Gomes, Should he stay or should he go? Mk2

[windermereROYAL]

The games until the end of October were always going to be challenging, 3 more to go. not convinced we will get a single point, that will more than likely leave us bottom of the table.
November and up to the new year lots of the fixtures on paper look a bit more friendly. whether Gomes get the time is another story.

[krapmle]

time to do what, cement our position at the bottom?

[Elm Park Kid]

I've always believed that unless a team is under real threat of relegation - or that there is something blindingly obviously wrong at the club - that a manager should always be given two full season. Though, I also believe that you shouldn't hire managers that have no record of experience at your level . . . .

[Millsy]

I've already said what I think is right.

He should have 5 games post Fulham to show some improvement. If he picks up a draw +1 game. If he picks up a win +2 games. If he loses the next 2 as well, might as well just call it early, because it'll be 1 point from 8 games, or 1 out of 24 points.

I didn't say it wasn't possible to stay up last season, I said I didn't think it would happen. There's a subtle difference. And once again, I never expected us to bring in 5 excellent loanees.

Gomes has had ample time (11 games) to see what he's doing wrong, and no sign of it changing. Why will that change over the next ten? What in his career suggests he can turn this around?

He's gone. It's just a matter of time and I'd rather it was sooner than later.

Considering the rest of your post and the one above it not sure why you’re even suggesting giving him 5 more games

Yep I’m struggling with what he is saying.

To be fair if there seem to be inconsistencies in what people are posting it’s because in truth fans generally are probably a bit confused and torn, me included. The guy did well last season. He is likeable and honest. He did many things right (making bold choices of who was in and out and got rid of dead wood), he brought in generally good signings on loan or permanent and this culminated in a glorious week of football. Only for everything to mysteriously unravel before our eyes. No one without blind love or blind hatred for the man will not be torn in their minds. I read his suggestion as “basically it looks like inevitably sadly he probably needs to go BUT we should probably give him a short chance”. That approach is very reasonable and none of us can really knock it. It’s almost certainly what is going to happen too.

[Lower West]

While summer clearout made sense. The incoming transfers appear to be yet again a boom or bust approach. Akin to the Steve Clarke era. The recruitment drive doesn't seem to have delivered the required results. Again we have some big money players with questionable match day attitude .

Gomes appears to be learning on the job. Tactically out thought by opposition managers far too often. Difficult to see how he can dig himself out of this hole. Perhaps reflects his previous management jobs. As has never lasted anywhere for very long.

Putting the results aside. There's a discernable lack of progress in even building a team this season. Another opportunity wasted. I moved into the out camp after the Wolves game. An opportunity missed to employ a more attacking formation from the off. At least try and win the game. Rather than counter attack on the break.

[WoodleyRoyal]

Wasn’t Bowen a lot more engaged in the tactical side of things towards the end of last season? Results seemed to have slid since his move upstairs. is that the reason Gomes is tactically looking lost? He was appointed to his new role end of August, just after our run of results finished. since then things have turned to shit, Just a thought...

Basically last years resurgence was probably down to Bowen not Gomes.

[URZZZZ]

It's quite ironic that the people that say "Gomes needs more time!" are the exact same people that were calling for Stam and Clement to go after the exact same period (just before the second international break). Infact, we're doing even worse this season than at the same stage the last two and with the most money spent. Double standards and all that

We spent considerably more money under Stam than we have under Gomes or have you forgotten the January and summer transfer windows in 2017 that placed us in so much debt? I also can’t recall asking for Stam to go in October 2017. That’s a nonsense. I never thought Clement was up to it.

Pretty sure we spent more this summer than two summers ago. And we're even worse now

There were plenty of calls for Stam to go very quickly into the next season. He, like Gomes, isn't learning from past mistakes and it's going to backfire

[Hound]

Ilori (realise that wasn’t in the summer)&Aluko probably cost the same as what we’ve spent this year on Joao and Puscas roughly

Then there was Bacuna, barrow, Edwards who all cost about 1-2m

[URZZZZ]

I thought I saw somewhere this summer was our highest spend, that's all. Can't verify it, may be wrong but the point still stands that the start of the season is completely unacceptable. If Joao is worth 5 million, the world really is going mad. Was he not fifth/sixth choice striker for Wednesday at times? Was he not loaned out to relegation struggled Blackburn? Makes Ilori look a good signing at this rate and he really was garbage

[Snowflake Royal]

Ian. So you think it right to sack Gomes in early October after just 11 games? He has to change the playing style. That’s a given. If he doesn’t learn that in the next couple of weeks he’s gone.

