Oh when the Saints, go...

[Ian Royal]

seriously, I'm crying at their potential plight.

27 point deduction at the start of next season. That would be terrible!

[readingfc13]

seriously, I'm crying at their potential plight.

27 point deduction at the start of next season. That would be terrible!

That's if they make it to the start of next season....

[Ian Royal]

seriously, I'm crying at their potential plight.

27 point deduction at the start of next season. That would be terrible!

That's if they make it to the start of next season....

Now going out of business I wouldn't be happy about. That's just not good.

[Victor Meldrew]

So if they avoid the drop they get deducted 10 points and are relegated.

If they don't avoid the drop then they are deducted 10 points from the start of next season.

And so Southampton return to Division 3 after approx 45 years away, be funny if Norwich slipped down with them as well as they're another side that have been away from that level for about that length of time.

Let's hope Leeds foul up their play off campaign as well.

Shame Leicester were promoted really

Both Norwich and Southampton were in Div 3 when I first started watching RFC so beware of what goes round comes round.
Also Burnley were playing at the top level.

[Tony Le Mesmer]

seriously, I'm crying at their potential plight.

27 point deduction at the start of next season. That would be terrible!

That's if they make it to the start of next season....

Now going out of business I wouldn't be happy about. That's just not good.

But they have effectively gone out of business. If they weren't a football club the administators would be winding up the business and ensuring the people owed money got as much as they can.

Personally, i think if you go into administration you should be straight relegated. In Southamptons case, that means starting in League 2 if they are relegated anyway. The points deductions make a bit of a mockery of the League.

Everyone is getting pissed off with Premier League teams spending beyond their means, Southampton are paying a heavy but deserved price. Expect the like of West Ham, Sunderland, Newcastle to follow suit in the next few years.

[Dirk Gently]

The thing is that the 10 point punishment clearly doesn't stop clubs running up excessive debt that they can't service - the number of clubs to whom it's been applied shows it's not a real disincentive.

All it actually does is punish a club after the event, and make it less likely to be rescued - Southampton with a 10 point deduction is obviously a less worthwhile investment than Southampton without one - so it's a double-whammy that hits a club, and its supporters - when they're already down.

Plus, of course, when Wrexham were punished in this way it was because their owner was trying to force them out of business so he could build houses on their ground, so the deduction actually helped him wreck the club.

What is needed is some kind of early-warning system, so that action can be taken before a club goes into administration, rather than punishing them when it's too late. The Football League has worked out such a system where club's tax records would be available to the FL to check up on, and clubs would have to confirm that they were up-to-date with all tax payments (these are usually the biggest debt problem).

The FL is currently waiting to vote on these proposals - although a certain K Bates of Leeds is canvassing clubs to vote against them!

[Terminal Boardom]

Too many times football clubs live beyond their means. It would be interesting to see how the authorities would react if either say,Liverpool, Man Utd or Chelsea went tits up financially. Would they be hit with a 10 point deduction?

I would think not. Whereas I despise the sheep shagging in-breds down the M4, it was disgusting the way they were treated for doing exactly what Spurs did (illegal payments) yet the punishments were completely different.

[Deathy]

Who'd have thunk it? Both Southampton and Charlton in League one. Crazy!

That's what happens if you don't bounce back up in the two years you have parachute payments.

Norwich possibly too when we're done with them.

3 big clubs we'd have goven anything to swap with 11 years ago. How times change!

[Deathy]

Perhaps we can return the favour and advertise our tickets in the local Southampton rag.

[Terminal Boardom]

Perhaps we can return the favour and advertise our tickets in the local Southampton rag.

Please make it true!

[Deathy]

Perhaps we can return the favour and advertise our tickets in the local Southampton rag.

Please make it true!

We could have a HNA whipround for a few weeks advertising?

[Terminal Boardom]

Perhaps we can return the favour and advertise our tickets in the local Southampton rag.

Please make it true!

We could have a HNA whipround for a few weeks advertising?

I feel a full page ad in the next issue of The Whiff promoting League 1 football on the South Coast coming on

[Arch]

So if they avoid the drop they get deducted 10 points and are relegated.

