Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

[Nobby]

If they are not interested then it kind of illustrates that this is fairly pointless.

Hooliganism declined with the loss of terracing. In seats everyone is visible to CCTV. On terracing they can hide.

It will become easier to invade pitches quickly and will just be a step back towards the 1980s. The thought of offering terracing at grounds to the likes of say, Cardiff City fans is not progress.

[biscuitman]

The thought of offering terracing at grounds to the likes of say, Cardiff City fans is not progress.

I faced so problems anytime I went to Cardiff...and they only had terracing a year and a half ago. Not like they were rioting behind that goal every home game. It's not pointless...I know for a fact that Rob Wilson has no interest in football so he sent me a template which said the same things John Redwood sent to me 5 years ago.

[Ian Royal]

The thought of offering terracing at grounds to the likes of say, Cardiff City fans is not progress.

I faced so problems anytime I went to Cardiff...and they only had terracing a year and a half ago. Not like they were rioting behind that goal every home game. It's not pointless...I know for a fact that Rob Wilson has no interest in football so he sent me a template which said the same things John Redwood sent to me 5 years ago.

Personally I'd be inclined to send him a further email suggesting that if he wants to be a decent MP he ought to try keeping himself vaguely up to date and not rely information that's virtually a decade old as an excuse to just ignore the people who's views he's meant to represent.

[roadrunner]

I got a reply from the local Conservative MP on Friday and he clearly hadn't bothered to read my e-mail or the link I attached. In short he wasn't very interested at all, recalled back to what happened at Hillsborough and also mentioned that all seated stadia has reduced football holliganism.

I can't believe that you're using Hillsborough as an argument against safe-standing - that's a frighteningly simplistic and ill-informed view that has been thoroughly discredited, and one which virtually nobody subscribes to any more.

Vote Labour.

[zummerset]

This debate has no legs and little main stream support. Seated at the MADSTAD is fine and the modern way of watching sport. Standing at Elm Park was fine back then too because we didn't know any better and frankly everything was a bit shitter back then too. Anyway getting caught up in surges, pinned against dividers and having to see the pitch when the inevitable giant with tourettes stood in front of you wasn't that great - it was an experience but life has moved on you troglodites.

[Svlad Cjelli]

Ah, abuse! What a refreshing, positive contribution to the debate......

Maybe you'd be right if we were talking about the old-style terraces. But we're not.

But essentially, it's all about choice. You have decided that you like to sit and that's fine. Why does that have to be the only option available for absolutely everyone?

If others do prefer to stand, despite all the reasons you give that you personally prefer not to, why should they be denied that choice?

[Bandini]

Unless we all sit down, football fans will murder us in our beds.

[zummerset]

I don't think anyone is in fear of football fans and certainly not me. You just seem to be harking back to something that was of its time and life has moved on. If it helps - think of other 70/80's icons like for example the British car industry which declined into nothing because frankly the product was very poor and unreliable and other people could do better and improved the product. Football is a product (I can almost see some of you foaming at the mouth now) and the runaway success of the modern football product is proof that people want to do this in a safe and controlled environment (which for most people is that they are quite happy to sit down). I am sure that some fans would like a clothing optional area, some would like a hooligan welcome area and others might want to drink in the stands - now you guys want to stand up which is another minority interest group that clubs don't really have to indulge.

[Ian Royal]

I don't think anyone is in fear of football fans and certainly not me. You just seem to be harking back to something that was of its time and life has moved on. If it helps - think of other 70/80's icons like for example the British car industry which declined into nothing because frankly the product was very poor and unreliable and other people could do better and improved the product. Football is a product (I can almost see some of you foaming at the mouth now) and the runaway success of the modern football product is proof that people want to do this in a safe and controlled environment (which for most people is that they are quite happy to sit down). I am sure that some fans would like a clothing optional area, some would like a hooligan welcome area and others might want to drink in the stands - now you guys want to stand up which is another minority interest group that clubs don't really have to indulge.

can't indulge and the surveys suggest it has plenty of support. It's only obsticles are ignorance and apathy.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

I don't think anyone is in fear of football fans and certainly not me. You just seem to be harking back to something that was of its time and life has moved on. If it helps - think of other 70/80's icons like for example the British car industry which declined into nothing because frankly the product was very poor and unreliable and other people could do better and improved the product. Football is a product (I can almost see some of you foaming at the mouth now) and the runaway success of the modern football product is proof that people want to do this in a safe and controlled environment (which for most people is that they are quite happy to sit down). I am sure that some fans would like a clothing optional area, some would like a hooligan welcome area and others might want to drink in the stands - now you guys want to stand up which is another minority interest group that clubs don't really have to indulge.

Terraces still exist. Has that really passed you by? They are not something that just used to exist years ago. They are being built in brand new stadiums in Germany, and crowds there are rising and have passed ours by a fair distance. German football is just as "modern" as ours and people still go in numbers, liking the improved facilities.

It's not just in Germany either. I went to Japan a couple of years back, and went to a match in a new stadium there that has a substantial terrace at both ends of the ground.

Yes, some people prefer seats. A lot would also prefer to stand. Having terracing gives people a choice. I've no dea why people such as yourself seem to believe that having terracing would mean you'd have to stand up. And I'm, also baffled as to how you believe that terracing is something only a small minority want.


This is modern football, in a modern ground. Most of our stadiums are outdated in comparison

[Nobby]

I used to love terracing but it would be very unsuitable at the Madstad.

