England - the future....

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Old Man Andrews
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Re: England - the future....

by Old Man Andrews » 26 Mar 2019 07:15

Royal Rother Rice was my MOTM. Love the way he waits for the moment to challenge an opponent and then cleanly nicks the ball and lays it off. Always in space, big, strong and calm.

Beckenbaueresque.


I will reserve full judgement until I have seen him agaisnt world class opposition but he did look good last night, upgrade on Dier.

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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 26 Mar 2019 08:00

Victor Meldrew
Southgate I think a year or so ago thought that he would get the public onside by playing younger players-if they had failed it wouldn't have been his fault because they are young and make mistakes.


It's nothing to do with getting the public onside. Talk about damning with faint praise. It's Southgate's ethos. Don't forget he has worked with many of the players he now picks, at age group level, and it shouldn't be a surprise that he then sees our U17 World Cup winners and the obvious strides they have taken, and brings them into the senior setup.

I do agree with you though that barring our form falling off a cliff-edge, this job is his as long as he wants it.

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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 26 Mar 2019 08:01

Separately, I'm admiring Raheem Sterling more almost every time I watch him play, for City or England, not least for the mature way in which he conducts himself on the pitch. Future England captain, I'd venture.

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Re: England - the future....

by 6ft Kerplunk » 26 Mar 2019 09:20

Victor Meldrew I know Foxy and I have gone on about ITV, and in particular Tyledesley's commentaries, in the past but he is worse than ever tonight by hyping this team so much when they are playing the equivalent of Bristol City.


Tyledesley was at his most annoying last night. Hudson Odoi went from being the greatest 18 year old ever in the history of football in the first 15 minutes, to a naïve hopelessly out of his depth kid for the next 15 mins and then back to the greatest 18 year old ever for the last 15 mins of the first half. Then of course the usual stuff about everyone putting too much pressure on young players whilst forgetting that he's been the only one in the coverage doing that.

Hudson Odoi had a very good match. Yes, he could have done more for their goal but he was unlucky that it lead to a goal. But he's young and he'll learn from it. Keane's poor header was at least as much to blame for it.

But the worst thing Tyledesley did last night was to question if Sterling should celebrate his goal how he did and not mention the racist abuse they'd been getting. Shameful.

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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 26 Mar 2019 09:44

Old Man Andrews
Royal Rother Rice was my MOTM. Love the way he waits for the moment to challenge an opponent and then cleanly nicks the ball and lays it off. Always in space, big, strong and calm.

Beckenbaueresque.


I will reserve full judgement until I have seen him agaisnt world class opposition but he did look good last night, upgrade on Dier.


Agreed with both comments to be fair. I thought Rice was excellent last night but it was an easy game for defensive player to largely coast through. Having said that though, he moved the ball quickly and took up excellent positions to make the game look easier than it perhaps could've been.

There is a risk that we get a little too carried away through these qualifiers, as we have done before but that's where I'm hoping the Nations League will play another important part in putting some perspective on our progress. If we perform as well in those games, and even win it, then it'll show that we're not just knocking over the weak teams.

Really pleased to see Barkley taking his chance as one of those 3 midfielders. I think that's a good position for him, more so than it is for Dele Alli who is in danger of missing out in if we're playing 4-3-3 moving forwards.


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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 26 Mar 2019 09:51

6ft Kerplunk But the worst thing Tyledesley did last night was to question if Sterling should celebrate his goal how he did and not mention the racist abuse they'd been getting. Shameful.


I'm not sure Tyledsley even knew about the racist abuse before Sterling's celebration brought it to everyones attention.

The effect mics didn't seem to pick anything up and the comms team are probably being fed that same audio as us. I'd guess, giving them the benefit of doubt, that they initially thought he was just trying to wind up a section of the crowd having scored, not silence any sinister element having endured a load of abuse.

I was actually surprised during the match how calm and subdued the atmosphere seemed to be. That might've just been because it was being filtered to stop certain bits being broadcast on ITV.

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Re: England - the future....

by Silver Fox » 26 Mar 2019 10:58

6ft Kerplunk
Victor Meldrew I know Foxy and I have gone on about ITV, and in particular Tyledesley's commentaries, in the past but he is worse than ever tonight by hyping this team so much when they are playing the equivalent of Bristol City.


