BFTG United (A)

[Elm Park Kid]

I would put it like this:

I enjoyed most of the United game in a way that I haven't enjoyed a Reading game in a long time. I thought that we played exciting football, that we fought hard given the opponents and that we ended the match with a lot of respect. Defenders looked a bit clueless at times, but then they were up against the best forwards in the world. Fair play to the lads.

However, I also think that game was a bit of a 'on-off' and was very different to the types of matches we face in the league. I'm not taking it as evidence that we're 'turned a corner' or anything like that.

[Maneki Neko]

spot on

[stealthpapes]

Well, except for spelling 'one' wrong.

[Millsy]

I’m surprised anyone cares that much about the penalty decision as to spend pages and pages arguing about it.

Have to admit to not really liking VAR in its current form though. Who wants to sit through 3 minutes of the ref decided what to do? Not like in cricket where you can actually watch the decision making process, and actually can add to the atmosphere

It's just a discussion.

Exactly mate and I thank you.

To be completely honest whilst I do accept my interpretation of the laws for reasons I’ve stated, amd we respectfully agree to disagree, I’m not even bothered in the slightest and think the best team won. We have bigger fish to fry than that game.

With all the negativity that’s been going on truth is I was quite excited to see our boys put in a good shift and was quite happy to start a good old intellectual footy debate with fellow Reading fans to distract from the shite we are in.

I invited Ian into this discussion specifically for this purpose as I knew I’d get a good discussion going, even if we disagree.

In truth, shit as this may sound, I was relieved to see us lose that match so we can focus on the league.

You Rs!!!!!

Now Hound if you want to discuss VAR bring it on. I’m a massive fan of it!

[Hound]

Ha, no not really

[Snowflake Royal]

I think the problem with VAR is that there's a ref involved still making decisions. So now you've got two people looking at the same thing with slightly different opinions. And on top of that they both know the same thing will be watched on TV, in slow mo where everything looks worse, and by people who don't know the laws.

It should be really good, but implementation hasn't been strong enough. And having it in some games but not others within the same round of the same competition is baffling.

[Maneki Neko]

that last bit is the key.

it shouldn't matter if our tie was at Macclesfield town or Manchester utd
in this case it ended up mattering

[Duffy]

I would put it like this:

I enjoyed most of the United game in a way that I haven't enjoyed a Reading game in a long time. I thought that we played exciting football, that we fought hard given the opponents and that we ended the match with a lot of respect. Defenders looked a bit clueless at times, but then they were up against the best forwards in the world. Fair play to the lads.

However, I also think that game was a bit of a 'on-off' and was very different to the types of matches we face in the league. I'm not taking it as evidence that we're 'turned a corner' or anything like that.

We played better football than United. Being the Premier League side they were more clinical as to be expected. I felt we were very lightweight up front, which is unusual for a Championship side. You'd expect more physicality. Barring a few spoons over the bar most things fizzled out in the last 3rd of the pitch for us.

[Snowflake Royal]

that last bit is the key.

it shouldn't matter if our tie was at Macclesfield town or Manchester utd
in this case it ended up mattering

Dunno.i reckon Macclesfield would have beaten us too.

[tmesis]

I think the problem with VAR is that there's a ref involved still making decisions. So now you've got two people looking at the same thing with slightly different opinions. And on top of that they both know the same thing will be watched on TV, in slow mo where everything looks worse, and by people who don't know the laws.

That bit is fundamental to much of the criticism of VAR. You hear pundits saying the ref has got it wrong, or that the they don't understand how the ref reached a decision, but 9 times out of ten that's simply because the "expert" in the studio doesn't actually know the rules properly.

It should be really good, but implementation hasn't been strong enough. And having it in some games but not others within the same round of the same competition is baffling.

Not really. Some clubs just don't have all the equipment for it.

I don't get the "every game or none" angle with regards to VAR or goal line technology. Imagine there are two games, one with VAR, and one without, and in each one, a goal for the home team is initially incorrectly disallowed for offside.