I am not a builder but I doubt it's just a case of ripping out seats. You'd need different entrances, disabled areas and probably some type of higher barrier at the front with all the safety issues around that.

Even if the club went along with the idea, they would be spending money to create an area for cheaper tickets. What's Madejski's incentive to do that? Terracing has been given over to seating since the 1960s when grounds were 'improved' for the 1966 world cup.

That's when we should have fought it. Now is rather late. It would be better to concentrate on ticket prices.

[roadrunner]

I used to love terracing but it would be very unsuitable at the Madstad.

I am not a builder but I doubt it's just a case of ripping out seats. You'd need different entrances, disabled areas and probably some type of higher barrier at the front with all the safety issues around that.

On the contrary. The Madejski Stadium has far superior leg room compared to other stadiums in this country that we are better placed than many to be able to add a safety barrier at the front of each row and still allow for suitable seating/standing space. If you look to some of the German stadiums that have incorporated safe standing you'll notice that talk of new entrances etc isn't needed. You'd still get 24,200, only you could opt to sit or stand in the seating space you currently purchase each game.



Looking at that picture they have added this to old terracing, where as we already appear to have the same space required. It's only my opinion of course but this in our case would appear a lot easier than say the likes of Old Trafford, White Hart Lane and Anfield, although theirs would look more like the above unless they did an overhaul.

[West Stand Man]

So, let me summarise a little.

Madejski stadium has the space to do this but it will require a large spend on new seating and barriers so that we can join the 'safe standing' revolution. The benefits to the club is negligible as they will either not increase capacity or will get an insignificant increase (and hence no change in sales to balance the additional capital spend).

The perceived physical risks of doing this (ie going back to standing areas) remain high (among the key stakeholders/ decision makers), in a litigious society itching to sue for damage/ injury caused in any and every scenario.

I am pretty good at developing convincing business cases in some pretty hostile scenarios but I think I'd struggle to take this one on at the moment.

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

If safe standing areas were alowed by the authorities then the onus would change, fans would be able to lobby individual clubs, in the past we have had people say that they would be happy to pay the same to be allowed in a safe standing area.
Could it be that there would be cost benefits as well, less stewarding in the current flashpoint areas.

We already have , as has been said, more footspace than many grounds, and the seats are in place, so we would not need as much work as adding seats to a terrace, just a system of rails to stop movement backwards and forwards.

I will once again suggest that only the North and South would be converted, and then only the areas where the stand is lower down, as the stadium was engineered for sitting, and movement stress could be a problem higher up.

The minor problems that occur in Y25/26 would presumeably go, as the singers would have a nice area behind the goal to stand and get wet in!!

Cost, who knows, but surely £100 per seat would do it.

And as for control, it can still be reserved, it would take time to get used to stewarding it, but it could easily be done.

[West Stand Man]

Let me paraphrase my last post.

" Well Mr Madejski. I'd like you to commit £X,000 pounds on taking out the seating in some parts of the ground to replace it with new safety barriers and a new style of seat that allows us to create standing areas in the stadium. The benefits to you are that the fans will be happy. I can't offer you anything in the way of increased revenue so this is a sunk capital cost - but a reasonably significant section of the crowd will love you for it."

Doesn't really stand up to commercial scrutiny does it?

What might have more chance of success is to lobby for a standing area in any future expansion of the stadium - because that way it is factored directly into the initial procurement.

[Svlad Cjelli]

See my post on page two of this thread, which references The Green Guide on capacities and which clearly shows that the benefit to be offered isn't just a sneering " ... the fans will be happy."

Instead, the potential benefit is an 80% increase in capacity for any area converted to safe-standing. Should the club be promoted and selling capacity every week, which isn't too far-fetched a scenario, then this is a relatively cheap way to increase capacity - much cheaper than a full-blown stadium expansion, anyway. Yes of course there is capital outlay, but the increase in income - assuming the capacity can be sold, of course - will give a payback over a certain number of months, which can be properly considered just like any other business case.

Anyway, you seem to be talking just about the MadStad. But this isn't just about the one stadium. It's about places like Scunny - under the current legislation this is the last season they are allowed a standing area so they have to convert to seating (expensively, cutting their already low capacity) to absolutely no advantage and for no safety reasons - just an out-dated law.

It's also about lots of other grounds where Reading may visit, including potential new builds. You obviously like to sit at matches, and fair play to you, that's your choice - if you go to away matches, where you have no choice on seating, you're likely to have someone in front of you who likes to stand. The benefit to you is that if they have the choice of a safe-standing area they'll go stand there and those people who can't or don't want to sit can do so more easily.

So it's pointless arguing about the suitability of the MadStad - that comes later (maybe with expansion work in future?)) but the law needs changing first, which is where we are now.

[paultheroyal]

[Svlad Cjelli]

Ah, the positive contribution of someone who's lost the argument.....

[paultheroyal]

Ah, the positive contribution of someone who's lost the argument.....

Oh please Dirk.

Backed out for the fear of you embarrassing yourself.

I will leave it at that.

[Svlad Cjelli]

Ah, the positive contribution of someone who's lost the argument.....

Oh please Dirk.

Backed out for the fear of you embarrassing yourself.

I will leave it at that.

Probably just as well, if you consider me posting a detailed, 5 paragraph post, as the very last one above your picture as "backing out for fear of embarrassing myself" .