Tyledesley was at his most annoying last night. Hudson Odoi went from being the greatest 18 year old ever in the history of football in the first 15 minutes, to a naïve hopelessly out of his depth kid for the next 15 mins and then back to the greatest 18 year old ever for the last 15 mins of the first half. Then of course the usual stuff about everyone putting too much pressure on young players whilst forgetting that he's been the only one in the coverage doing that.

Hudson Odoi had a very good match. Yes, he could have done more for their goal but he was unlucky that it lead to a goal. But he's young and he'll learn from it. Keane's poor header was at least as much to blame for it.

But the worst thing Tyledesley did last night was to question if Sterling should celebrate his goal how he did and not mention the racist abuse they'd been getting. Shameful.


I only managed the last 25 minutes or so of the first half. Considering England should win the group with ease I'll restrict my international break viewing to Scotland's games from behind the sofa rather than listen to Clive or subject myself to the expert analysis of Joe Cole

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Re: England - the future....

by Victor Meldrew » 26 Mar 2019 11:24

Away from last night's game for a moment and on to selection of players.

Southgate stated recently that Butland needs to play at a higher level than the Championship to be considered.
Recently Mason Mount, who plays for Derby in the Championship got in the squad and yet Foden, who has had more relevant first team action than Hudson-Odoi, doesn't get selected-the same Foden that just about everybody seems to think is destined for great things and who plays in what is perceived to be a problem position for the National side.
Is it just that Southgate feels he is not ready, just as Sarri thinks Hudson-Odoi is not ready for Chelsea?

All managers have favourite players and Southgate has actively brought through the young 'uns with incredible haste such as Sancho, Hudson-Odoi, Alexander-Arnold,Winks and now Rice but no Foden who plays now and again for possibly the best English side whereas Hudson-Odoi only plays for Chelsea and Rice even more only for West Ham.

Back to Butland-does playing in the Premier League make you a better keeper (he played there last year)?
If so, in what way?

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Re: England - the future....

by The Enfield Royal71 » 26 Mar 2019 12:04

Victor Meldrew Away from last night's game for a moment and on to selection of players.

Southgate stated recently that Butland needs to play at a higher level than the Championship to be considered.
Recently Mason Mount, who plays for Derby in the Championship got in the squad and yet Foden, who has had more relevant first team action than Hudson-Odoi, doesn't get selected-the same Foden that just about everybody seems to think is destined for great things and who plays in what is perceived to be a problem position for the National side.
Is it just that Southgate feels he is not ready, just as Sarri thinks Hudson-Odoi is not ready for Chelsea?

All managers have favourite players and Southgate has actively brought through the young 'uns with incredible haste such as Sancho, Hudson-Odoi, Alexander-Arnold,Winks and now Rice but no Foden who plays now and again for possibly the best English side whereas Hudson-Odoi only plays for Chelsea and Rice even more only for West Ham.

Back to Butland-does playing in the Premier League make you a better keeper (he played there last year)?
If so, in what way?


"whereas Hudson-Odoi only plays for Chelsea and Rice even more only for West Ham."
:| :| :|


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Re: England - the future....

by 6ft Kerplunk » 26 Mar 2019 12:12

Its easier for Southgate to get Sancho and Hudson-Ohio meaningful playing time than it would be for Foden. So Foden probably is better off getting full matches for the U21s.

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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 26 Mar 2019 12:12

Victor Meldrew Back to Butland-does playing in the Premier League make you a better keeper (he played there last year)?
If so, in what way?


I'm guessing that, like any position, you're put under more pressure and tested more by better opposition. You get punished more for your mistakes in the Premier League and, as a goalkeeper specifically, you're facing players who are much more ruthless in front of goal and so your technique and positioning can be exposed a lot more than playing in the Championship.

I still think that Butland is a better keeper than Pickford but he just isn't as good with the ball at his feet, or in his hands, and so Southgate prefers Pickford because of the way he wants to play. Butland probably needs to leave Stoke this summer to further his cause, although I think he's going to struggle to change Southgate's mind regardless.

With regards to other players, it's probably a lot to do with the make up of the squad and the position you play. It's a lot easier to come into a team as a young winger or centre forward than it is a as a central midfielder or defender. Any role that leans more on discipline and positioning is harder for an inexperienced player to break into, IMO.