After doing a very good job at turning it around last season (something you thought was not possible) you want him sacked after his first poor run.

He should be given longer to turn it around. If we are bottom three in two months time then yep he should go but he needs the chance to get results in winnable games v Millwall and Luton to get this back on track. This is on the assumption that he has learnt from the self induced problems we are seeing every week.

I've already said what I think is right.

He should have 5 games post Fulham to show some improvement. If he picks up a draw +1 game. If he picks up a win +2 games. If he loses the next 2 as well, might as well just call it early, because it'll be 1 point from 8 games, or 1 out of 24 points.

I didn't say it wasn't possible to stay up last season, I said I didn't think it would happen. There's a subtle difference. And once again, I never expected us to bring in 5 excellent loanees.

Gomes has had ample time (11 games) to see what he's doing wrong, and no sign of it changing. Why will that change over the next ten? What in his career suggests he can turn this around?

He's gone. It's just a matter of time and I'd rather it was sooner than later.

Considering the rest of your post and the one above it not sure why you’re even suggesting giving him 5 more games

Because he deserves at least a chance to turn it around, as do all managers, just not an extended one. If performance is unacceptable, set a target, measure improvement, make sure everyone knows where they are.

[CountryRoyal]

My mindset is always once I believe a manager is done and there is no way they’ll turn it around, then what’s the point of delaying it? Get rid sharpish and try and give yourself as much time as possible to save the season. No point saying yeah he’s not the man but give him til Christmas.

I would give him a chance to show that he can adapt. He needs to go back to basics.

Is that not what we’ve been doing since Charlton? Giving him chances?

Because we certainly haven’t been adapting.

[Snowflake Royal]

I've already said what I think is right.

He should have 5 games post Fulham to show some improvement. If he picks up a draw +1 game. If he picks up a win +2 games. If he loses the next 2 as well, might as well just call it early, because it'll be 1 point from 8 games, or 1 out of 24 points.

I didn't say it wasn't possible to stay up last season, I said I didn't think it would happen. There's a subtle difference. And once again, I never expected us to bring in 5 excellent loanees.

Gomes has had ample time (11 games) to see what he's doing wrong, and no sign of it changing. Why will that change over the next ten? What in his career suggests he can turn this around?

He's gone. It's just a matter of time and I'd rather it was sooner than later.

Considering the rest of your post and the one above it not sure why you’re even suggesting giving him 5 more games

Yep I’m struggling with what he is saying.

If either of you would like to explain what you're struggling with I'll try to do a better job of expressing myself.

But right now I don't see anything complicated, contradictory or struggle worthy.

[Snowflake Royal]

My mindset is always once I believe a manager is done and there is no way they’ll turn it around, then what’s the point of delaying it? Get rid sharpish and try and give yourself as much time as possible to save the season. No point saying yeah he’s not the man but give him til Christmas.

I would give him a chance to show that he can adapt. He needs to go back to basics.

Is that not what we’ve been doing since Charlton? Giving him chances?

Because we certainly haven’t been adapting.

And that's almost exactly what I've said I would do, but zip basically posts the same thing then says he doesn't understand what my point is.

[Zip]

My mindset is always once I believe a manager is done and there is no way they’ll turn it around, then what’s the point of delaying it? Get rid sharpish and try and give yourself as much time as possible to save the season. No point saying yeah he’s not the man but give him til Christmas.

I would give him a chance to show that he can adapt. He needs to go back to basics.

Is that not what we’ve been doing since Charlton? Giving him chances?

Because we certainly haven’t been adapting.

So should we sack a manager every time we go on a bad run? This is his first bad run of results having done well to keep us up.

[CountryRoyal]

I would give him a chance to show that he can adapt. He needs to go back to basics.

Is that not what we’ve been doing since Charlton? Giving him chances?

Because we certainly haven’t been adapting.

So should we sack a manager every time we go on a bad run? This is his first bad run of results having done well to keep us up.

No but my point being is he's had plenty of chances to even remotely show signs of adaption, and hasn't really.