Which is is better...?

a) one home team has the decision corrected, but the other misses out.
b) both home teams suffer incorrect decisions

Those who say "all or none" are saying "b" is better, which is crazy.

[Snowflake Royal]

I think the problem with VAR is that there's a ref involved still making decisions. So now you've got two people looking at the same thing with slightly different opinions. And on top of that they both know the same thing will be watched on TV, in slow mo where everything looks worse, and by people who don't know the laws.

That bit is fundamental to much of the criticism of VAR. You hear pundits saying the ref has got it wrong, or that the they don't understand how the ref reached a decision, but 9 times out of ten that's simply because the "expert" in the studio doesn't actually know the rules properly.

It should be really good, but implementation hasn't been strong enough. And having it in some games but not others within the same round of the same competition is baffling.

Not really. Some clubs just don't have all the equipment for it.

I don't get the "every game or none" angle with regards to VAR or goal line technology. Imagine there are two games, one with VAR, and one without, and in each one, a goal for the home team is initially incorrectly disallowed for offside.

Which is is better...?

a) one home team has the decision corrected, but the other misses out.
b) both home teams suffer incorrect decisions

Those who say "all or none" are saying "b" is better, which is crazy.

No problem with it in PL games but not Championship etc.

But there is absolutely no way that one team in the exact same competition should have an advantage because of the officiating technology compared to another.

It's like saying (Christ I hate this phrase) at FA Cup games held at PL grounds you can have 7 subs, but at at League One grounds you can only have 6. oxf*rd. Off. Same rules for everyone competing against each other.

[Nameless]

I an’t Quite understand the claim that VAR can’tbe Used at every game in the cupbecause not every club has the equipment.
I’m pretty certain there were cameras at every single game....
More of an issue might be finding enough officials to do the VARing in Stockly Park.
Would rather they didn’t have it at all though and made efforts to address some of the real deep seated issues in the game. VAR just changes the problems, it doesn’t solve them.

[tmesis]

I think the problem with VAR is that there's a ref involved still making decisions. So now you've got two people looking at the same thing with slightly different opinions. And on top of that they both know the same thing will be watched on TV, in slow mo where everything looks worse, and by people who don't know the laws.

That bit is fundamental to much of the criticism of VAR. You hear pundits saying the ref has got it wrong, or that the they don't understand how the ref reached a decision, but 9 times out of ten that's simply because the "expert" in the studio doesn't actually know the rules properly.

It should be really good, but implementation hasn't been strong enough. And having it in some games but not others within the same round of the same competition is baffling.

Not really. Some clubs just don't have all the equipment for it.

I don't get the "every game or none" angle with regards to VAR or goal line technology. Imagine there are two games, one with VAR, and one without, and in each one, a goal for the home team is initially incorrectly disallowed for offside.

Which is is better...?

a) one home team has the decision corrected, but the other misses out.
b) both home teams suffer incorrect decisions

Those who say "all or none" are saying "b" is better, which is crazy.

No problem with it in PL games but not Championship etc.

But there is absolutely no way that one team in the exact same competition should have an advantage because of the officiating technology compared to another.

It's like saying (Christ I hate this phrase) at FA Cup games held at PL grounds you can have 7 subs, but at at League One grounds you can only have 6. oxf*rd. Off. Same rules for everyone competing against each other.

So you really believe in the scenario I outlined above, it'd be better to have two incorrect decisions instead of one?

Two team competing against each other, yes, should have the same conditions. If they are two different games, they are not competing against each other.

Also, VAR does not give the teams in the tie with VAR any advantage. You have exactly the same chance of winning with VAR as without it. With VAR, it just lessons the chance of the tie being settled by a refereeing mistake.

The rules are also exactly the same with VAR as without VAR.