On top of that Foden is up against some stiff competition for the two wider midfield roles too. Henderson, Alli, Barkley, Loftus-Cheek and Delph have all done a good job for Southgate in that position of late. They're all (Delph aside, I think) playing more than Foden. You've then got Lingard, Winks, Ward-Prowse (who'd scored 3 or 4 goals in his last few games) and Maddison challenging for those spots too.

Foden hasn't played much for the U21s yet and with the more experienced players in the squad already I'd guess Southgate thought he'd be better served being a key part of the U21s for a bit now. He can't bring too many 18/20 year olds into the squad at the same time either.

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Re: England - the future....

by Victor Meldrew » 26 Mar 2019 12:42

Hoop Blah
Victor Meldrew Back to Butland-does playing in the Premier League make you a better keeper (he played there last year)?
If so, in what way?


I'm guessing that, like any position, you're put under more pressure and tested more by better opposition. You get punished more for your mistakes in the Premier League and, as a goalkeeper specifically, you're facing players who are much more ruthless in front of goal and so your technique and positioning can be exposed a lot more than playing in the Championship.

I still think that Butland is a better keeper than Pickford but he just isn't as good with the ball at his feet, or in his hands, and so Southgate prefers Pickford because of the way he wants to play. Butland probably needs to leave Stoke this summer to further his cause, although I think he's going to struggle to change Southgate's mind regardless.

With regards to other players, it's probably a lot to do with the make up of the squad and the position you play. It's a lot easier to come into a team as a young winger or centre forward than it is a as a central midfielder or defender. Any role that leans more on discipline and positioning is harder for an inexperienced player to break into, IMO.

On top of that Foden is up against some stiff competition for the two wider midfield roles too. Henderson, Alli, Barkley, Loftus-Cheek and Delph have all done a good job for Southgate in that position of late. They're all (Delph aside, I think) playing more than Foden. You've then got Lingard, Winks, Ward-Prowse (who'd scored 3 or 4 goals in his last few games) and Maddison challenging for those spots too.

Foden hasn't played much for the U21s yet and with the more experienced players in the squad already I'd guess Southgate thought he'd be better served being a key part of the U21s for a bit now. He can't bring too many 18/20 year olds into the squad at the same time either.


I think you are probably right that with Hudson-Odoi and Sancho playing as wingers there is less general responsibility than is the case if you play in midfield.
Checking on Jack Wilshere, a similar player to Foden if not as quick,he played for England at 18 but he had been a regular for Arsenal for a while so probably that bit more experienced.

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Re: England - the future....

by Victor Meldrew » 26 Mar 2019 12:42

The Enfield Royal71
Victor Meldrew Away from last night's game for a moment and on to selection of players.

Southgate stated recently that Butland needs to play at a higher level than the Championship to be considered.
Recently Mason Mount, who plays for Derby in the Championship got in the squad and yet Foden, who has had more relevant first team action than Hudson-Odoi, doesn't get selected-the same Foden that just about everybody seems to think is destined for great things and who plays in what is perceived to be a problem position for the National side.
Is it just that Southgate feels he is not ready, just as Sarri thinks Hudson-Odoi is not ready for Chelsea?

All managers have favourite players and Southgate has actively brought through the young 'uns with incredible haste such as Sancho, Hudson-Odoi, Alexander-Arnold,Winks and now Rice but no Foden who plays now and again for possibly the best English side whereas Hudson-Odoi only plays for Chelsea and Rice even more only for West Ham.

Back to Butland-does playing in the Premier League make you a better keeper (he played there last year)?
If so, in what way?


"whereas Hudson-Odoi only plays for Chelsea and Rice even more only for West Ham."

Yes, not a top club.
:| :| :|


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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 26 Mar 2019 12:51

Hoop Blah
There is a risk that we get a little too carried away through these qualifiers, as we have done before but that's where I'm hoping the Nations League will play another important part in putting some perspective on our progress. If we perform as well in those games, and even win it, then it'll show that we're not just knocking over the weak teams.



Let's not forget that we've already got past Spain and Croatia to get to the Nations League finals. There's a risk we start 'not getting carried away' with anything at all. If we do win the Nations League I half expect people to say that it's 'only the Nations League, let's not get carried away'.

