Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

[WestYorksRoyal]

PNE, often held up as a model Championship club these days, released their accounts today. £12m net loss and £11m equity contributed by the owner. Perfectly safe for FFP given many costs are excluded and all fine so long as the owner is committed, but still dependent upon the owner who's put in close to £80m since taking over. And they are viewed as a well run club.

A sustainable Championship is a relegated Championship club, except when there are crisis clubs to finish above.

[Sutekh]

Man City have apparently been told when their hearing will be held but for some reason no one is allowed to know

Some football finance experts are saying that the offences are so serious that enforced relegation is a certainty and would be the least of their worries.

[bcubed]

https://www.westbromnews.co.uk/2024/01/ ... hawthorns/

Not sure if the WBA situation has been mentioned on this thread

[YorkshireRoyal99]

PNE, often held up as a model Championship club these days, released their accounts today. £12m net loss and £11m equity contributed by the owner. Perfectly safe for FFP given many costs are excluded and all fine so long as the owner is committed, but still dependent upon the owner who's put in close to £80m since taking over. And they are viewed as a well run club.

A sustainable Championship is a relegated Championship club, except when there are crisis clubs to finish above.

I think they posted losses of around £17m a season or two ago however, I suspect they may be sailing fairly close to the wind. But yes, they aren't exactly a club I've viewed as being big spenders though either.

[Winston Biscuit]

was listening to some lawyer matey on Talksport late yesterday and he said Everton not only have this 2nd charge to deal with shortly, but their accounts also show already they have f*cked up a 3rd time so when it comes to the PL officially reviewing them in the future they are going to get hit a 3rd time with a punishment

Also said the Man City situation was so complex that its hard to see how they will be found guilty (but did say if they somehow were, they would be chucked out of the PL in his opinion)

[WestYorksRoyal]

Kieran Maguire blames the PL for the Man City mess. The day before they were due to face a select committee, they announced 115 charges as evidence they can regulate themselves. The problem with 115 charges is, you have to provide evidence of all them and if a club is being intentionally obstructive like City are, you give them enough content to delay everything for a lifetime. They should have prioritised a handful of the most serious charges.

Everything the EFL and PL do to prove that football can regulate itself seems to prove how inadequate they are.

[Uke]

I wonder how the 'ammers got such a favourable deal.

Think it was more down to the self-publicist, who signed off on the deal between IT lessons

[Sutekh]

Timeline for the building of the London Stadium and the subsequent palava over who got to play there:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... wen-gibson

[Brogue]

We often hear the EFL Championship is a financial black hole - but how bad really is it?

In an attempt to visualise the problem, here's a grid showing pre-tax losses over the last decade

Key figs:

Collective net loss: £2.9 BILLION

Annual loss posted by 181/214 clubs

For now, your top (well, bottom) five:

Reading (£215.4m)
Fulham (£211.2m)
Nottingham Forest (£197.2m)
Middlesbrough (£165.3m)
Stoke City (£164.3m)

(Obviously this is only for seasons they were in Champ)

[Sutekh]

We often hear the EFL Championship is a financial black hole - but how bad really is it?

In an attempt to visualise the problem, here's a grid showing pre-tax losses over the last decade

Key figs:

Collective net loss: £2.9 BILLION

Annual loss posted by 181/214 clubs

For now, your top (well, bottom) five:

Reading (£215.4m)
Fulham (£211.2m)
Nottingham Forest (£197.2m)
Middlesbrough (£165.3m)
Stoke City (£164.3m)

(Obviously this is only for seasons they were in Champ)

Stoke -88.3 (and that's with parachute payments at the time)

[Winston Biscuit]

Southampton have filed their financial accounts for the year up to June 2023, recording a pre-tax loss of £70.5m. £93.5m loss after tax.

Approximately £14.6m costs were incurred in settlements to the former clubs of new coaches hired - Jones and co.

crikey

[Pepe the Horseman]

Leicester could get a points deduction next season, due to PSR breach.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... deduction/

Seems like it could get messy.

[Stranded]

Leicester could get a points deduction next season, due to PSR breach.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... deduction/

Seems like it could get messy.

Given their outright refusal to co-operate with the EFL and them getting away with it via a loophole then I'll have very little sympathy if their promotion (and the vast amount of money they get) results with them having to sell a couple of players or take the penalty and see if they can still stay up.

In these instances, it hardly seems like a punishment but a business decision to carry the risk.

