1st reason why McDermott should go - No Guthrie

[Wimb]

Cheers Brenders,

Perhaps utter failure is too strong when talking about the entire recruitment this summer but I think it's safe to say that about the centre of the midfield. Mullins was recruited last year as we had concerns about the depth in the middle and in his place we've only added Guthrie over the summer. Even if DG had been a success off the field and on it, one injury and it would have again left us needing a new system etc.

I don't think it would have broken the bank to add another midfielder, especially when we could have easily decided to sell a striker or a winger to fund it.

Then again I guess hindsight is a wonderful thing

And the foresight shown by many outside the club management was even more wonderful! Thing was, those people could be dispassionate & did not feel an overwhelming duty of loyalty to those players who had got us to the promised land.

I have to admit I thought we'd have enough to con our way through until January, especially with how promising Guthrie was looking pre-season but yeah, short sighted and the gamble has well and truly failed.

Thing is I'm starting to pin more of my anger on the board/Hammond rather than Brian. He's a relatively inexperienced manager doing a great job with a limited backroom staff. People like Hammond should have been saying look we're a bit light lets at least grab a loan for a season to give you some depth.

[RoyalBlue]

Cheers Brenders,

Perhaps utter failure is too strong when talking about the entire recruitment this summer but I think it's safe to say that about the centre of the midfield. Mullins was recruited last year as we had concerns about the depth in the middle and in his place we've only added Guthrie over the summer. Even if DG had been a success off the field and on it, one injury and it would have again left us needing a new system etc.

I don't think it would have broken the bank to add another midfielder, especially when we could have easily decided to sell a striker or a winger to fund it.

Then again I guess hindsight is a wonderful thing

And the foresight shown by many outside the club management was even more wonderful! Thing was, those people could be dispassionate & did not feel an overwhelming duty of loyalty to those players who had got us to the promised land.

I have to admit I thought we'd have enough to con our way through until January, especially with how promising Guthrie was looking pre-season but yeah, short sighted and the gamble has well and truly failed.

Thing is I'm starting to pin more of my anger on the board/Hammond rather than Brian. He's a relatively inexperienced manager doing a great job with a limited backroom staff. People like Hammond should have been saying look we're a bit light lets at least grab a loan for a season to give you some depth.

Don't disagree with you there. Hammond has been there, done it, got the T shirt and got relegated for similar reasons that we are in the mire again.

[Hoop Blah]

Good points about the failure of the recruitment policy Wimb, but I'm not sure the blame can sit with Hammond etc for not forcing players on him.

The last thing we really want is the manager being undermined and the board over stepping the mark.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Signings that have worked out?

McCleary - ok
Shorey - good

Signings that haven't?

Pog - dissapointing
Guthrie - ousted
Mariappa - shit
Gunter - struggling


Not a particularly successful pre-season in my opinion. Back-up players weren't really what was needed, and 4/6 of 'em are lucky to call themselves that.

[Ian Royal]

Whilst most of those signings have hardly been a clear success, I think writing them off just yet is rather premature, given most of them haven't played many games yet. And Pog has scored goals.

I still have hope for Mariappa and do wonder how he'd look alongside Pearce or Morrison. Guthrie is clearly a class player, so its a question of how we get it out of him.

[melonhead]

Signings that have worked out?

McCleary - ok
Shorey - good

Signings that haven't?

Pog - dissapointing
Guthrie - ousted
Mariappa - shit
Gunter - struggling

Not a particularly successful pre-season in my opinion. Back-up players weren't really what was needed, and 4/6 of 'em are lucky to call themselves that.

nonsense

[Cobi]

Signings that have worked out?

McCleary - ok
Shorey - good

Signings that haven't?

Pog - dissapointing
Guthrie - ousted
Mariappa - shit
Gunter - struggling


Not a particularly successful pre-season in my opinion. Back-up players weren't really what was needed, and 4/6 of 'em are lucky to call themselves that.

Pog isn't a work horse but he's still scored an impressive amount of goals considering how crap we are! Play better football and we have a terrific finisher there.

The problem is Brian wants these guys to fit into his negative lump it, run about with lots of energy style, where as they will in most cases give a better account of themselves in a new system. Perhaps keeping the ball on the floor, retaining possession and getting it out wide. But what do we know.

