World Cup Finals Draw

[cmonurz]

So in summary, if it weren't for cheating scum, we'd have 3 World Cups and 2 Euros by now.

Right.

[papereyes]

So in summary, if it weren't for cheating scum, we'd have 3 World Cups and 2 Euros by now.

Right.

Be a good little Englander and call them dirty dago foreign wops.

[soggy biscuit]

You're still avoiding the issue that both Beckham and Rooney were fouled prior to their sending off. Are you saying the referee was correct to ignore the players who did the fouling?

I am not avoiding it, they are simply issues that do not need addressing. Every adult is responsible for their own actions, once you are over the age of about 5 you cannot justify hitting someone becasue 'they hit me first'

Beckham & Rooney both struggled to deal mentaly with the big game situation and lashed out while the opposition kept their cool. This is as much part of sport as scoring goals, if you struggle to deal with it you have a good chance of losing. England did.

[Thaumagurist*]

You're still avoiding the issue that both Beckham and Rooney were fouled prior to their sending off. Are you saying the referee was correct to ignore the players who did the fouling?

I am not avoiding it, they are simply issues that do not need addressing. Every adult is responsible for their own actions, once you are over the age of about 5 you cannot justify hitting someone becasue 'they hit me first'

Beckham & Rooney both struggled to deal mentaly with the big game situation and lashed out while the opposition kept their cool. This is as much part of sport as scoring goals, if you struggle to deal with it you have a good chance of losing. England did.

I haven't said that the referee was wrong to send them off. I was simply pointing out that they were fouled and the players who did the fouling got away scot free. I asked you if this was wrong. You still avoided the issue because you think they don't need to be addressed. I say that they do.

[soggy biscuit]

I haven't said that the referee was wrong to send them off. I was simply pointing out that they were fouled and the players who did the fouling got away scot free. I asked you if this was wrong. You still avoided the issue because you think they don't need to be addressed. I say that they do.

They may have fouled in your opinion but the only opinion that really mattered was the refs and they believed they didn't foul.

[Thaumagurist*]

.

[soggy biscuit]

I haven't said that the referee was wrong to send them off. I was simply pointing out that they were fouled and the players who did the fouling got away scot free. I asked you if this was wrong. You still avoided the issue because you think they don't need to be addressed. I say that they do.

They may have fouled in your opinion but the only opinion that really mattered was the refs and they believed they didn't foul.

Well, in that case the referees were oxf*rd wrong.

The world is far from a perfect place my brother

[1960]

Of course the point I was making was that we matched every team there except Brazil, not that we were cheated out of it by Johnny Foreigner. It was a response to the miserablists who criticise England at every opportunity and try to pretend the other countries are way better than us.

[cmonurz]

It's right up my street but I really can't be fcuked to do it at the moment - I'd be interested in our record against a top handful of teams, relative to the records of those other teams against the rest - a league table of results against each other for the big teams, if you like.

Maybe difficult to compare between continents, but Europe might be a good place to start.

I can't remember many positive results against Germany, Spain, Italy, Portgual, Holland, France in the last few years, so I'd dare say we'd be near the bottom.

[Thaumagurist*]

I can't remember many positive results against Germany, Spain, Italy, Portgual, Holland, France in the last few years, so I'd dare say we'd be near the bottom.

We beat Germany 5-1 at Munich and also beat them in Euro 2000.

Beat Spain on Penalties in Euro 96, but other than that, can't remember any other competitive game against them.
Beat Holland 4-1 at Euro 96. We can't have played them in many competitive games since then?
Italy? I remember us holding them to a draw to qualify for the world cup in 1998. Don't think we've played many competitive games against them since?
As for France, we've only played them once in a competitive game since Euro '92 (which was a 0-0 draw, IIRC) and that was Euro 2004 (They only won because Gerrard passed the ball to Henry).
The two Portuguese victories over us were won on penalties, so not outright victories.

[cmonurz]

Well I was going to include friendlies to get a good sample. They might not be 'as competitive' as tournament games, but by their own nature they are games the big sides want to win, so worthy of inclusion imho.