[Winston Biscuit]

iirc the idea of clubs being docked points for going into administration was only brought in because Leicester went into admin to help clear debts as they were on their way to promotion about 15-20 years ago. I remember there being a lot of unhappiness at the time of how they went about doing this.

[Sutekh]

Leicester could get a points deduction next season, due to PSR breach.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... deduction/

Seems like it could get messy.

Given their outright refusal to co-operate with the EFL and them getting away with it via a loophole then I'll have very little sympathy if their promotion (and the vast amount of money they get) results with them having to sell a couple of players or take the penalty and see if they can still stay up.

In these instances, it hardly seems like a punishment but a business decision to carry the risk.

Issue might be that the PL would probably fail to backup the FL making any punishment pretty laughable. Another mess that highlights the utter stupidity of two organisations running what amounts to the same competition.

[Stranded]

iirc the idea of clubs being docked points for going into administration was only brought in because Leicester went into admin to help clear debts as they were on their way to promotion about 15-20 years ago. I remember there being a lot of unhappiness at the time of how they went about doing this.

Yep, Leicester going in to admin, being able to keep all the players they couldn't afford and then get promoted was the case that brought point deductions in for all.

Have to give their lawyers credit, they are pretty skilled at finding these loopholes - though, by all accounts today, unless they raise a decent wedge of sales before end of June, it will just delay and punishment as they are likely in breach of PL rules anyway.

[Dirk Gently]

iirc the idea of clubs being docked points for going into administration was only brought in because Leicester went into admin to help clear debts as they were on their way to promotion about 15-20 years ago. I remember there being a lot of unhappiness at the time of how they went about doing this.

Yep, Leicester going in to admin, being able to keep all the players they couldn't afford and then get promoted was the case that brought point deductions in for all.

Have to give their lawyers credit, they are pretty skilled at finding these loopholes - though, by all accounts today, unless they raise a decent wedge of sales before end of June, it will just delay and punishment as they are likely in breach of PL rules anyway.

I think it was slightly longer than that - iirc the debts were tied up with building the new stadium, and that opened in 2002.

As a point of interest, the size of the deduction for administration was decided upon in a typically unscientific way - it was done at an FL AGM, and all 72 club reps were asked, in turn, how many points they thought should be deducted for going into administration. They then took an average of all 72 answers and rounded it to the nearest round number, which was 10.

The PL then had to do the same, and they simply said "we play 38 games not 46", so if their value is 10 we'll pro-rata it and that came out at eight.

[Clyde1998]

Leicester could get a points deduction next season, due to PSR breach.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... deduction/

Seems like it could get messy.

I maintain the La Liga method of giving clubs spending limits at the start of the season is what's needed.

From what I can work out their calculation is based on the following calculation:
Squad Cost Limit = Revenue - Non-Sporting Expenses - Debt Payments + 40% of Transfer Profit + Asset Sales (up to 5% of Revenue)

With squad cost being calculated as:
Squad Cost = Salaries + Image Rights + Agent Fees + Player Amortisation + Social Security + Compensation

The squad cost relates to the (up to) twenty-five players registered to play in league matches (not sure if there's a free pass for younger players), so any player who can't be registered cannot play in league matches - providing an instant sporting punishment for the clubs for overspending.

[Sutekh]

Leicester could get a points deduction next season, due to PSR breach.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... deduction/

Seems like it could get messy.

I maintain the La Liga method of giving clubs spending limits at the start of the season is what's needed.

From what I can work out their calculation is based on the following calculation:
Squad Cost Limit = Revenue - Non-Sporting Expenses - Debt Payments + 40% of Transfer Profit + Asset Sales (up to 5% of Revenue)

With squad cost being calculated as:
Squad Cost = Salaries + Image Rights + Agent Fees + Player Amortisation + Social Security + Compensation

The squad cost relates to the (up to) twenty-five players registered to play in league matches (not sure if there's a free pass for younger players), so any player who can't be registered cannot play in league matches - providing an instant sporting punishment for the clubs for overspending.

Still say Chelsea will be really happy that they're failing this season. Failing to qualify for European competition next season means they'll avoid UEFA's even more stringent PSR otherwise they could be looking at having to try and offload more than just what the PL want them to offload to stay "honest".

[Franchise FC]

Outside of the big clubs, how many major trophy winners in the last 30ish years have survived without a massive adverse financial impact.

Portsmouth
Wigan
Birmingham
Blackburn
Leicester (apparently in some FFP trouble)
Everton

Those that seem to have ‘survived’ success
Swansea ?
Middlesbrough ?