possibly).

1 Guthrie isn't a ball-RETAINER, he's a passer. One player like him hardly matters

2 Arsenal switched to 4 up front and sprayed balls wide or long by-passing the mid-field

How would Guthrie have stopped that?

[cmonurz]

1 Guthrie isn't a ball-RETAINER, he's a passer. One player like him hardly matters

I disagree entirely, and for me the stats don't matter. We were one-dimensional against Norwich, we need someone in the team who can pass the ball through the midfield. No, he's not Xavi, but he's better at that than anyone else in the squad.

[Snowball]

I'm with you Snowball. The facts show there is genuine reason for confidence (although I'm fully aware other people will accuse me of being an RTG and burrying my head in the sand).

What a shame they give three points for a win and just one for a draw. That means you're far better off getting the wins and putting up with some losses. The gap is opening up and we will not close it with just one point a game (not that we will even achieve that).[/quote]

Yes the 3/1 system has changed football "rules" and that's why
last year McD said he always went for the win (like we did at Chelsea)

But it's utter rubbish to say the gap is opening up.

The simple fact is we need to keep the gap to less than 6 (and it's 3 now)

We merely need to keep pace with our relegation rivals (the two beneath us) and beat one of the ones above

Admittedly that would be VERY tight, but a win v Villa (if it was our next game) would transform the perspective. We'd be above them with a better GD and a game in hand.

We are really NOT in a bad position. It's not unreasonable to think we have a 50% chance of a draw with Sunderland, and a 5-10% of a win. That so, we are either 2 points or no points away from safety



I admit I'm very worried. My gut feel is we might lose to both Villa and Wigan (not a prediction just a sinking gut-feel) and then it would be very close to "all over"

But to be a GiH and just 3 points off safety is hardly the apocalypse

[Snowball]

1 Guthrie isn't a ball-RETAINER, he's a passer. One player like him hardly matters

I disagree entirely, and for me the stats don't matter. We were one-dimensional against Norwich, we need someone in the team who can pass the ball through the midfield. No, he's not Xavi, but he's better at that than anyone else in the squad.

But I wasn't talking about fancy passes, was I? I was talking about keeping possession
AND ONE PLAYER GOOD ON THE BALL IS NOT ENOUGH TO DO THAT

And NO he's NOT "better than anyone else in the squad."

He's got more close control. He's a better passer and has better vision.

But he's a relative lightweight, rarely wins tackles, and, like Matevosky, that makes him a liability

Thus, to play him you have to go 4-5-1 so Tabb/Karacan Elwood can do the dirty stuff he is no good at

But the simple facts are, style-wise, we are better when we play high-tempo because we lack pure ball skills
and to slow the game down surrenders advantage to the better-skilled 19 other clubs.

We saw that when we surrendered possession and defended v Liverpool, Swansea and Spurs.

With our squad our only hope is high tempo, in their faces football to stop 19 better footballing sides stroking it around and running us ragged

[Hoop Blah]

Snowball, we really are in a bad position, but it isn't an irretrievable one or one that leaves us with no chance of saving ourselves from the drop.

What's worse than our position though is our lack of good performances and ability to win.

[moonwalklikebas]

We have this. Sitting on the bench!! Play him for christ sake and get over your little fanny of an argument http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFTbRG-IYLk

[Ian Royal]

We have this. Sitting on the bench!! Play him for christ sake and get over your little fanny of an argument http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFTbRG-IYLk

He's not sitting on the bench. He's not in the matchday squad.

[Divvy]

Had we played a tactical game to suit Guthrie, the stats may have been different. Instead we have only ever had one way to play and, if the Manager brings in someone who is never going to shine in that system - that is a problem with the Manager, not the player!

If Guthrie had come on in the second half of the Arsenal game, with tactics suited to his style of play, we would not have lost (possibly).

1 Guthrie isn't a ball-RETAINER, he's a passer. One player like him hardly matters

Well actually yes it does. We play a negative style of long ball with 2 holding midfielders. No creativity at all in the middle. Most clubs pair a creative player and a holding player in the same side to get the balance of the two. We NEED someone like Guthrie in the side!

[Snowball]

Had we played a tactical game to suit Guthrie, the stats may have been different. Instead we have only ever had one way to play and, if the Manager brings in someone who is never going to shine in that system - that is a problem with the Manager, not the player!

If Guthrie had come on in the second half of the Arsenal game, with tactics suited to his style of play, we would not have lost (possibly).

1 Guthrie isn't a ball-RETAINER, he's a passer. One player like him hardly matters

Well actually yes it does. We play a negative style of long ball with 2 holding midfielders. No creativity at all in the middle. Most clubs pair a creative player and a holding player in the same side to get the balance of the two. We NEED someone like Guthrie in the side!

First you have to WIN the ball. How many times has Guthrie done that?

He isn't much of a defensive or ball-winning player, so either you have to expect one of Karacan-Elwood-Tabb to do the ball-winning
or you have to play two of them and go 4-5-1 losing a striker (or just possibly drop Kebe/McCleary or the captain.

Truth is we need good ball-winners who can also play a bit (and costing no more than a couple of million)

There must be dozens of those available.


Oh

[cmonurz]

He isn't much of a defensive or ball-winning player, so either you have to expect one of Karacan-Elwood-Tabb to do the ball-winning
or you have to play two of them and go 4-5-1 losing a striker (or just possibly drop Kebe/McCleary or the captain.

Yep. Let's do that then.

[melonhead]

mcanuff has been arguably our best and most consistent player imo
every time weve played 451 weve lost.

quite happy having our creativity on the wings thanks

[cmonurz]

mcanuff has been arguably our best and most consistent player imo
every time weve played 451 weve lost.

quite happy having our creativity on the wings thanks

Makes us a bit predictable, don't you think?