Holland 2-2 England
Spain 2-0 England
Germany 1-2 England
France 1-0 England
England 1-2 Germany
England 0-1 Spain
Holland 1-1 England
England 0-0 Portugal
England 0-0 Holland
Spain 1-0 England
Portugal 1-1 England
France 2-1 England
Portugal 1-1 England
England 1-1 Portugal
England 1-2 Italy
Holland 1-1 England
Germany 1-5 England
England 0-2 Holland
England 3-0 Spain
Italy 1-0 England
England 0-1 Germany
France 1-1 England
Germany 0-1 England
Portugal 3-2 England

Results against my list of top European sides since 01/01/2000.

P24 W4 D9 L11 F24 A28

Uninspiring to say the least. Our win in Germany last year was our first victory over a major European nation for 7 years. On the plus side, 3 of those 4 wins were competitive fixtures.

[TBM]

Euro 2004 (They only won because Gerrard passed the ball to Henry).

And the fact Beckham missed a penalty and James gave one away!!

[Thaumagurist*]

Results against my list of top European sides since 01/01/2000.

P24 W4 D9 L11 F24 A28

Uninspiring to say the least. Our win in Germany last year was our first victory over a major European nation for 7 years. On the plus side, 3 of those 4 wins were competitive fixtures.

And how many of those draws and defeats were competitive fixtures?

[cmonurz]

Go and check, its on the FA website. As I said, to get a reasonable sample, I've included friendlies. As you already indicate, we have barely played the top nations competitively. It's fair enough to include friendlies, its a level playing field.

[papereyes]

I can't remember many positive results against Germany, Spain, Italy, Portgual, Holland, France in the last few years, so I'd dare say we'd be near the bottom.

Since WC 1998,

Germany - QF, GS, 2nd, GS, 3rd, 2nd
Spain - GS, QF,QF, GS, R16, 1st
Italy - QF, 2nd, R16, GS, 1st, QF
Portugal - DNQ, SF,GS,2nd, 4th, QF
Holland - 4th, SF, DNQ, SF, R16, QF
France - 1st, 1st, GS, QF, QF, GS

England - R16, GS, QF, QF, QF, DNQ

The main thing I see there is lower lows (well, really? MacLOLaren) - failure to qualify from the group stages or at all - but all seem capable of higher highs.
Spacey would give his right testicle to swap 2 QF defeats for a win but sent home early the next time, imo.

I can't actually remember England ever beating Portugal btw

And of course, the two missing wins are Greece (a fluke? or a team working together against the odds) and Brazil (who would turn most England teams into a whinging bitch as they pummelled - I say - pummelled their back doors in).

[papereyes]

Results against my list of top European sides since 01/01/2000.

P24 W4 D9 L11 F24 A28

Uninspiring to say the least. Our win in Germany last year was our first victory over a major European nation for 7 years. On the plus side, 3 of those 4 wins were competitive fixtures.

And how many of those draws and defeats were competitive fixtures?

If England are so good, how come they've barely got past one of these teams in the last decade or so when it really matters?

[papereyes]

Italy? I remember us holding them to a draw to qualify for the world cup in 1998. Don't think we've played many competitive games against them since?

What have Italy won since 1998 that England haven't come close to?

The final of which competition has Italy played in, since 1998 (indeed ever), that England haven't.

I actually remember a Massimo Maccarone-inspired Italy dicking us in a friendly. LOL.

And, looking at the records - Germany, and Spain are more consistent than England, Italy and France arguably so but they've won the damned things so that's a plus leaving Portugal and Holland who have passed the QF stage 3 times in the last decade and a bit whereas England have, erm, not.

So I retract my first conclusion.

It was bollocks.

[Thaumagurist*]

Italy? I remember us holding them to a draw to qualify for the world cup in 1998. Don't think we've played many competitive games against them since?

What have Italy won since 1998 that England haven't come close to?

The final of which competition has Italy played in, since 1998 (indeed ever), that England haven't.

I was talking about our games against them, not comparing our achievements with theirs.

[Stranded]

Well neither make for particularly good reading.

[papereyes]

Italy? I remember us holding them to a draw to qualify for the world cup in 1998. Don't think we've played many competitive games against them since?

What have Italy won since 1998 that England haven't come close to?

The final of which competition has Italy played in, since 1998 (indeed ever), that England haven't.

I was talking about our games against them, not comparing our achievements with theirs.

If we beat them when it matters, how have they won more shiny things than us?