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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 26 Mar 2019 12:53

Perhaps most encouragingly, we've achieved these last two good results without the involvement of any of Alexander-Arnold, Stones, Gomez, Lingard, Trippier and Rashford. And with the likes of Shaw and Winks looking to force their way into the side too.

Also worth a note that aside from Walker, Rose and Henderson (all 28, and arguably none of them first choice), and a couple of minutes for Callum Wilson as a sub, the oldest player used in these games has been Michael Keane, who only turned 26 in January.

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Re: England - the future....

by Hoop Blah » 26 Mar 2019 13:10

Sanguine
Hoop Blah
There is a risk that we get a little too carried away through these qualifiers, as we have done before but that's where I'm hoping the Nations League will play another important part in putting some perspective on our progress. If we perform as well in those games, and even win it, then it'll show that we're not just knocking over the weak teams.



Let's not forget that we've already got past Spain and Croatia to get to the Nations League finals. There's a risk we start 'not getting carried away' with anything at all. If we do win the Nations League I half expect people to say that it's 'only the Nations League, let's not get carried away'.


Oh I agree, and the results in the Nations League were very impressive and worth getting carried away with. Winning these last two games less so, although the scorelines are certainly a very positive sign because we'd probably have limped to a 2 or 3 goal win at best over the last 10/15 years in the same games.

I was very sceptical about the Nations League, but I have to say it's been a breath of fresh air for international football and Southgate has been quite fortunate that he's been the manager when it was introduced as it's really helped continue the wave of optimism and positivity since the World Cup.

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Re: England - the future....

by Victor Meldrew » 26 Mar 2019 13:20

Sanguine
Hoop Blah
There is a risk that we get a little too carried away through these qualifiers, as we have done before but that's where I'm hoping the Nations League will play another important part in putting some perspective on our progress. If we perform as well in those games, and even win it, then it'll show that we're not just knocking over the weak teams.



Let's not forget that we've already got past Spain and Croatia to get to the Nations League finals. There's a risk we start 'not getting carried away' with anything at all. If we do win the Nations League I half expect people to say that it's 'only the Nations League, let's not get carried away'.


It depends upon where you set the bar.
Like Spurs fans wanting to win the league again since 1962 England fans are feeling the same about the world cup-that is surely a correct assessment of how good a team is in a specific era.
We haven't really come that close (not made a final) and not even won the Euros (when countries like Denmark have) and with a league where so many of the better players in the world play and where we challenge regularly for the Euro Champs League the expectation that at the very least is that we need to win a Euro Nations Championship .

Until then "not get carried away" seems a reasonable statement as fans and the media have so often got carried away for more than 50 years of new golden generations.
Incidentally nobody got carried away in the run-up to the '66 final but then we were perhaps a more modest nation then.
This one is different because of the greater emphasis on youth but until something is won I will go along with Hoop Blah and it has to be preferably the world cup or the Euros as I'm not convinced that the other Nations League entrants have taken the competition that seriously whereas we take ALL games (including friendlies) seriously.

No doubt you will interpret this as a negative stance but when you have been through over 50 years of hurt (as they say) and hype and false dawns I feel that the time to crow is when we win one of the two major competitions and not before so I won't be getting carried away until substance replaces hype..

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Re: England - the future....

by Sanguine » 26 Mar 2019 13:23

Yeah, I think it's pretty negative to state that anything but winning a World Cup or European Championships would be a failure, certainly when talking about this current team and the next two tournaments. A lot of this squad will peak through 2024-2026.

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Re: England - the future....

by Victor Meldrew » 26 Mar 2019 15:49

Sanguine Yeah, I think it's pretty negative to state that anything but winning a World Cup or European Championships would be a failure, certainly when talking about this current team and the next two tournaments. A lot of this squad will peak through 2024-2026.


I hope you are right but we have heard all this before-nobody said failure per se it is that to be regarded as the best of their era is to win a world cup or, best in Europe, the Euros.
Also there is always the assumption that every other country in the world will stand still.

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Re: England - the future....

by Snowflake Royal » 26 Mar 2019 23:00

Making a Final would be a success. Hell making a semi without an easy draw to get there would be a success.
Beating a major player in a major Finals would be a success. Especially at knockout stage.

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