[Ian Royal]

mcanuff has been arguably our best and most consistent player imo
every time weve played 451 weve lost.

quite happy having our creativity on the wings thanks

Our left flank is the strongest part of our side by some way with Shorey and McAnuff.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Isn't the point being that we switch to 4-5-1 late on to close a game out?

[melonhead]

mcanuff has been arguably our best and most consistent player imo
every time weve played 451 weve lost.

quite happy having our creativity on the wings thanks

Makes us a bit predictable, don't you think?

as predictable as swanseas tip tap
as predictable as stokes long ball and rough house
as predictable as etc etc etc



although i agree- part of the problem has been our lack of a plan B
at home i would always start off 4-4-2, get the ball out to our wingers and get crosses in though, changing it only if we are swamped in midfield, or are getting no joy from out wide

[Wimb]

It seems to me that McDermott had a plan pre-season to change the way we play, to go 4-5-1 and grind out results away and at home to be more 4-4-2 and go for the win, but with a bit more skill in the middle with Guthrie partnering Ledge.

Within 4 games he's absolutely ripped up his pre-season plans and gone back to what he knows, but the very fact he changed it pre-season suggests that he had little confidence in it working anyway, so it's all about damage limitation right now.

The idea looked good on paper, a strong attacking right flank of Gunter/McCleary(Kebe) and a steady distribution and hard working left of Harte (Shorey) & McAnuff. Then you had a big strong skillful Russian up front in Pogrebnyak and a poacher with a good touch in Le Fondre to get on the end of balls threaded through by Guthrie or nipped in by the wingers.

The failure to get the best out of Guthrie has utterly devastated our season to date and it's not just Brian, but Nicky Hammond, Steve Shorey and Anton/SJM that needs to take the flack for that. They dumped all of their centre midfield eggs into 1 Guthrie shaped basket and it's now gone sour. So what we're left with is Leigertwood who wins enough of the ball but then gives it back. Tabb who's an absolute dynamo but again technically limited and Jem Karacan who even coming into the season had a massive injury worry and now is back on the treatment table.

With the team we've got now, 4-4-2 is just about his only option to get results and while I agree with Snowers that we're slowly grinding out results and it isn't crisis time, it is apparent that there's been an utter failure in the scouting/planning/recruitment this summer. As I've written on TTE today, it's exactly what caused SSC's side to self destruct in 07/08 and it's galling that exactly the same is happening again.

[Ian Royal]

Yeah I'd go with that. From what I saw of the Stoke and Chelsea games the plan wasn't even going too badly. Then we had a dire game against Spurs, a narrow defeat at WBA and suddenly it was panic stations. Which didn't really work, especially seeing as the team then started throwing away leads.

[melonhead]

It seems to me that McDermott had a plan pre-season to change the way we play, to go 4-5-1 and grind out results away and at home to be more 4-4-2 and go for the win, but with a bit more skill in the middle with Guthrie partnering Ledge.

Within 4 games he's absolutely ripped up his pre-season plans and gone back to what he knows, but the very fact he changed it pre-season suggests that he had little confidence in it working anyway, so it's all about damage limitation right now.

The idea looked good on paper, a strong attacking right flank of Gunter/McCleary(Kebe) and a steady distribution and hard working left of Harte (Shorey) & McAnuff. Then you had a big strong skillful Russian up front in Pogrebnyak and a poacher with a good touch in Le Fondre to get on the end of balls threaded through by Guthrie or nipped in by the wingers.

The failure to get the best out of Guthrie has utterly devastated our season to date and it's not just Brian, but Nicky Hammond, Steve Shorey and Anton/SJM that needs to take the flack for that. They dumped all of their centre midfield eggs into 1 Guthrie shaped basket and it's now gone sour. So what we're left with is Leigertwood who wins enough of the ball but then gives it back. Tabb who's an absolute dynamo but again technically limited and Jem Karacan who even coming into the season had a massive injury worry and now is back on the treatment table.

With the team we've got now, 4-4-2 is just about his only option to get results and while I agree with Snowers that we're slowly grinding out results and it isn't crisis time, it is apparent that there's been an utter failure in the scouting/planning/recruitment this summer. As I've written on TTE today, it's exactly what caused SSC's side to self destruct in 07/08 and it's galling that exactly the same is happening again.

utter failure is a touch strong
think we bought very well, and guthrie isnt working more due to attitude/DNA than ability etc
cant expect every player to work out....and we couldnt afford to buy two expensive(for us)CMs

totes greed with everything else youve said though

[Wimb]

Cheers Brenders,

Perhaps utter failure is too strong when talking about the entire recruitment this summer but I think it's safe to say that about the centre of the midfield. Mullins was recruited last year as we had concerns about the depth in the middle and in his place we've only added Guthrie over the summer. Even if DG had been a success off the field and on it, one injury and it would have again left us needing a new system etc.

I don't think it would have broken the bank to add another midfielder, especially when we could have easily decided to sell a striker or a winger to fund it.

Then again I guess hindsight is a wonderful thing

[RoyalBlue]

Cheers Brenders,

Perhaps utter failure is too strong when talking about the entire recruitment this summer but I think it's safe to say that about the centre of the midfield. Mullins was recruited last year as we had concerns about the depth in the middle and in his place we've only added Guthrie over the summer. Even if DG had been a success off the field and on it, one injury and it would have again left us needing a new system etc.

I don't think it would have broken the bank to add another midfielder, especially when we could have easily decided to sell a striker or a winger to fund it.

Then again I guess hindsight is a wonderful thing

And the foresight shown by many outside the club management was even more wonderful! Thing was, those people could be dispassionate & did not feel an overwhelming duty of loyalty to those players who had got us to the promised land.