[Lacoste]

Signings that have worked out?

McCleary - ok
Shorey - good

Signings that haven't?

Pog - dissapointing
Guthrie - ousted
Mariappa - shit
Gunter - struggling


Not a particularly successful pre-season in my opinion. Back-up players weren't really what was needed, and 4/6 of 'em are lucky to call themselves that.

Pog isn't a work horse but he's still scored an impressive amount of goals considering how crap we are! Play better football and we have a terrific finisher there.

The problem is Brian wants these guys to fit into his negative lump it, run about with lots of energy style, where as they will in most cases give a better account of themselves in a new system. Perhaps keeping the ball on the floor, retaining possession and getting it out wide. But what do we know.

What you have just said is Brians vision of hell.

[Cobi]

Signings that have worked out?

McCleary - ok
Shorey - good

Signings that haven't?

Pog - dissapointing
Guthrie - ousted
Mariappa - shit
Gunter - struggling


Not a particularly successful pre-season in my opinion. Back-up players weren't really what was needed, and 4/6 of 'em are lucky to call themselves that.

Pog isn't a work horse but he's still scored an impressive amount of goals considering how crap we are! Play better football and we have a terrific finisher there.

The problem is Brian wants these guys to fit into his negative lump it, run about with lots of energy style, where as they will in most cases give a better account of themselves in a new system. Perhaps keeping the ball on the floor, retaining possession and getting it out wide. But what do we know.

What you have just said is Brians vision of hell.

Disappointingly agreed.

I don't know why we can't combine the two. Football on the floor, keep possession, use the wings and get the ball into the box. When not in possession play high tempo and close the oppo down at all times, not for only the first 45 minutes.. A mix of both will cause problems for most sides around us, and we have some excellent wingers here that we often lose in games.

[sandman]

"Brians idea of hell", wouldn't want to be in a crisis with any of you lot. He has changed his tactics and formation to suit the personnel before with success.

[RoyalBlue]

"Brians idea of hell", wouldn't want to be in a crisis with any of you lot. He has changed his tactics and formation to suit the personnel before with success.

But he's spectacularly failed to do that this time around and shows little inclination to want to try something else. I fear he has lost the plot, which Steve Coppell was desperately searching for in his last few months in the PL.

[sandman]

Do you ever think that maybe Guthrie isn't good enough to completely change the system around for? Managers always want a slightly different option to what they've already got but Guthrie is no Gylfi and isn't good enough to build a team around so you expect him to knuckle down and adapt to our style whilst keeping some of his own traits. So far he's just thrown his toys out of the pram and in order for Brian to do anything with him he needs to show some willingness to adapt.

To claim that Brian has "lost it like Coppell" is ridiculous at the moment. You have to wait until 1st February at the very earliest before you can even begin to argue about that.

[Lacoste]

Do you ever think that maybe Guthrie isn't good enough to completely change the system around for? Managers always want a slightly different option to what they've already got but Guthrie is no Gylfi and isn't good enough to build a team around so you expect him to knuckle down and adapt to our style whilst keeping some of his own traits. So far he's just thrown his toys out of the pram and in order for Brian to do anything with him he needs to show some willingness to adapt.

To claim that Brian has "lost it like Coppell" is ridiculous at the moment. You have to wait until 1st February at the very earliest before you can even begin to argue about that.

Brian brings a player in and then tries to flog him on loan within 3 months.

Brian is at fault somewhere down the line.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Do you ever think that maybe Guthrie isn't good enough to completely change the system around for? Managers always want a slightly different option to what they've already got but Guthrie is no Gylfi and isn't good enough to build a team around so you expect him to knuckle down and adapt to our style whilst keeping some of his own traits. So far he's just thrown his toys out of the pram and in order for Brian to do anything with him he needs to show some willingness to adapt.

To claim that Brian has "lost it like Coppell" is ridiculous at the moment. You have to wait until 1st February at the very earliest before you can even begin to argue about that.

Not sure many are suggesting Guthrie should come in and change the system. Just seems silly to have a team who run out of steam and possesion two thirds into the game, require a formation change to close out a game, and yet have fallen out with a player who could help.