If they don't avoid the drop then they are deducted 10 points from the start of next season.

And so Southampton return to Division 3 after approx 45 years away, be funny if Norwich slipped down with them as well as they're another side that have been away from that level for about that length of time.

Let's hope Leeds foul up their play off campaign as well.

Shame Leicester were promoted really

But look who will be replacing them. Peterborough and MK Dons. The Championship is like watching the crap teams I used to watch when I first started watching Reading in the 4th division 30 years ago!

Seriously. Peterborough, Doncaster, Barnsley. It's like being back in the fourth division in the seventies.

[Terminal Boardom]

You can add Watford and Swansea to the list.

[Arch]

And Reading

[Ian Royal]

The thing is that the 10 point punishment clearly doesn't stop clubs running up excessive debt that they can't service - the number of clubs to whom it's been applied shows it's not a real disincentive.

All it actually does is punish a club after the event, and make it less likely to be rescued - Southampton with a 10 point deduction is obviously a less worthwhile investment than Southampton without one - so it's a double-whammy that hits a club, and its supporters - when they're already down.

Plus, of course, when Wrexham were punished in this way it was because their owner was trying to force them out of business so he could build houses on their ground, so the deduction actually helped him wreck the club.

What is needed is some kind of early-warning system, so that action can be taken before a club goes into administration, rather than punishing them when it's too late. The Football League has worked out such a system where club's tax records would be available to the FL to check up on, and clubs would have to confirm that they were up-to-date with all tax payments (these are usually the biggest debt problem).

The FL is currently waiting to vote on these proposals - although a certain K Bates of Leeds is canvassing clubs to vote against them!

maybe the FA should put together some proper controls on who owns and runs a club so cnuts like Bates can't get anywhere near one again.

[Dirk Gently]

Too many times football clubs live beyond their means. It would be interesting to see how the authorities would react if either say,Liverpool, Man Utd or Chelsea went tits up financially. Would they be hit with a 10 point deduction?

I would think not. Whereas I despise the sheep shagging in-breds down the M4, it was disgusting the way they were treated for doing exactly what Spurs did (illegal payments) yet the punishments were completely different.

No, if only becasue the PL's standrd points deduction is 8 points - to reflect the fewer games polayed in a season.

But the rule certainly exists in the PL rulebook, so I don't see how they'd not impose it in the event of a PL club going into administration.

[Stranded]

If Soton fight this and win then I would imagine Luton will go to court to as they were punished for the actions of their holding company.

[Barry the bird boggler]

Latest on the BBC site...

Southampton have been effectively relegated after being docked 10 points by the Football League.

The ruling comes after Saints' parent company went into administration, though the club and administrators say they expect to launch an appeal.

Four points off safety with two games to go, Saints will lose 10 points if they stay up in the Championship.

And if they do not avoid finishing in the bottom three then the points penalty will take effect next season.

The south coast outfit had hoped to avoid the punishment as they argued that it was their parent company Southampton Leisure Holdings plc (SLH) which had gone into administration on 2 April - not the football club.

But a League investigation by "independent forensic accountants" found that the football club and SLH were "inextricably linked as one economic entity" and applied their mandatory penalty.

The League also found that: "The holding company has no income of its own; all revenue and expenditure is derived from the operation of Southampton Football Club and the associated stadium company.

"The holding company is solvent in its own right. It only becomes insolvent when account is taken of the position of Southampton football club and the other group companies."

The statement added that there was no alternative other than to invoke the 10-point penalty.

It was also revealed that the company commissioned to look into the matter reported that co-operation with them was withdrawn towards the end of their enquiries.

However, Mark Fry, joint administrator of SLH, insisted he was "shocked and extremely disappointed" with the League's decision to deduct points.

"The football club was not even aware that the investigation had been concluded," he told the BBC.

"We remain very firmly of the view that the rules do not apply, and that the Football League has stretched the rules to meet the circumstances. The football club is not in administration.