[Zip]

It's quite ironic that the people that say "Gomes needs more time!" are the exact same people that were calling for Stam and Clement to go after the exact same period (just before the second international break). Infact, we're doing even worse this season than at the same stage the last two and with the most money spent. Double standards and all that

We spent considerably more money under Stam than we have under Gomes or have you forgotten the January and summer transfer windows in 2017 that placed us in so much debt? I also can’t recall asking for Stam to go in October 2017. That’s a nonsense. I never thought Clement was up to it.

Pretty sure we spent more this summer than two summers ago. And we're even worse now

There were plenty of calls for Stam to go very quickly into the next season. He, like Gomes, isn't learning from past mistakes and it's going to backfire

It’s why I mentioned January and the summer windows. Gomes spent nothing on incomings in January. Stam bought Popa and Ilori. Then we spent loads that summer on Mannone, Edwards, Barrow, Aluko etc etc. Stam was also given until March.

[Zip]

Is that not what we’ve been doing since Charlton? Giving him chances?

Because we certainly haven’t been adapting.

So should we sack a manager every time we go on a bad run? This is his first bad run of results having done well to keep us up.

No but my point being is he's had plenty of chances to even remotely show signs of adaption, and hasn't really.

Yes I agree. Where we differ is that I still think he deserves time over this break to work out what is going wrong and change. If he fails to show that he can adapt he should go. It’s starts with Preston where we must start fast. If we see the usual standing off and dicking around at the back it will be difficult to defend him.

[SCIAG]

I think sacking the manager is both ineffective and not the sort of club I want us to be.

If we can get someone with a proven track record like Hughton or Hughes then that's one thing. But I suspect we'd just get another journeyman off the merry-go-round and be in the same position in 12 months. Stam was our chance to break the cycle but look what happened there.

Let's give someone a chance for once. Imagine if we'd sacked Coppell after that dreadful run in his second season?

That’s true of most clubs though. Doubt anyone wants to keep sacking managers - and personally was Stam in until it became untenable and likewise never called for Clarke, McD or Clement to go of the recent managers

With Gomes I just don’t think he’s the man. Terrible ppg now and I can’t see him turning it around. Nothing in his history suggests he will stay and evolve the club for the better

Obvs agree no point unless we’ve a proper experienced and solid manager lined up

If you don't want us to keep sacking managers, but do want us to sack the manager after every run of bad results, then you want us to keep sacking managers.

[Snowflake Royal]

I would give him a chance to show that he can adapt. He needs to go back to basics.

Is that not what we’ve been doing since Charlton? Giving him chances?

Because we certainly haven’t been adapting.

So should we sack a manager every time we go on a bad run? This is his first bad run of results having done well to keep us up.

Depends on how bad the run is, how good we were before it and what the causes of the bad run are.

There's no mitigation for Gomes. He's been able to bring in a lot of players. He's had 20 odd games the previous season. There's no injury crisis. The problem isn't individual player errors, or a particularly weak individual.

It's not his first poor run either is it. He won 1 of his first 8 games last season.
He won 1 of his last 7 games of last season.

His Reading win rate across 37 games is under 25%

Let's face it, he didn't actually do that well in keeping us up in what you'd want to carry over into the next season did he. Yeah, he did it and it was a hard job, but he still only won 6 out of 26 odd games. And he's currently way off that level of performance.

[Zip]

Is that not what we’ve been doing since Charlton? Giving him chances?

Because we certainly haven’t been adapting.

So should we sack a manager every time we go on a bad run? This is his first bad run of results having done well to keep us up.

Depends on how bad the run is, how good we were before it and what the causes of the bad run are.

There's no mitigation for Gomes. He's been able to bring in a lot of players. He's had 20 odd games the previous season. There's no injury crisis. The problem isn't individual player errors, or a particularly weak individual.

It's not his first poor run either is it. He won 1 of his first 8 games last season.
He won 1 of his last 7 games of last season.

His Reading win rate across 37 games is under 25%

Let's face it, he didn't actually do that well in keeping us up in what you'd want to carry over into the next season did he. Yeah, he did it and it was a hard job, but he still only won 6 out of 26 odd games. And he's currently way off that level of performance.

If we say Gomes first match in charge was Millwall away on Boxing Day our record was W6, L7, D 10. So 28 points from 23 games which was a significant improvement on the first half of the season. We became a lot harder to beat.
So yeah he did do very well to keep us up. You had us as nailed on for relegation.