[ZacNaloen]

I agree EP, bring on Guthrie for one of the strikers and watch as we keep possession much better.

That's how it should work... That's what we should have been able to do against Arsenal, except he was injured, right?

[sandman]

Do you ever think that maybe Guthrie isn't good enough to completely change the system around for? Managers always want a slightly different option to what they've already got but Guthrie is no Gylfi and isn't good enough to build a team around so you expect him to knuckle down and adapt to our style whilst keeping some of his own traits. So far he's just thrown his toys out of the pram and in order for Brian to do anything with him he needs to show some willingness to adapt.

To claim that Brian has "lost it like Coppell" is ridiculous at the moment. You have to wait until 1st February at the very earliest before you can even begin to argue about that.

Not sure many are suggesting Guthrie should come in and change the system. Just seems silly to have a team who run out of steam and possesion two thirds into the game, require a formation change to close out a game, and yet have fallen out with a player who could help.

Really? They seem to think he's the answer to all our prayers and we should change our style to suit him rather than he knuckle down and tweak his style to suit us. Changing your style to suit one player sure sounds like building the team around that player to me.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Do you ever think that maybe Guthrie isn't good enough to completely change the system around for? Managers always want a slightly different option to what they've already got but Guthrie is no Gylfi and isn't good enough to build a team around so you expect him to knuckle down and adapt to our style whilst keeping some of his own traits. So far he's just thrown his toys out of the pram and in order for Brian to do anything with him he needs to show some willingness to adapt.

To claim that Brian has "lost it like Coppell" is ridiculous at the moment. You have to wait until 1st February at the very earliest before you can even begin to argue about that.

Not sure many are suggesting Guthrie should come in and change the system. Just seems silly to have a team who run out of steam and possesion two thirds into the game, require a formation change to close out a game, and yet have fallen out with a player who could help.

Really? They seem to think he's the answer to all our prayers and we should change our style to suit him rather than he knuckle down and tweak his style to suit us. Changing your style to suit one player sure sounds like building the team around that player to me.

Not sure that’s true.

However, would you disagree that Guthrie was brought in as an expected first teamer? I think there is a big difference to building a team around a player and in looking to add creativity or bolster possession, bringing in/on a good passer.

Was he great when he played? Nope. But he did top our charts as the most accurate passer, and second most frequent passer. Seems like at the very least he's lived up to his bio.

[Cypry]

Really? They seem to think he's the answer to all our prayers and we should change our style to suit him rather than he knuckle down and tweak his style to suit us. Changing your style to suit one player sure sounds like building the team around that player to me.

^this

There's risk in every signing, it's impossible to be certain that they're going to work, and of those made this Summer, the only one that had conclusively failed seems to be Guthrie. Given Feds recent comments and a few other snippets from inside the camp, this would seem to be more to do with the player not fitting in, and resisting adapting to what we need him to do, as much as anything else, yet so many on this thread seem to think that playing Guthrie will somehow magically turn our season around.....

If the player is obviously not going to fit in, then I think it takes considerable guts from McD to admit he was wrong, and work to move Guthrie on as soon as he has....I don't necessarily think anyone is to blame, after all, how many people go through an interview process, accept a job offer and join a new employer only to find within a few months it's not working out? It happens, it's not ideal, but it does happen...

As for those claiming McD has "lost the plot" that's rubbish - like it or not, we are competing at this level - OK, we're yet to win a game, but we've only lost 1 in the last 6. It's a platform to build from and my gut feeling is we're not far from turning some of those draws into wins.

[Hoop Blah]

I think there's a big difference in utilising a specific players abilities to be the catalyst for change and actually building a side around them.

Gunter and McLeary, and certainly Pog look like player brought in to evolve the style of play a bit so it's not just about building a team around Guthrie, who isn't 'a class act' at this level, he's just an average Premier League midfielder who's main talent is passing the ball pretty effectively.

He's almost a Premier League Brian Howard in that respect.

[Royal91]

I think there's a big difference in utilising a specific players abilities to be the catalyst for change and actually building a side around them.

This. Only a few players in the world have a team built around them!