"The Football League is a members' organisation, and with any such body of that nature, you run the risk that if there is any grey area, they can interpret the rules as they see fit.

"I think they've interpreted the rules to suit the conclusion they wanted to reach.

"It is expected that an appeal will be launched."

Leon Crouch, who has had two spells as chairman of the football club, hit out at the "terrible timing" of the League's decision.

He told BBC Five Live Sport: "Southampton Leisure Holdings and Southampton Football Club are two separate companies.

"Mark Fry is the administrator for SLH, he's not the administrator for the club. We're not in administration, we're paying our bills and I don't see how they can take these points off us.

"Southampton Football Club was set up so that if this ever happened, we would not have these points deducted - it's the way they have interpreted the rules.

"I think we have a very strong case, I hope we appeal and we now have to focus on winning against Burnley on Saturday, we need to safeguard our Championship status and then hopefully have this decision overturned - then we'll be back where we belong next season."

Responding to Crouch on Five Live Sport, Football League chairman Lord Mawhinney said: "What he said that was of particular interest of me was when he said this structure was set up to avoid the football club having a penalty if it got into financial trouble.

The board is acting on sound legal advice, implementing the rules the clubs themselves wanted put in place

"We have looked carefully at the holding company's annual accounts, which include the football club, we sent forensic accountants into the company - not Football League staff, but people whose expertise is to get to the bottom of relationships between companies - and we have taken external legal advice.

"It's quite clear the holding company and the football club are inextricably linked as one economic entity.

"All of the evidence pointed us to the conclusion that an administrator has been appointed that covers the club or aspects of the club as well as the holding company, and that being the case, we had no flexibility under Football League regulations - we had to apply sporting sanctions.

"It's worth pointing out that those sporting sanctions were agreed by all the clubs. This is not a runaway decision - the board is acting on sound legal advice, implementing the rules the clubs themselves wanted put in place."

The 10-point deduction for Football League clubs entering administration was introduced in 2004, with Wrexham the first League team to suffer a deduction in the 2004/05 season.

In 2007, the rule was amended so that clubs going into administration after the fourth Thursday in March would have the 10-point deduction suspended, after Leeds United and Boston United both entered administration when they were all but relegated, just before the end of the 2006/07 season.

The 72 League clubs' chairmen unanimously backed the measure, so that if a club entering administration after the deadline escaped relegation, the 10 points would be deducted that season - but if they were relegated anyway, 10 points would be taken off the following season.

Mawhinney explained: "The clubs decided the sporting sanctions would have effect - so if a club was already going to be relegated, it ought not to get an advantage by going into administration and taking a 10-point hit when it was going to be relegated anyway."

He also hit back at claims that the club were not given enough notice, adding: "Towards the end of the process, the club withdrew its co-operation from the process, so we had to move to a conclusion one way or the other.

"Once the decision was made, the club were notified before any public statement was made."

Southampton are the fifth Football League team to be deducted points this season - Darlington entered administration, while Luton, Bournemouth and Rotherham were all penalised for coming out of administration without a Company Voluntary Agreement in place, as per the League's insolvency guidelines.

The punishment means Southampton are looking at life in English football's third tier for the first time in 50 years.

The 1976 FA Cup winners enjoyed a 27-year stay in the top flight before the club were relegated in 2005.

BBC South Today's Tony Husband added: "It's been a blame game for the last four years at Southampton since they were relegated from the Premier League, with different sets of directors blaming each other for the ills of the club.

"Former chairman Rupert Lowe is deeply unpopular with many supporters and will undoubtedly shoulder much of the blame, but it would be unfair to say this is a mess totally of his making.

"For 30 years, Southampton were held up as one of the most well-run, friendly and organised clubs, a small-town team punching above its weight by virtue of good management, but this is now a club on its knees - it's been a footballing catastrophe."

[Dirk Gently]

If Soton fight this and win then I would imagine Luton will go to court to as they were punished for the actions of their holding company.

I can't see any grounds on which they'd win an appeal.

After the Wimbledon cock-up, the FL are especially careful to make sure that they're spotless on due-process etc when they do these investigations.