I an’t Quite understand the claim that VAR can’tbe Used at every game in the cupbecause not every club has the equipment.
I’m pretty certain there were cameras at every single game....
More of an issue might be finding enough officials to do the VARing in Stockly Park.
Would rather they didn’t have it at all though and made efforts to address some of the real deep seated issues in the game. VAR just changes the problems, it doesn’t solve them.

There are cameras at every game. There are just not the same number of cameras.

[Nameless]

So why would there being a different number of cameras be an issue ?

[Hendo]

So why would there being a different number of cameras be an issue ?

Not sure if serious...

[Nameless]

So why would there being a different number of cameras be an issue ?

Not sure if serious...

Yes.

To use the same logic as previously.

If a game has no VAR then the chances of spotting an error are zero.

If a game is covered by 3 cameras the chances of correcting an error are better than zero.

Why would you not use the cameras available if it potentially prevents an error ?

As Cloughie said, ‘We should not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.’

[Tails]

That bit is fundamental to much of the criticism of VAR. You hear pundits saying the ref has got it wrong, or that the they don't understand how the ref reached a decision, but 9 times out of ten that's simply because the "expert" in the studio doesn't actually know the rules properly.


Not really. Some clubs just don't have all the equipment for it.

I don't get the "every game or none" angle with regards to VAR or goal line technology. Imagine there are two games, one with VAR, and one without, and in each one, a goal for the home team is initially incorrectly disallowed for offside.

Which is is better...?

a) one home team has the decision corrected, but the other misses out.
b) both home teams suffer incorrect decisions

Those who say "all or none" are saying "b" is better, which is crazy.

No problem with it in PL games but not Championship etc.

But there is absolutely no way that one team in the exact same competition should have an advantage because of the officiating technology compared to another.

It's like saying (Christ I hate this phrase) at FA Cup games held at PL grounds you can have 7 subs, but at at League One grounds you can only have 6. oxf*rd. Off. Same rules for everyone competing against each other.

So you really believe in the scenario I outlined above, it'd be better to have two incorrect decisions instead of one?

Two team competing against each other, yes, should have the same conditions. If they are two different games, they are not competing against each other.

Also, VAR does not give the teams in the tie with VAR any advantage. You have exactly the same chance of winning with VAR as without it. With VAR, it just lessons the chance of the tie being settled by a refereeing mistake.

The rules are also exactly the same with VAR as without VAR.

I an’t Quite understand the claim that VAR can’tbe Used at every game in the cupbecause not every club has the equipment.
I’m pretty certain there were cameras at every single game....
More of an issue might be finding enough officials to do the VARing in Stockly Park.
Would rather they didn’t have it at all though and made efforts to address some of the real deep seated issues in the game. VAR just changes the problems, it doesn’t solve them.

There are cameras at every game. There are just not the same number of cameras.

Yeh, Snowflake Royal is having a bit of a mare here.

[Tails]

I'll clarify that by saying that it's not the rules that are different (what constitutes an offside) , but the mechanism for adjudicating decisions (can it be picked up by VAR and not just the lineman). By your comparison, we should be ensuring pitch quality is exactly the same throughout, regardless of stadia.

[Snowflake Royal]

Nope. Not buying what you're selling.

[Hendo]

So why would there being a different number of cameras be an issue ?

Not sure if serious...

Yes.

To use the same logic as previously.

If a game has no VAR then the chances of spotting an error are zero.

If a game is covered by 3 cameras the chances of correcting an error are better than zero.

Why would you not use the cameras available if it potentially prevents an error ?

As Cloughie said, ‘We should not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.’

Some grounds, especially lower down the leagues will only have one camera at the ground, you can’t tell me that it’s sensible to have VAR at those games?

Even if a game had three cameras (one on the sideline and one on each box) it would still be very difficult to use VAR for offsides as the angle would cause all sorts of issues.

I think for VAR to work, you would have to have at least 6 cameras and that just doesn’t happen at grounds in the lower leagues.